501c3 = "Being in Covenant with Baal"

Pavel Mosko

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Also, please explain why the Lord commands us to pay taxes, but if we get permission, for our church, from the government, then we don't have to pay taxes: why is that?

Well that one is easy. Jesus didn't command us to pay taxes but to "Render unto Cesar, what is Cesar's...". Our government was set up for the freedom of religion, so in this case Cesar is saying "as an institution you don't have to pay taxes unless you are lobbying or doing political campaigning". And for most Christians that should be fine, because "our kingdom is not of this World".


Interesting enough on the general topic Jesus also said this

Matthew 17:24-27
New International Version


The Temple Tax
24 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma temple tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”

25 “Yes, he does,” he replied.

When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”

26 “From others,” Peter answered.

“Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him. 27 “But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”
 
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Religiot

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Well that one is easy. Jesus didn't command us to pay taxes but to "Render unto Cesar, what is Cesar's...". Our government was set up for the freedom of religion, so in this case Cesar is saying "as an institution you don't have to pay taxes unless you are lobbying or doing political campaigning". And for most Christians that should be fine, because "our kingdom is not of this World".


Interesting enough on the general topic Jesus also said this

Matthew 17:24-27
New International Version


The Temple Tax
24 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma temple tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”

25 “Yes, he does,” he replied.

When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”

26 “From others,” Peter answered.

“Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him. 27 “But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”
That's where I think my misunderstanding lies: I think of the church, not as an institution, but solely as people; thus I cannot comprehend how the church may be exempt, but the people not.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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That's where I think my misunderstanding lies: I think of the church, not as an institution, but solely as people; thus I cannot comprehend how the church may be exempt, but the people not.

Even in the days of the Bible they had various taxes on the citizens...

Even when Israel was a theocracy with no King they had them, only they were labelled as various offerings required in Torah. The Levites basically acted like bureaucrats and their salaries were paid by the tithe and other offerings.
 
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Religiot

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Even in the days of the Bible they had various taxes on the citizens...

Even when Israel was a theocracy with no King they had them, only they were labelled as various offerings required in Torah. The Levites basically acted like bureaucrats and their salaries were paid by the tithe and other offerings.
That's what I mean: Israel was the church, the people are supposed to tithe and support the priests, who living, by law, was solely from the tithes and offerings.

Israel, however, was not to be taxed for it's existence by some foreign power, nor exempt from tax by the same--Israel was the church, solely by the prerogative of God.
 
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topher694

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That's where I think my misunderstanding lies: I think of the church, not as an institution, but solely as people; thus I cannot comprehend how the church may be exempt, but the people not.
Primarily and spiritually you are correct. Organizationally there are laws of the land we must all follow or there will be consequences. There are rules (laws of the land) when it comes to churches that apply regardless of if you are a 501c3 or not. The some of the reasoning for this has been mentioned in this thread already.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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? Kenneth Copeland Ministries is a 501(c)(3) and his ministry is one of the ministries that thumbed their nose at the IRS and gave them nothing.
Thumbed their nose at congressional subpoenas not the IRS. Yes you are correct.
 
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Religiot

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Primarily and spiritually you are correct. Organizationally there are laws of the land we must all follow or there will be consequences. There are rules (laws of the land) when it comes to churches that apply regardless of if you are a 501c3 or not. The some of the reasoning for this has been mentioned in this thread already.
The laws comprising the law of this land are collectively called The Constitution: any "laws" contradicting the actual law of this land, is an illegal law: the composing and enforcing of illegal laws, are high crimes, that carry severe penalties, most often of which is death.

The law of this land remains a beacon to those seeking the last place on earth where freedom is protected as an inherent right.

By craft, I fear, the law of this land may be, soon, successfully undermined, permanently.

