Tellyontellyon

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I've been reading the Bible, and reading what Christians here say.
I'm questioning, and trying to see what makes sense to me...
I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently and been reading some of the stuff by the Unitarians.
It seems the Trinitarians would call the non-Trinitarians heretics and say they aren't Christians.... But that could be said the other way around too.
The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?

I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.

In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God.... They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they... It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Wouldn't it?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I've been reading the Bible, and reading what Christians here say.
I'm questioning, and trying to see what makes sense to me...
I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently and been reading some of the stuff by the Unitarians.
It seems the Trinitarians would call the non-Trinitarians heretics and say they aren't Christians.... But that could be said the other way around too.
The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?

I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.

In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God.... They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they... It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Wouldn't it?
The prophetic words are found in Isaiah 9:6. Trinitarians hold to this fulfilled prophesy, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the flesh. Non -Trinitarians take a Modalist (Modalism) view, that God presents Himself in three different modes at different times. This is not scriptural as all three are One, always has been and always will be. Be blessed.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In essence, Trinity and by extension its effect on believers is the distinctive in Christianity.

In the spiritual unity systems outside christianity, it is common to say "I am you and you are me" when this unity is experienced. Another common saying in this line of thought and practice is that "we were born to awaken from being separate." If the energy connecting people in this system was thought of as a form of currency, it isn't much different than the current global financial system, with people who have, and people who do not have. In Christianity, this form of oneness would be called modalism in which Jesus, Father, and Holy Spirit are not three persons but three parts of the same entity. This applies to humans in that you are no longer yourself, but a cog in the machine, or an organ in the whole. Due to the inequality of energy sharing in these systems, a global adjustment based on a loss of energy to the whole can leave impoverished souls with even less to manage on.

In the trinity, All three persons of God are one, yet retain their personhood. This applies to humans in a likewise manner in which, we are one body with other believers but retain our personhood. This type of unity where we retain our personal identity is distinctive to Trinitarian spirituality. In God's economy, quantification of energy is resisted by the system and not possible, it is given freely to each individual who is one in the whole.

This distinctive feature is important if you are aware of the flow of life in creation.

In terms of academic merit, most people cannot tell the difference between modalism and trinity.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.
Wouldn't it?

When you read John 1, εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος, the literal translation is "In beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God and God was the Word." While there is a definite article in "τον θεον", "THE God" it is left out of the next piece "και θεος" "and God". The JWs insist that grammatically, the indefinite article "a" must be put in there. However, Koine Greek does not HAVE an indefinite article. If the JWs were as finicky about that, then they would translate the opening as "In a beginning was the Logos". Then they'd have another problem on their hands.

Since the definite article is already used in προς τον θεον, it does not have to be repeated. Thus we get the English translation "... and the Word was with God and God was the Word."

Explanation of John 1:1

FYI, Personally I prefer to leave Logos untranslated as it leaves the more proper notion of Logos as the "reason" of the philosopher Heraclitus and adapted into Jewish philosophy of Philo: Logos - Wikipedia
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In the beginning was the word, and the word was God.

Up until the point where the voice of God was seen walking around in the garden during the cool of the day, the Holy Spirit and God were also identified separately.

The trinity is there in the first 3 chapters of genesis, including the incarnate voice or word of God.
 
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LightBearer

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I've been reading the Bible, and reading what Christians here say.
I'm questioning, and trying to see what makes sense to me...
I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently

A very wise move Tellyontellyon,

Make the most of it.

That's the only site where you will get the bibles answer to your questions and learn the truth of what the bible really teaches. You'll get nothing more than a Hodgepodge of confusion here.

By the way, the Trinity is a Satanic, God dishonoring doctrine, designed to sow confusion in the minds of man as to who the only true God, Jehovah, really is. Preventing many from the precious privilege of knowing and forming a relationship with him. Also robbing him of the exclusive devotion and worship that he alone so rightly deserves.

Exodus 20:1-5 “You must not have any other gods against my face. . .“because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion . . . "

Rev 4:11 "“You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created. (He created all things through an agent, his son. It was a family enterprise)

Matt 4:10 "Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

John 17:3 "Jesus spoke . . . raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father . . . This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Stay safe and well,

LB

Watch out for the assault of confusion that follows.
 
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HTacianas

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I've been reading the Bible, and reading what Christians here say.
I'm questioning, and trying to see what makes sense to me...
I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently and been reading some of the stuff by the Unitarians.
It seems the Trinitarians would call the non-Trinitarians heretics and say they aren't Christians.... But that could be said the other way around too.
The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?

I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.

In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God.... They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they... It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Wouldn't it?

See Philo of Alexandria on the Word, of God, Son of God, and his idea of a "divine triad".

Philo was an Alexandrian Jew who lived around the time of Christ and the apostles. He uses the same words and concepts as both John and Paul but there is no proof that either influenced the other.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Up until the point where the voice of God was seen walking around in the garden during the cool of the day,
The 'voice' of God.... I thought it just said God was walking..... ?
Will check.....

From Genesis...
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”
 
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hedrick

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Here's something I just wrote in a different context, but realized might be useful here:

God works with his people in a variety of ways. First Century Judaism had many ways of talking about his presence. These included the Holy Spirit, and a set of what are sometimes called intermediate forms. Torah, Word, and Wisdom were spoken of as if they were separate entities, though it may be that there were more like extended metaphors. John 1 reflects this, but you'll see many places in the NT, some that are closer to 1st Cent Wisdom theology than John's Logos. (A personified Wisdom developed from the descriptions of Wisdom in Proverbs.) But all of this expressed the presence of a God who without them might tend to look isolated from us.

