The Bible definition of Atonement and its many aspects

bling · Feb 4, 2021

BobRyan said:
The scapegoat in Lev 16 is not the sin offering , is not slain, so then not a substitutionary atoning sacrifice at all. All sin offerings in Lev had to be slain "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" Heb 9

What about the bag of flour?

bling · Feb 4, 2021

1213 said:
The purpose of atonement sacrifice is to make amends or reparation. In away it fixes the relationship between God and man. Jesus came on earth to do that. He declared the forgiveness and also showed the correct way to life.

"Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
John 8:11

The difference between old sacrifice and Jesus is, the old ones didn’t cause change in heart so that person would become righteous and reject sin. That is why it can be said:

"Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you didn't desire, neither had pleasure in them" (those which are offered according to the law),
Heb. 10:8

By Jesus there is the forgiveness, but also the words that can cause change in person so that he becomes righteous.

…You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

…as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

… Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Because of these, I think the common idea of atonement or sacrifice is too simple. It is really not only about forgiveness, but also about fixing the relationship between man and God. And that does not happen because of death, but because of the words Jesus told that can cause the change for better. And we have those words, because Jesus was willing to use his life for our benefit. And, because he did so, it can be said that he sacrificed his life for us, for our benefit. (It could be compared to a soldier who sacrifices his life by defending his country). Jesus could have had all the kingdoms of the earth and he could have lived for his own benefit, but instead of that, he used his life for us to have life. His death was the result of that, and I believe one reason why it was allowed was that then God could rise Jesus from death and his disciples would get the courage to continue fearlessly so that even we could hear the Gospel. That I think Jesus meant when he said:

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

You might read my post 18 and this:
I have not solved the problem of where to begin the explanation, but it might be best to go back to the Jewish understanding of atonement learned from actually individually personally going through the atonement process. Christians lack this experience and instead have developed preconceived ideas of atonement from poor theories.

First off: If you are forgiven 100% then there is nothing to pay and if Christ paid 100% there is nothing to forgive. That is Law.

Penal Substitution is not fair/just where you have the innocent being punished (even if the innocent is willing to be punished) so the guilty can go free.

The “Satisfaction Theory of Atonement” put the problem of forgiveness in God’s lap needing Christ to be cruelly, tortured, humiliated and murdered (sounding very blood thirsty) in order to be personally satisfied to forgive.

God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more then just forgiveness, since if at all possible, a wonderful parent would see to the fair/just Loving discipline of His children for all the benefits discipline provides. Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”.

The Jews under the Law would have a good understanding of atonement by experiencing atonement for very minor sins which took little disciplining:

Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want to take the time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself; it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

Please think up some questions to ask me.

BobRyan · Feb 4, 2021

BobRyan said: ↑
The scapegoat in Lev 16 is not the sin offering , is not slain, so then not a substitutionary atoning sacrifice at all. All sin offerings in Lev had to be slain "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" Heb 9

bling said:
What about the bag of flour?

1. No "bag of flour" on the day of Atonement - Lev 16.

2. that is an exception specific to -- the "if too poor" context for the leper who has been cleansed of his disease?

Lev 5
9 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. 10 And he shall offer the second as a burnt offering according to the prescribed manner. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

11 ‘But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

Lev 14
Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought to the priest. 3 And the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him; and indeed, if the leprosy is healed in the leper, 4 then the priest shall command to take for him who is to be cleansed two living and clean birds, cedar wood, scarlet, and hyssop...
21 “But if he is poor and cannot afford it, then he shall take one male lamb as a trespass offering to be waved, to make atonement for him, one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, a log of oil, 22 and two turtledoves or two young pigeons, such as he is able to afford: one shall be a sin offering and the other a burnt offering.

I don't see how that "if too poor" context applies to Lev 16 - Day of Atonement.

BobRyan · Feb 4, 2021

bling said:
Yes, Christ is the much better priest, but you need to start with Lev. 5 at least.