May God continue to have mercy, so that my kids don't have to face the hell that's soon coming. Amen.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Donors to a church that isn't clearing qualified to be a 501(c)(3) may have problems getting their contributions accepted as a deduction by the IRS. If they were to be audited it is on them to prove the status of their church if it's not recorded with the IRS as a 501(c)(3).
That of course is the scare tactic used to coerce churches into registering. I always want to bring this question to the forefront. Are IRS regulations or Gods standards higher as far as the accountability factor of a church is concerned. ? I maintained that the IRS standards are pretty low in comparison. I would present hundreds and hundreds of horrible registered church scandals as proof. My point is not that registered churches are somehow less accountable. But to point out that being registered with the authorities doesn’t mean jack as far as accountability is concerned.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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My observations have been that those who get upset about 501c3 are often those who can't get a 501c3 exemption or who have had IRS troubles.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes I can imagine that.

I was over hearing some of the cross talk of @topher694 with another guy on different church problems or bureaucratic problems and I've heard of problems of people who do not go with 501c3 that have problems. In a nutshell, there is the issue of how organizations are suppose to behave on paper vs. how they actually work in real life. So even though it is suppose to be your theoretical Constitutional right to not use 501c3 for your ministry etc. There often is this unofficial belief that you have to, and this is not just with your average joe but even folks at the IRS!


It's been a while, since I've read on things like the older 508 tax system and the few religious groups that use it, but I seem to recall lots of nightmare stories of people talking about their experience dealing with banks, accountants, IRS officials that don't know about the older system and that it is legal to use etc. They basically are always steered over to the new system as some kind of peer pressure, bureaucratic red tape road block etc. And well this should not really be a surprise to any of us. We tend to know the things we grow up with, or are officially taught to us as far history goes. And people today have been born and raised long after 501c3 was passed, and sort of unofficially indoctrinated that this is the only way to do things etc.


I will say this though, this thread was very educational knowing that for many would be ministers even a 508 may be unnecessary.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Since we are talking about churches registering with the government in the sense of an unnecessary entanglement. There is one sure fire way to end all this nonsense where outside of safety regulations. No business, church, individual or corporation would have any dealings with the federal government at all. Repeal the 16th amendment and replace it with an amendment for a national retail only sales tax collected by the states and the states send the feds their share. Congress sets its rate. I have a small website that explains it. it would make all our lives so much simpler. Here are the first few paragraphs followed by the link:

Can you imagine a world where you personally, your business or even a big corporation have no dealings with the federal government and pay them no taxes? A world where no individual, business, corporation or organization has to keep any records for the federal government. Where the right given to the federal government to directly lay a tax on anyone or any entity is taken away? "Crazy" you say, "can't happen; we need the federal government." I agree, we need the federal government. This isn't about taking away their money. It's about getting rid their power over us, our life or business to run absolutely everything and steal your time away from us. How? Very simple. Repealing the 16th amendment and adding a new amendment were the states collect a retail only sales tax and send it to the federal government. Congress sets its rate, the states collect point of sale retail sales taxes that almost all states already do. The only records that would need kept are gross sales receipts from retail businesses. They collect the tax from the buyer like they almost all do already only it would be substantially more since the federal governments tax would now be included. Now before anyone cries fowl. The federal government will still be getting as much as it is now if not more and individuals will not be paying any more than they are now in taxes. Nor would what you pay for goods go up as I'll explain why later. What about state income taxes? Any state that didn't faze it out would simply go out of business. No one will live or do business in a state that requires hundreds of hours of their time if the state next door doesn't. Free market economics.




Many might ask what's the point then if they are still getting as much and we are paying as much. The point is huge, life changing, the most revolutionary thing for the good that could happen to our nation. We are so conditioned to our present circumstances that I think most people who read the first paragraph didn't comprehend what it said and means on a practical level. As an individual. You will never have to have any dealings, any paperwork regarding taxes, income, fee's or anything like them with the federal government again. There will never be an April 15th in your life again. That file cabinet or computer filled with records to prove how much money you made and all your legitimate deductions will disappear. You are a free person. The federal government doesn't even need to know your name unless you are getting money from them. This however is just the icing on the cake.

True Tax Reform
 
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Religiot

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This guy takes things too far!

Churches should not be involved in political activity in any country. We should be on the mission that Christ called us to.

