Adam's Flesh Could Not Be Saved

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

Hmm said:
A general question. Do we know if the nature of the physical world change following the Fall? For example, would Adam and Eve have been susceptible to disease or accidents such as lightning strikes while they were in Eden?

See Ro 8:20-23.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

1an said:
I often notice the American posters have a different pov. I think it stems from the time they were expelled from England for hearsay. Let us stay with the Bible and not church doctrine.
.

America's ancestors, the Puritans from England, were well-versed in Scripture and brought it with them.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

The Liturgist said:
First of all, Americans were not “expelled from England” for heresy. The oldest colony, Virginia, was primarily settled by Anglicans, and Delaware and New Jersey were Swedish colonies, and New York a Dutch colony, that the British appropriated. The only colonies founded on the basis of religious persecution were Massachussets, Rhode Island and Conneticut, which were settled by Puritans, Pennsylvania, which was created for among other purposes to serve as a haven for Quakers, and Maryland, which tolerated Roman Catholics. The only colony to which persons were forced to emigrate to, in the form of penal transportation, was Georgia; after Britain lost the War of Independence penal transportation shifted to Australia.

Secondly, the Church of England and the Church of Scotland, the two remaining established churches in the United Kingdom, profess a belief in the bodily resurrection. For that matter, the former established churches, those being the Roman Catholic Church, disestablished under King Henry VIII, and the Church of Ireland, and the Church in Wales, disestablished under Queen Victoria, also profess a belief in the bodily resurrection, as does the Scottish Episcopal Church, which the Stuarts attempted to establish in Scotland.

Thirdly, this belief in bodily resurrection is shared by the other major churches, including the United Reformed Church, the Methodist Church, the Lutheran Church, the Free Church of Scotland, all English Baptists I know, the Greek, Russian, Antiochian, Serbian, Romanian and Bulgarian Orthodox, and other Eastern Orthodox, and by the Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Syriac, Indian and Armenian). It is also believed in by those Quaker meetings which are explicitly Christian and Evangelical.

And let's not forget the firstborn (by the resurrection) of many brethren who was resurrected with a physical body!

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

Davy said:
That's really a silly question, since we well know that the 'dead in the ground' idea that dead brethren are literally asleep in a casket is only a tradition, as the many Scriptures I have shown proves differently.

And I certainly am not... the first believing Christian that has not believed in that 'dead in the ground' theory you're pointing to.

Who believes those dead, decaying, disappearing bodies in the ground are just sleeping? What kind of created sleep is that?

DamianWarS · Feb 6, 2021

Davy said:
See my post #128.

Perhaps I missed it but you dont seem to address the resurrection and sort of just ignore it. Perhaps you want to go into more details regarding the resurrection so I can better understand your point. You seem to right now be avoiding the question and I'm not sure why? I'm seeking understanding not debate.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

Davy said:
You are definitely confused about this being some game. Likewise, you are confused with what God's Word teaches about it also, as
I have shown plenty of Scripture that proves that the resurrection body is to a "spiritual body", and not another flesh body.

All of which Scriptures you misunderstand because Paul does not use "spiritual" in opposition to physical, to mean without matter, immaterial, bodiless. . .PERIOD.

He uses it to mean the domain of the Holy Spirit.

You are misunderstanding the whole NT regarding "flesh," and have built a false doctrine on that misunderstanding.

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

You simply choose to believe men's traditions instead of what Apostle Paul said above. I choose to believe Apostle Paul, and my Lord Jesus Who said in Matthew 22:30 that those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven".

So you can play the devil's advocate all you want by going against those written Scriptures, but it's not going to make the tradition of man you hold to any more true.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

Davy said:
I'm sorry,
I did not know that "flesh and blood" does not mean... flesh and blood! I must have missed that in school biology class.

So that is what the problem is. . .you think Scripture is just another piece of human literature, like a biology book?

I'm sorry, but that's how silly your theory sounds. Paul was referring directly to the flesh body with "flesh and blood". The NT Greek for "flesh" is 'sarx'...

NT:4561
sarx (sarx); probably from the base of NT:4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external:

KJV - carnal (-ly, -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

Davy said:
Please, no philosophy of man needed to understand the simplicity in God's Holy Writ.
There is no idea of a "sin nature" written in God's Word.

What kind of nature would be the object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3)?

What His Word refers to is a law of sin located in... the flesh:

Rom 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Apostle Paul made it plain above that there is a law of sin in our fleshy members. In 1 Timothy 1 and Galatians 5, Paul even outlined sins of the flesh in contrast to doing the good things of The Spirit by walking in The Spirit. Thus Paul revealed by that why he also said "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doeth corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:49) It's because for this present world God has placed the law of sin in our fleshy members. And in Romans 8:18-25, Paul showed how God also placed the whole creation in a state of bondage to corruption, for this present world time. Paul even said there that the whole creation groans as we do, waiting for the 'redemption' of our body. What body? Our spiritual body, not another flesh body.