Lev 5 is for the daily service and the sin offering... but Lev 16 is for "Day of Atonement" at end of year where there is final disposition of all sins for the entire year.

Bro.T · Feb 5, 2021

bling said:
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, NIV)

This verse does provide a lot of information about how sins prior to Christ going to the cross were handled.

First off: Paul is giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, just a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished”, but that also means the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined” (you discipline your children and do not punish your children).

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for their rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel a death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I, who needs that blood outside of Christ to flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

….

Here is something to think about to help you address the questions below:

The cross is foolishness to the nonbeliever, so it takes a lot to show the logic and benefit.

Paul repeats ideas and builds on the previous explanation, so the ideas in Romans’ 5 go back to Ro. 3:25 and even further back to Romans’ 1.

I would at least start with Ro. 3:25

Paul in Ro. 3:25 giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, only a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished” (NIV), but that also should mean the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan worthy of a rasom, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined”.

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel the death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

I use the NIV all though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, I the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

There are lots of excellent benefits from being disciplined, but prior to Christ’s crucifixion, there was no way to fairly/justly discipline a rebellious disobedient repentant child seeking forgiveness and allow the child to live. The disciplines were just to hard being banishment or physical death. By Christ going to the cross we can now be “crucified with Christ”, empathetically. How severe of a disciplining is this for Christians and how would it compare to the pain and sorrow God went through while Christ was crucified?

Notice there is no language suggesting the sins are put on hold, rolled forward or dealt with later, but are “passed over”/left unpunished.

Here are some questions I used in my adult Bible class:

Roman 3 starting with Ro. 3:24

1. Prior to Christ going to the cross where some people forgiven of their sins and if so who, how and why?

2. (God “pass over sins” or as in the NIV “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”) so which sins in the passage are these?

3. The OT gives lots of severe punishments for sins, so could/did “severe sins” go unpunished? Did God allow/want them to go unpunished? Why have these severe rules and punishments in the law?

4. Where the forgiven sins of those before the cross forgiven the exact same way as those after the cross?

5. If some sins where forgiven before the cross, was the cross needed to forgive sins?

6. From your own experience how hard was/is it for you to forgive the transgressions of your truly repentant child? Was/is there other action you have/had to see to that was harder to do? (What are/was it?)

7. Did you punish or discipline your children? (What would Dr. Dobson say?)

8. From your own experience with your children, if your child correctly accepted your most wise discipline and purely charitable forgiveness; was your relationship with your child better after or before the disobedience?

9. Is disciplining your child a learning maturing growing experience?

10. How could your rebellious/disobedient child stand “justified’ and “righteous” before you even today?

11. Look at the example Christ gives with the prodigal son (Luke 15: 11-32). Who is the kidnapper, what ransom was paid, who was set free, and could the son stand “justified” and/or “righteous” before the father?

12. Rev. 5: 9 “…and with your blood you purchased for God, persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.” Who did Christ pay the purchase price to?

13. What reason would Christ have for paying satan?

14. If God forgives our sins why would they still have to be paid for?

15. If Christ paid for our sins, why do they still need to be forgiven?

16. Atonement (propitiation) sacrifice can be for everyone with the ransom payment being offered but the kidnapper may refuse to accept the sacrifice, so it was made in vain for that kidnapper and the child is not freed?

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8)

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 1:36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because all have sinned, and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check.

Bro.T · Feb 5, 2021

1213 said:
I think that is not accurate enough, because Jesus told about the baptism:

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

I think that is the purpose of baptism Jesus taught. But, at that same time, it is possible to have sins forgiven. I just don’t think it means it is the water that makes it, but the words Jesus said.

...The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

It's actually all of it, because you can say the words and not perform the baptism then you would have not believe. "And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15-16).

1213 said:
I think that is not accurate enough, because Jesus told about the baptism:

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

Those are all titles. you have to say the name. Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 1:36-38).

"But when they believed Phillip preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." hen Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:13-17).

1213 · Feb 5, 2021

bling said:
...God would have no problem forgiving, ...