If a government allows churches to be tax free and the rules governing that do not hamper our mission as given by jesus there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of the world. We live in the world but are not of the world.
To be free of one is to bear the other: nothing is free, especially when 'freely' given by a government.
 
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nolidad

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To be free of one is to bear the other: nothing is free, especially when 'freely' given by a government.


True. When a church is a 501 3C org. It is supposed to refrain from certain activities, which when you look at them they are things that a church should only have minimal activity in anyway! At least in America churches are not taxed like for profit orgs and still have to adhere to many burdensome govt. regs. that will probably change as well!
 
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Religiot

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True. When a church is a 501 3C org. It is supposed to refrain from certain activities, which when you look at them they are things that a church should only have minimal activity in anyway! At least in America churches are not taxed like for profit orgs and still have to adhere to many burdensome govt. regs. that will probably change as well!
The church has nothing to do with earthly governments, only the Great Mother harlot, and her harlot daughters, are involved with earthly governments: the true church is the virgin bride of Christ, and her allegiance is solely to the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
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nolidad

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The church has nothing to do with earthly governments, only the Great Mother harlot, and her harlot daughters, are involved with earthly governments: the true church is the virgin bride of Christ, and her allegiance is solely to the Kingdom of Heaven.


But we are to be in the world, but not of the world. We are also to submit to the authorities. And if they allow tax breaks that a church can take advantage of without compromising our Divine mission, there is nothing wrong with taking it. It starts as the churches money and the government simply says churches do not have to give their money to the govt. If it compromises our ability to glorify God and spread the good news, we should not take it then.
 
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Religiot

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But we are to be in the world, but not of the world. We are also to submit to the authorities. And if they allow tax breaks that a church can take advantage of without compromising our Divine mission, there is nothing wrong with taking it. It starts as the churches money and the government simply says churches do not have to give their money to the govt. If it compromises our ability to glorify God and spread the good news, we should not take it then.
There are many pernicious things in this world, that go deeper than sin, to undermine the very precepts of faith, and to cause many to fall and never get up: chief among these is the mixing of religion and government, by contract.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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This is from the IRS 501c3 document:
All IRC Section 501(c)(3) organizations, including churches and religious organizations, must abide by certain rules: their net earnings may not inure to any private shareholder or individual; they must not provide a substantial benefit to private interests; they must not devote a substantial part of their activities to attempting to influence legislation; they must not participate in, or intervene in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office; and the organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violate fundamental public policy.

So basically, they cannot be involved in a political campaign on behalf of a candidate. Nothing about teaching for or against "x".
 
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Pavel Mosko

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they must not participate in,

This line though is kind of problematic

1) If you think a candidate is really bad on issues like abortion etc.

2) I think there is a lot of bias enforcement of the above. It's been a while, decades, but I've seen old videos of liberal black churches run by people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright that can be very overtly political, in ways that other churches would be afraid of doing lest their status be revoked or put under review.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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This line though is kind of problematic

1) If you think a candidate is really bad on issues like abortion etc.

2) I think there is a lot of bias enforcement of the above. It's been a while, decades, but I've seen old videos of liberal black churches run by people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright that can be very overtly political, in ways that other churches would be afraid of doing lest their status be revoked or put under review.

RE: 2, I have a LOT of problems with that as well especially if they are an active candidate. If you are a candidate, you should not be acting as an active cleric as well. Dont get me started on Makarios of Cyprus.
 
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nolidad

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There are many pernicious things in this world, that go deeper than sin, to undermine the very precepts of faith, and to cause many to fall and never get up: chief among these is the mixing of religion and government, by contract.

Well I agree if by that you mean we get preachers opening their churches for partisan political meetings, preachers going on air in support of a candidate and the like. But to follow the laws of a land in regards to taxes to me does not rise to any big deal.

Many countries churches have to pay taxes and are stifled by govt. We in Americ astill enjoy many freedoms from govt.. The church should be a voice govts. listen to for morality and blessing for the land, but yes we should not be wed to any govt. That is what help lead Europe into the dark ages, besides the false doctrine of the era.
 
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