Adam's Flesh Could Not Be Saved

zoidar · Feb 6, 2021

Davy said:
See my post #128.

Why is this such an important topic to you? I don't understand the purpose of this thread.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
There is no such thing as an immortal soul.

Did I say there was?

That is not found in the bible. Jesus referred to death as sleep many times, so did His disciples. Adam and Eve were not immortal. God would have kept them immortal. God alone is immortal.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Joh_11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh_11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh_11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Mat_9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mar_5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk_8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Everlasting life is a gift from God to the saved, there is not one verse that says immortality is given to the lost.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luk_18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Mat_19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Feb 6, 2021

Davy said:
That's really a silly question, since we well know that the 'dead in the ground' idea that dead brethren are literally asleep in a casket is only a tradition, as the many Scriptures I have shown proves differently.

And I certainly am not... the first believing Christian that has not believed in that 'dead in the ground' theory you're pointing to.

I'm talking about the idea of the resurrection. Not soul sleep theory. Much of Christianity has been built on the assumption of the resurrection of our bodies. That we not only inherit a new spiritual nature but that our physical nature is likewise changed in the glorification to come. This intertwines with ideas about the Incarnation and why Christ became a human in the first place. It's why Christology was so important to the early Church.

Your Ideas aren't new, Gnostics believed much the same about the body, as did many Greek schools of Philosophy. But they are contra to the mainstream historic teaching of Christianity over the last two thousand years. So my question is a reasonable one to ask. Why are you right, whereas the Church has been wrong for so long, regarding the resurrection and what it entails?

Hmm · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
Jesus referred to death as sleep many times, so did His disciples.

Can you provide Scripture verses that support that please?

What do you think Philippians 1:21-23: means?

21 For to me, living is Christ and dying is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which I prefer. 23 I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better;

Is Paul describing a state of postmortem sleep here? Or is he saying that he will be with Christ (and presumably awake)?

1an · Feb 6, 2021

zoidar said:
Why is this such an important topic to you? I don't understand the purpose of this thread.

He is making the distinction between our mortal flesh and our eternal soul.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 KJV)
.

1an · Feb 6, 2021

Hmm said:
Can you provide Scripture verses that support that please?

What do you think Philippians 1:21-23: means?

21 For to me, living is Christ and dying is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which I prefer. 23 I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better;

Is Paul describing a state of postmortem sleep here? Or is he saying that he will be with Christ (and presumably awake)?

I can only find one occurrence:

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(John 11:11-13 KJV)

mmksparbud · Feb 6, 2021

Hmm said:
Can you provide Scripture verses that support that please?

What do you think Philippians 1:21-23: means?

21 For to me, living is Christ and dying is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which I prefer. 23 I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better;

Is Paul describing a state of postmortem sleep here? Or is he saying that he will be with Christ (and presumably awake)?

I gave several on the post you are quoting---#153--didn't you read it?

With death, there is no consciousness.

Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The reason it is called sleep in the bible is because the next thing we know is when Jesus calls us unto resurrection. It's like when we go to sleep and the very next thing we know the alarm goes off. Esp. when we think we have not dreamed. With death it is like a dreamless sleep, we'll awake when Jesus calls us. So, it's we die, then the next thing we know it is Jesus calling us awake to be with Him. Paul. knew this.

Hmm · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
I gave several on the post you are quoting---#153--didn't you read it?

I did but I don't think they say that after death we enter a realm of unconscious sleep.

mmksparbud said:
Paul. knew this.

Well, explain the Pauline verse I gave in #164 then.

Jamdoc · Feb 6, 2021

1an said:
The scriptures you quote do not support your view, they support my view. Here is the first you quoted. (1 Corinthians 15:50-53)

(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

To what church do you belong please. I see you put down Baptist, but my Baptist minister father would totally disagree with you according to the above.

1 Corinthians 15 says we have a changed body, it does not say it is intangible or can't eat food, and you always have to compare scripture to scripture. Philippians 3:21 shows that that body is like Christ's body. Christ's body after the resurrection is in the last chapter or so of each Gospel and it is shown being touched and eating and drinking. Therefore, a physical body.

If you cherrypick, you take the "spiritual body" and ignore all other scripture that has to do with the resurrection body.
That is how you come to your misguided conclusion. Your father would also be wrong. Most independent fundamental Baptist preachers do teach a physical resurrection and a new earth, because that is what is in the bible.
Not an eternal incorporeal existence in heaven.

Jamdoc · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
I gave several on the post you are quoting---#153--didn't you read it?

With death, there is no consciousness.

Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The reason it is called sleep in the bible is because the next thing we know is when Jesus calls us unto resurrection. It's like when we go to sleep and the very next thing we know the alarm goes off. Esp. when we think we have not dreamed. With death it is like a dreamless sleep, we'll awake when Jesus calls us. So, it's we die, then the next thing we know it is Jesus calling us awake to be with Him. Paul. knew this.

This is untrue.
Revelation 6:9-11

Jamdoc · Feb 6, 2021

Clare73 said:
Paul's use of "flesh" does not mean human tissue. It is first of all a contrast of the natural (corruptible, weak, sinful) body (1Co 15:42-44)
to the regenerated spirit, it is also used for the weaker element in human nature, the unregenerate state of man, the seat of sin in man.

Yeah that's how I kind of see it as well, although this current body is definitely not suited for eternity, so it'll be changed to one that is.. but that one will still have a physical nature

ViaCrucis · Feb 6, 2021

1an said:
God is Spirit, and to be present with God is to be in heaven.

That is all I am saying on the subject.
.