That is true. And as you can read from the Bible Jesus and also disciples of Jesus had the right to forgive sins and nothing was required for that.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

bling said:
...
Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process...

I don’t think it really had any benefits, because it made it easy to continue in sin and it really didn’t cause the change in people so that they would stop continuing in sin. It was like easy payment for people to sin.

bling · Feb 6, 2021

BobRyan said:
1. No "bag of flour" on the day of Atonement - Lev 16.

The atoning sacrifice which could result in forgiveness for the sinner could be a bloodless bag of flour.

BobRyan said:
2. that is an exception specific to -- the "if too poor" context for the leper who has been cleansed of his disease?

Lev. 5 is not talking about a leper, but a sinner. The sacrifice was a penalty/punishment/disciplining for the sinner.

Lev 5
9 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. 10 And he shall offer the second as a burnt offering according to the prescribed manner. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

11 ‘But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

Lev 14
Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought to the priest. 3 And the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him; and indeed, if the leprosy is healed in the leper, 4 then the priest shall command to take for him who is to be cleansed two living and clean birds, cedar wood, scarlet, and hyssop...
21 “But if he is poor and cannot afford it, then he shall take one male lamb as a trespass offering to be waved, to make atonement for him, one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, a log of oil, 22 and two turtledoves or two young pigeons, such as he is able to afford: one shall be a sin offering and the other a burnt offering.[/QUOTE]

BobRyan said:
I don't see how that "if too poor" context applies to Lev 16 - Day of Atonement.

We are only talking about two goats for everyone on the day of Atonement, so no one individual has to fork up the money for two goats.

bling · Feb 6, 2021

BobRyan said:
Lev 5 is for the daily service and the sin offering... but Lev 16 is for "Day of Atonement" at end of year where there is final disposition of all sins for the entire year.

The individual Jew did not have to participate in these sin offerings, unless they had done an unintentional sin and after they had to secure the sacrifice. The Bibles says after they correctly completed the atonement process for unintentional sins they were forgiven and could go on, with nothing said about the forgiveness would come later on the Day of Atonement, so where are you getting this?

The day of atonement dealt only with those sins not yet addressed in Leviticus. Rebellious disobedience directly against God and other major sins resulted in death of the sinner or banishment, so he/she would not be there for the day of atonement. Those with minor type sins did have an atonement process (Lev. 5 as an example).

When the woman caught in adultery was brought before the Lord, He did not dispute the Pharisees with an alternative to stoning her, like have her confess and wait for the day of atonement.

bling · Feb 6, 2021

Bro.T said:
Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8)

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 1:36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because all have sinned, and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check.

Scholars today have many secular first century writings to help them understand Greek words used in scripture. Πάρεσις is one of those words difficult to translate.
Romans 3:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

I use the NIV though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, in the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

bling · Feb 6, 2021

1213 said:
That is true. And as you can read from the Bible Jesus and also disciples of Jesus had the right to forgive sins and nothing was required for that.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Good

1213 said:
I don’t think it really had any benefits, because it made it easy to continue in sin and it really didn’t cause the change in people so that they would stop continuing in sin. It was like easy payment for people to sin.

We are talking only about sins done unintentionally, almostly accidental. If your kids did something like that you would not think much of it. Since major sins could not be atoned for these very minor sins provided an opportunity to teach the significance of sin (if this is required for just a little oversight what would be required for rebellious disobedience?) To us a bag of flour seems very minor put to a poor first century Jew that might mean going hungry for a few days. Have you ever had to fight a lamb that did not know you in line for 3 hours. feeding and cleaning up his mess.

Bro.T · Feb 6, 2021

BobRyan said:
Matt 17 - "Moses and Elijah stand in glory WITH Christ" before the cross.. fully forgiven, sinless, glorified

man cannot fully atone for sins before the cross or after the cross - and still survive it.