So what is sin then, and how did it start, and what did it do?

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
KJV

Hebrews 2:14 reveals that the power of death has been assigned to Satan. That is because Satan, the devil, was who sinned from the beginning, like Apostle John said there. That means the very 1st sin, ever. But Satan did that in the previous world, not this present one. God's parable about Satan using the prince and king of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28 reveals that God originally created Satan perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him, and he rebelled in wanting to be GOD. That was the very first original sin, not what Adam and Eve did later.

Thus sin entered in because of what Satan did originally. And by sin came 'death'.

This is why Satan and those who rebelled with him have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire", while no one born flesh has been judged to perish yet. It is also why that "lake of fire" we are told has been prepared for him and his angels (Matthew 25:41). And like Apostle John said as the definition of sin, that it is "transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

So how did God's Plan correct this matter of sin and death entering in?

Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
KJV

That is why God ordained Lord Jesus Christ before the foundation of this world, to be born through flesh woman and die on the cross, that through that death He might redeem those who believe on Him, and give them eternal life, His having conquered death and the devil for us through His Blood.

This is why in Revelation 21, it says in final there will be no more death, and at the end of Rev.20 it shows that death will go into the "lake of fire" and perish with the abode of hell.

This all points to the fact that by the time of Adam and Eve, which is part of this PRESENT WORLD, that sin and thus death was already manifest because of what Satan did. This is why it is impossible to assign the condition of Adam and Eve before they sinned as if it were like Christ's future Salvation state.

And I am very surprised at my fellow-Christian brethren who want to try and associate Adam and Eve's state in the flesh before they sinned as an example of Christ's future Salvation, for in the world to come under Christ Jesus, as one of His, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for us to have sin. With the state of Adam and Eve before they sinned, we know the ability was in them even when they were innocent, because God warned them about that very thing. So I'm surprised that brethren can't understand this per God's Word.

fhansen · Feb 6, 2021

Davy said:
Please, no philosophy of man needed to understand the simplicity in God's Holy Writ. There is no idea of a "sin nature" written in God's Word. What His Word refers to is a law of sin located in... the flesh:

It's not philosophy of man; its understanding of God and His wisdom and will and Word. Everyone, including yourself, has their own understanding. Mine just happens to jive with ancient consensus. And I already denied the concept of sin nature, while your ideas border on it. Satan was born without flesh-and yet sinned. Sin is situated in the will-the body simply offers various occasions for sin. And the "law of sin" simply involves a will which is not oriented to, in line and agreement with, or subjugated to God's will-man has a fallen, wayward, lawless will IOW-to the extent that he's spiritually disconnected from the Lawgiver, the only valid Author of the law on man's heart. And love of God, BTW, is the binding agent that connects man with God, a relationship that man enters into via faith. And love necessarily involves the will and once completely realized this love causes obedience and excludes sin by its nature, even if this most likely won't be fully accomplished until the next life where we meet Him "face to face". If Adam had this love in Eden He would never have sinned. But instead God's about the business of patiently cultivating said love in man.

When God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit, did He want Adam to eat of the fruit? If so God's the greatest sinner of all. And He should have no objections, then to anyone else sinning. And this is why the church has steadfastly maintained that while, yes, God created knowing that man would sin, He nonetheless was not the direct cause of that sin; He did not will it but rather allowed and used it for His ultimately good purposes. From the big picture His plan of salvation was in effect from the very beginning. He allowed for the fact that man would need to learn a lesson: that he's not God and that only God is the one true God, and that man desperately needs Him in order to have life and life abundantly, and this lesson involved a detour out of Eden and into this world of relative exile from Him where His plans would be carried out, where man's will might be better formed and informed by experience so that he might be all the more ready and capable of saying "yes" to his Savior when He comes calling, like a prodigal who's spent time in the pigsty first.

1an · Feb 6, 2021

Clare73 said:
America's ancestors, the Puritans from England, were well-versed in Scripture and brought it with them.

You are good. :amen:

The Puritans were still forced out of England for various reasons, perhaps they were right and the Catholic Church was wrong. I think that is highly likely. They "believed worship and prayer should be plain and simple. Churches and the ministers ought to reflect the work the Jesus did in helping the poor. Instead of being full of expensive statues, paintings and elaborate religious icons and items, the church should be plain, simple and focused upon piety and prayer. Worship should reflect the suffering of Jesus and his teachings. This should include periods of fasting, alms giving and suchlike." That is my ideal, but would you say Americans are equally well versed in scripture today?
.

zoidar · Feb 6, 2021

... deleated

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2021

1an said:
You are good.