Yes, but the intermediate state is just that, intermediate. Our eternal hope isn't souls going to heaven for eternity; but the resurrection of the body and eternal life in the Age to Come when God renews and restores all creation. The time we spend with the Lord between death and resurrection is a foretaste of what awaits us on that glorious Day when the Lord returns and God makes all things new.

The idea of spending eternity as souls in heaven is a very modern and deeply, deeply flawed misunderstanding of Christian teaching. That isn't Christian teaching at all, it has more in common with ancient Platonism and various Gnostic and Neo-Gnostic heresies which the Church has struggled against.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Feb 6, 2021

1an said:
He was in human flesh for 33 years.
.

He continues to be true God and true man. The Incarnation is not a temporary thing. The Word did not become flesh temporarily, God has united Himself to human nature forever. Jesus Christ is the eternal God-Man, our Lord and Redeemer.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Feb 6, 2021

Davy said:
You are definitely confused about this being some game. Likewise, you are confused with what God's Word teaches about it also, as I have shown plenty of Scripture that proves that the resurrection body is to a "spiritual body", and not another flesh body.

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

You simply choose to believe men's traditions instead of what Apostle Paul said above. I choose to believe Apostle Paul, and my Lord Jesus Who said in Matthew 22:30 that those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven".

So you can play the devil's advocate all you want by going against those written Scriptures, but it's not going to make the tradition of man you hold to any more true.

You really need to go back to the basics.

Talk to your pastor, assuming they have been properly trained they should be able to correct your confusion here.

What you are advocating for is the wholesale rejection of Christianity, and that's a problem--that you don't realize it's a problem demonstrates that you need to go back and learn basic theology and biblical teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud · Feb 6, 2021

Jamdoc said:
This is untrue.
Revelation 6:9-11

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If you wish to believe that God has millions of souls stuffed under His altar---you certainly are free to do so. I do not. It is obviously not literal.

Hmm · Feb 6, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
Yes, but the intermediate state is just that, intermediate. Our eternal hope isn't souls going to heaven for eternity; but the resurrection of the body and eternal life in the Age to Come when God renews and restores all creation. The time we spend with the Lord between death and resurrection is a foretaste of what awaits us on that glorious Day when the Lord returns and God makes all things new.

I like N.T. Wright's phrase "Life after life after death" He explains this a bit more in an interview he gave about bodily resurrection and why this is crucial to biblical hope:

”The biblical hope is for “new heavens and new earth,” that is, for the utter renewal and reordering of the Creator’s project—begun in Genesis 1 and 2 but aborted, or at least radically distorted, because of human rebellion. The Resurrection of Jesus is the launching of this new creation. His body seems to be at home in either heaven or earth or both, so that he embodies and encapsulates this new creation in himself. Those who belong to Jesus are thus signed on as new-creation people, not just as parts of new creation but (since this is what humans were made for) as agents of new creation.”

Jamdoc · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If you wish to believe that God has millions of souls stuffed under His altar---you certainly are free to do so. I do not. It is obviously not literal.

No, it's not obvious, because 2 Corinthians 5 also says that if we're absent from the body we're present with the Lord.
Paul did not say he looked forward to dreamless sleep for thousands of years, he said he looked forward to departing.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

Jamdoc said:
No, it's not obvious, because 2 Corinthians 5 also says that if we're absent from the body we're present with the Lord.
Paul did not say he looked forward to dreamless sleep for thousands of years, he said he looked forward to departing.

Departing because to die is gain; i.e., being with Christ, there's no gain in oblivion.

Jamdoc · Feb 6, 2021

Clare73 said:
Departing because to die is gain; i.e., being with Christ, there's no gain in oblivion.

Exactly, when his body died (or as is termed most often for a believer, their body sleeps), his spirit is with Christ in heaven until his resurrection.

Jesus taught in Luke something that conflicts with the false doctrine of soul sleep as well. He did it in parable form but when it is confirmed by Paul and John.. I'd say it still holds up as true, that the souls of those who die are not unconscious but are conscious and aware, either being comforted and resting, or being tormented and never having rest.

and it's all a good lesson.. when you look at a doctrine, you should look for that doctrine in more than 1 place in the bible, because the bible is built on the truth being established by 2 or more witnesses.

2 Corinthians 13:1

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

We also have a bible that has progressive revelation.
If you have a doctrine that appears to be conflicted by scripture even though you got that doctrine from a piece of scripture, don't reject the opposing verses. Reconcile them.

So don't come to me and say "see Paul said they sleep in 1 Thessalonians 4" and say that's proof of soul sleep when there's at least 3 places where soul sleep is debunked. You have to take the whole council of God and then reconcile all scripture together, because all scripture is true, so you have to look at 2 seemingly conflicting verses, and decide "how are these both true?"

Same thing with the bodiless spirits gnostic heresy floating around here. Yes, God is spirit, but it's taught elsewhere that God has a body. Both have to be true. Yes it's a spiritual body, but we're also taught it's like Jesus' resurrection body. Both have to be true.
Take the whole council and reconcile. Don't cherrypick and discard when something is inconvenient...

I'd go into Matthew 24 with pretrib believers, but that's a whole different can of worms.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Exactly, when his body died (or as is termed most often for a believer, their body sleeps), his spirit is with Christ in heaven until his resurrection.

Jesus taught in Luke something that conflicts with the false doctrine of soul sleep as well. He did it in parable form but when it is confirmed by Paul and John.. I'd say it still holds up as true, that the souls of those who die are not unconscious but are conscious and aware, either being comforted and resting, or being tormented and never having rest.

Yep. . .Lk 16, parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

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