Forgiveness was full and free both before the cross and afterwards by faith in "the Lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world"

That's a misconception to say it like that, and also that was a vision. If Jesus didn't come and die or become a sin offering all mankind would have been put in the lake of fire, including, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, etc. Paul says in Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. This is talking about the first and second death. I notice on this forum, most people don't talk about the second death, and that's the most important death to worry about.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. See, Adam brought both death. This is why the atonement was practice in Leviticus 16 and so important. They had to live in hopes of what we living in now, because Christ already came and died in our day. But in their time, they sins was always on them including the second death. That's why Paul says in Hebrew 10: For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Because animal can't take away sins. The Lord had Moses to use two scapegoats because God was not going to raise up a goat from the dead.

Now, Paul says in Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Let's take a look in Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? This is hard for most people to understand this, because people are not taught about the second death, and when they see the word death in the Bible, they looking at it as the first death mostly. But let's get a verse out the Bible thats clean cut in that mention the second death in Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So I thank God the more and more, because three times Jesus prayed to the Father in Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. So that vision in Matthew 17, is because of what Jesus was going and now did.

BobRyan · Feb 6, 2021

BobRyan said: ↑
Matt 17 - "Moses and Elijah stand in glory WITH Christ" before the cross.. fully forgiven, sinless, glorified

man cannot fully atone for sins before the cross or after the cross - and still survive it.

Forgiveness was full and free both before the cross and afterwards by faith in "the Lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world"

Enoch taken to heaven before the cross - Gen 5:24 - Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for before he was taken up, he was attested to have been pleasing to God.

Elijah taken to heaven before the cross - 2Kings 2:1Now it came about, when the Lord was about to bring Elijah up by a whirlwind to heaven, ... 11 And as they were walking along and talking, behold, a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and they separated the two of them. Then Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. -

And then appears in glory with Christ before the cross

Moses - taken to heaven after being resurrected.. before the cross. (Jude 1 quotes the "assumption of Moses" as factual).

Matt 17
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter responded and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If You want, I will make three tabernacles here: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

Luke 9:29-31
29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Literal mountain, literal Christ, literal Moses and Elijah in Literal glory speaking of Christ's literal death burial and resurrection soon to happen.

Bro.T said:
That's a misconception to say it like that,

Interesting idea - but I think the text is pretty clear.

And a great many times Jesus said "your sins ARE forgiven" when speaking to people during his lifetime. Not "your sins WILL some day be forgiven".

God sees the future as if it already was in the past - Romans 4.

Bro.T said:
If Jesus didn't come and die or become a sin offering all mankind would have been put in the lake of fire,

Agreed - but God is not stuck in linear time in His thinking and His grasp of reality - like we are. So He can forgive them in the OT and even take them to heaven as He chooses based on the "lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world"

Bro.T · Feb 6, 2021

BobRyan said:
Enoch taken to heaven before the cross - Gen 5:24 - Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for before he was taken up, he was attested to have been pleasing to God.

Elijah taken to heaven before the cross - 2Kings 2:1Now it came about, when the Lord was about to bring Elijah up by a whirlwind to heaven, ... 11 And as they were walking along and talking, behold, a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and they separated the two of them. Then Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. -

And then appears in glory with Christ before the cross

Moses - taken to heaven after being resurrected.. before the cross. (Jude 1 quotes the "assumption of Moses" as factual).

Matt 17
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter responded and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If You want, I will make three tabernacles here: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

Luke 9:29-31
29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Literal mountain, literal Christ, literal Moses and Elijah in Literal glory speaking of Christ's literal death burial and resurrection soon to happen.

Interesting idea - but I think the text is pretty clear.

And a great many times Jesus said "your sins ARE forgiven" when speaking to people during his lifetime. Not "your sins WILL some day be forgiven".

God sees the future as if it already was in the past - Romans 4.

Agreed - but God is not stuck in linear time in His thinking and His grasp of reality - like we are. So He can forgive them in the OT and even take them to heaven as He chooses based on the "lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world"

In the scriptures its written in Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Jesus says in John 3: 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. How absolute is no man.