The Puritans were still forced out of England for various reasons, perhaps they were right and the Catholic Church was wrong. I think that is highly likely. They "believed worship and prayer should be plain and simple. Churches and the ministers ought to reflect the work the Jesus did in helping the poor. Instead of being full of expensive statues, paintings and elaborate religious icons and items, the church should be plain, simple and focused upon piety and prayer. Worship should reflect the suffering of Jesus and his teachings. This should include periods of fasting, alms giving and suchlike." That is my ideal, but would you say Americans are equally well versed in scripture today?

Good question. . .only in a few denominations. . .many of our seminaries (or rather cemeteries, where faith goes to die) are teaching unbelief in the name of secular hermeneutics (i.e., applying in the last 75 years a methodology for human literature to the God-breathed Holy Scriptures, and putting many of them--Scriptures and seminarian--in doubt).

mmksparbud · Feb 6, 2021

Clare73 said:
Who believes those dead, decaying, disappearing bodies in the ground are just sleeping? What kind of created sleep is that?

There is no such thing as an immortal soul. That is not found in the bible. Jesus referred to death as sleep many times, so did His disciples. Adam and Eve were not immortal. God would have kept them immortal. God alone is immortal.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Joh_11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh_11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh_11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Mat_9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mar_5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk_8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Everlasting life is a gift from God to the saved, there is not one verse that says immortality is given to the lost.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luk_18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Mat_19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

fhansen · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
There is no such thing as an immortal soul. That is not found in the bible. Jesus referred to death as sleep many times, so did His disciples. Adam and Eve were not immortal. God would have kept them immortal. God alone is immortal.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Joh_11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh_11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh_11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Mat_9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mar_5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk_8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Everlasting life is a gift from God to the saved, there is not one verse that says immortality is given to the lost.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luk_18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Mat_19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

For what it's worth it's been taught that what has God created, in creating man, was meant to exist forever, the gift of existence being inherently good, and that we either live eternally with Him, or eternally apart from Him, a state known as "hell" aka eternal death.

1an · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
There is no such thing as an immortal soul. That is not found in the bible. Jesus referred to death as sleep many times, so did His disciples. Adam and Eve were not immortal. God would have kept them immortal. God alone is immortal.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Joh_11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh_11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh_11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Mat_9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mar_5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk_8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Everlasting life is a gift from God to the saved, there is not one verse that says immortality is given to the lost.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luk_18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Mat_19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I always thought immortal and eternal were the same.
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/immortal
.

mmksparbud · Feb 6, 2021

fhansen said:
For what it's worth it's been taught that what has God created, in creating man, was meant to exist forever, the gift of existence being inherently good, and that we either live eternally with Him, or eternally apart from Him, a state known as "hell" aka eternal death.

"It has been taught" is not what I go by---but I go by what the scriptures actually say. And it says that eternal life is a gift from Him for the saved. It is not a gift to the lost by right of birth. We are adopted children of the Most High God. We are not natural born children of His, we must be adopted. We do not inherit eternal life by right of birth---we inherit it through adoption, as a gift from Him---that is what scripture says. No one will be burning eternally, they have not the gift of eternal life, they will burn till they are gone. That is eternal death, non-existence, it is not eternal life in hell. You are free to believe whatever you want.

mmksparbud · Feb 6, 2021

1an said:
I always thought immortal and eternal were the same.
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/immortal
.

Immortal is the ability to live forever simply because you exist. That is God alone. He always existed, always will. We are not immortal, we are given immortality, we will have eternal life --we accept it now, and know we will inherit it---but do not actually attain it until we are resurrected by God to life eternal with Him. God is eternal, but He is immortal because He always was and always will be. The 2 may be used interchangeably, but there is a difference. God has it because He is God---we must get it from Him, we do not have it as a right if birth. God always had it, He always was, He was not born.

1an · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
Immortal is the ability to live forever simply because you exist. That is God alone. He always existed, always will. We are not immortal, we are given immortality, we will have eternal life --we accept it now, and know we will inherit it---but do not actually attain it until we are resurrected by God to life eternal with Him. God is eternal, but He is immortal because He always was and always will be. The 2 may be used interchangeably, but there is a difference. God has it because He is God---we must get it from Him, we do not have it as a right if birth. God always had it, He always was, He was not born.

1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

I take your point inasmuch as we did not exist from the beginning of time like the immortal God. :doh:

.

mmksparbud · Feb 6, 2021

1an said:
1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

I take your point inasmuch as we did not exist from the beginning.
.

All your verses do not prove we are immortal, but that we are given immortality by God when He comes and resurrects us. :doh:

1an · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
All your verses do not prove we are immortal, but that we are given immortality by God when He comes and resurrects us.

I take you point. I am happy to know the believer has eternal life.

.

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