Did you not know that there are three heavens God created. First heaven is the Earth, Second heaven where is the firmaments , Sun, Moon, Stars, Clouds, even Space. The Third heaven is above all that, is where our Father, Jesus and the angels are.

Now let's breakdown some of these heavens up and get some understanding.

Let's take a look Deuteronomy 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. This verse clear states that the earth also is one of those three heaven.

Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: First heaven the earth.

Lets stay in Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. So, now we see that when we look up at the sun, moon and stars, that the second heaven. All nation under the whole heaven is talking about earth, because we know nations refers to people.

Let's take a look at the Third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven. This is Paul referring to Jesus, being caught up to the third heaven.

Now let's take a look at what happen to Elijah. Let's go into 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

So there's no dispute about Elijah being taken into heaven, but the question is, which heaven? So lets move a little further and see what happen to Elijah the prophets down the years.

Let go into 2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:14 Behold, with a great plague will the Lord smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

So the first heaven is Earth, second heaven is clouds, sun, moon, etc. Then it's safe to say that Elijah was taken up to the second heaven, and brought back down to earth. We see he is still alive on earth (first heaven) because in 2 chronicles Elijah sends a writing to Jehoram, later down the years. But Again, Jesus already said in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Now concerning Enoch, Paul says in Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. So Enoch is not in the Third Heaven and he's not dead, so that leaves him on earth in chain of darkness like the angels.

I see you quick to believe a thing written before you understand it.

Let's deal with Jesus forgiving sin, which I agree with and Jesus still forgives sin to this day. But understand the principal of how this works. The people got baptise under john the baptist at this time, not Jesus. Getting baptise under the name of Jesus didn't come to after his death. So Jesus did it himself, but in our day we have to get out sins forgiven in baptism and sometimes prayer, among keeping the Commandments, Statues and Judgment.

Pay Attention, to what Jesus says at the end of these forgiving acts.

Let's go into John 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk? 13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Another example in John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. Jesus told then to sin no more. Why? because, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23). This is talking about the second death, God forbid anyone of us can die the first death, good or bad. Some people get baptised at 60yrs old, so all the sins on that person and they still living.

Bro.T · Feb 6, 2021

bling said:
Scholars today have many secular first century writings to help them understand Greek words used in scripture. Πάρεσις is one of those words difficult to translate.
Romans 3:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

I use the NIV though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, in the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

I'm not sure I fully understand you. What do you mean punishment?

bling · Feb 6, 2021

Bro.T said:
I'm not sure I fully understand you. What do you mean punishment?

The same Greek word and Hebrew word for punishment can be translated negative type disciplining. God would not be "punishing" his children, but would be Lovingly disciplining His children.
All good parents not only forgive their rebellious disobedient children but if at all possible see to a very loving disciplining of their children (often referred to as punishment in scripture). A wonderful Loving parent often joins the child in their disciplining to help strengthen the relationship when the child accepts the discipline correctly ( a real teaching moment). When it comes to our sins God's huge Love allows God to easily forgive us, but as a wonderful parent also needs to see to our fair just Loving discipline (punishment). This was only available to God's children after the cross when Christians can actually be disciplined by empathetically being crucified with Christ and still live.

Bro.T · Feb 7, 2021

bling said:
The same Greek word and Hebrew word for punishment can be translated negative type disciplining. God would not be "punishing" his children, but would be Lovingly disciplining His children.
All good parents not only forgive their rebellious disobedient children but if at all possible see to a very loving disciplining of their children (often referred to as punishment in scripture). A wonderful Loving parent often joins the child in their disciplining to help strengthen the relationship when the child accepts the discipline correctly ( a real teaching moment). When it comes to our sins God's huge Love allows God to easily forgive us, but as a wonderful parent also needs to see to our fair just Loving discipline (punishment). This was only available to God's children after the cross when Christians can actually be disciplined by empathetically being crucified with Christ and still live.

I agree, but understand that, to be a child of God you have to do things God requires, or you can become a child of the devil (Satan). Let's take a look at that in John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Let's take a look at what some of things God requires according to the Bible. Jesus said in Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

So Jesus said, “but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments,” No matter what you read in the Bible, these commandments have to be kept to enter into life, or you will be judge by them. Now let’s read further into what Jesus is saying here in Matthew… Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This includes the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday).

This also include, Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (this includes Easter, Christmas, going to church on Sunday and any other pagan or tradition of men that may cause another God to be worship)

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Exodus 20:3-8). Now, let's say you doing these thing also statutes and Judgement as well that's included. Of course God will deal with you as Children of God.
The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22).

BobRyan · Feb 7, 2021

Bro.T said:
Did you not know that there are three heavens God created. First heaven is the Earth, Second heaven where is the firmaments , Sun, Moon, Stars, Clouds, even Space. The Third heaven is above all that, is where our Father, Jesus and the angels are.

Ok agreed - except I would phrase it as follows
1. First heavens -- is where the birds fly (Genesis 1)
2. Second heavens - is where we see sun, moon , stars
3. Third heaven is where the Throne of God is - at center of universe..

Bro.T said:
Now let's take a look at what happen to Elijah. Let's go into 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Which is not 10,000 feet up with birds and is not outer space with the moon. Rather it is where God is and where they come from in Matt 17 to appear "in glory with Christ".

Bro.T said:
Let go into 2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:14 Behold, with a great plague will the Lord smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

Southern Kingdom -- Judah

Jehoshephat Jehoram (Joram)

Jehoshepha 873 --------------------848
- Jehoram(Joram) 853----------------841
- Elijah Translated 852-848 (Sometime in this 5yr window)

Elijah is translated no earlier than 852 and possibly as late as 848 BC so this all works.

2Chron 21:12-15 Elijah writes to Jehoram telling him of God's punishment (853-848) (5 year time span)

Jehoram's reign overlapped Jehoshephat from 853 - 848BC.

Bro.T said:
Now concerning Enoch, Paul says in Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

So Enoch is in the Third Heaven and he's not dead, only the third heavens would affect the life of a person such that they do not die.

Hawkins · Feb 8, 2021

The nature of Law is that it's applied after fact. It is used to judge one's past behavior. So Law must be followed by a judgment (known us the Final Judgment of Law). It must be fulfilled first before grace can be granted. Jesus is fulfill the Law such that God's Grace can be granted to humans. This is one of the aspects of atonement.

Bro.T · Feb 8, 2021

BobRyan said:
Ok agreed - except I would phrase it as follows
1. First heavens -- is where the birds fly (Genesis 1)
2. Second heavens - is where we see sun, moon , stars
3. Third heaven is where the Throne of God is - at center of universe..

Which is not 10,000 feet up with birds and is not outer space with the moon. Rather it is where God is and where they come from in Matt 17 to appear "in glory with Christ".

The birds fly in the second heaven which is also called the firmament, but first let's take a look at the first heaven in Genesis 1: 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

So the dry land is earth which is the first heaven, so if you above the dry land you are in the second heaven, let's skip down to verse 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

BobRyan said:
Southern Kingdom -- Judah

Jehoshephat Jehoram (Joram)

Jehoshepha 873 --------------------848

Jehoram(Joram) 853----------------841

Elijah Translated 852-848 (Sometime in this 5yr window)

Elijah is translated no earlier than 852 and possibly as late as 848 BC so this all works.

2Chron 21:12-15 Elijah writes to Jehoram telling him of God's punishment (853-848) (5 year time span)

Jehoram's reign overlapped Jehoshephat from 853 - 848BC.

So Enoch is in the Third Heaven and he's not dead, only the third heavens would affect the life of a person such that they do not die.

Again Jesus says in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
This means Elijah or no other man (except Jesus) has went up to the heaven where the Father's throne is at and where Jesus is a now. Everything, including our hope, is tied into this gospel message. If we choose to believe contrary to the gospel then we are believing a lie. Remember, "the truth shall make you free." There's only one gospel! "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

The Bible definition of Atonement and its many aspects

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