The NT refers to Father, Son and Holy Spirit a few places, and in more places refers to the Holy Spirit and the Son individually.

Now these could have been, and at times were, thought of simply as ways that we experience God, and thus not any distinction within God. I think there are both good and questionable reasons why it didn’t end there. Historically, I think it was for a bad reason: There was a strong commitment to God being impassible, unable to suffer. The ideas that later led to the Trinity and Incarnation seem to have taken over as a result of a controversy in which the earlier ideas led to the Father suffering. Even though it was only through his human form, that was considered unacceptable. Treating the Son as having a certain distinction preserved that Father from suffering.

From that point there were a set of controversies about how to think and speak about this distinction. Since everyone agreed that there’s only one God, but there has to be some kind of distinction between Father and Son, the term hypostasis was adopted to refer to the distinct aspects, and the term ousia to refer to what is common. (The Holy Spirit wasn’t critical in formulating the Trinity. Everyone understood that it was there, so it came along as the third person. Note that the original version of the Nicene Creed has a paragraph on the Father, a paragraph on the Son, and then “and in the Holy Spirit.”)

My understanding is that this really redefined two existing Greek words. You can’t learn much about the Trinity by looking at how those terms were used in Greek philosophy, since they were close to synonyms. But the Fathers understood that existing philosophy wasn’t up to describing God. So while they reused existing terms, they made them technical terms for what is distinct and what is common about God. I’m not sure they were always so clear that that’s what they were doing, but in retrospect it seems true. I believe lots of unnecessary debate could be avoided by saying simply that hypostasis is how we refer to the distinction between Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and ousia the nature of God himself.

I would argue that there’s another way to look at it that isn’t quite as strongly based on impassibility (which I think is clearly unbiblical). If Jesus shows us God, what kind of God does he show us? It’s not the pure unmoved mover. The Muslim God, and certain Jewish concepts of God, couldn’t possibly appear in a form that suffers. I would suggest that if Jesus shows us God, this implies a certain complexity about God, that’s he not just the masterful creator, but the obedient son, and thus experiences the relationship of love. Thus the idea that the three persons are just ways in which we experience God isn’t good enough. It characterizes God himself. (Note that this is close to Augustine's explanation. He says that the only distinction between Father, Son and Holy Spirit is relational. i.e. that there's only enough distinction to allow the relationship of love to exist within God. We don't want to say that God was unable to love until he created humans to love. The article on the Trinity in the Catholic Encyclopedia says that God is one, but experiences in a three-fold way.*)

But I’m far from clear that speaking of three hypostases is a natural way to refer to this. One problem I see with the traditional language is that it makes Father, Son and Holy Spirit look too much the same, like three of the same thing, which ends up being hard to distinguish from there Gods. But the Biblical basis isn’t so symmetrical. Son and Holy Spirit in the Bible are ways that God is present with his people. I think it is a mistake to make the Trinity about the number three. Rather, I would use more complex and less philosophical language. I would say that Biblically the Son and the Holy Spirit as ways in which God is present with us, but these are not just how we experience God, but that they truly reflect aspects of God himself. I would say that I'm Trinitarian, because I do recognize that Father, Son and Holy Spirit represent something about God himself and not just our experience of him, and I would certainly never support the idea that the Son is a separate and inferior entity (i.e. Arianism). But I think the Athanasian Creed goes too far beyond the Biblical ways of thinking and speaking (not to mention the anathemas, which have their own problem). The Nicene Creed doesn't have this problem.

-----

* Here's the actual phrase: "the same mind will have a three-fold consciousness, knowing itself in three ways in accordance with its three modes of existence."
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The 'voice' of God.... I thought it just said God was walking..... ?
Will check.....

From Genesis...
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”
It is rendered differently in an older translation. In the space of "sound" this is where voice pops up,
 
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Tellyontellyon

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It does seem to me that this whole idea of the trinity could be mistaken... Is the trinity doctrine more of s church tradition? I don't want to risk my soul by deluding myself.. how does one truly know?

This is the video I saw, it goes into John 1... Well, it's part 1 of the video, you can find the rest...
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Reminded of: Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. (2 Timothy 2:14)

In general, the revelation that Jesus Christ is God can only be revealed by God. This is the most basic revelation for a Christian to know.

I'm listening to the video, but his quotes from the scripture are all over the place and are taking it out of context. It kind of reminds me of the western translation of the tao te ching and the more local one has this funny discrepancy, where the western translation says that the tao is older than God, the local (claiming to be the true translation) says the tao is older than the emperor.

In general, you can't learn anything about this from looking at the specifics of possible translations, it just needs to be experienced.

In John 17 Jesus prayed that those who believe through the apostles would be one as He and the Father were one. So for believers who have been born again by the Holy Spirit, there is that capacity to participate in this type of oneness that is expressed through the trinity.

However, until you're born again, it's not something you can experience, so it won't make much sense.
 
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hedrick

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It does seem to me that this whole idea of the trinity could be mistaken... Is the trinity doctrine more of s church tradition? I don't want to risk my soul by deluding myself.. how does one truly know?

This is the video I saw, it goes into John 1... Well, it's part 1 of the video, you can find the rest.
The video is perfectly reasonable in its description of the grammar of John 1. But this exegesis isn’t going to be determined grammatically. I think the NEB translation is probably best, what God was the Word was. But there’s a known first-century background for John 1, and I think that tells us how it was intended.

Logos, like Wisdom, was a personification of some of God’s qualities, which was used as a way of talking about God’s presence. Identifying this with a human was, as far as I know, pretty radical. John is saying that Christ was God’s way of being present with us. Further, he is putting this in the context of Jewish thought, which thinks of Torah and Wisdom as representing God’s presence. It tells us that Jesus is the culmination of God’s past ways of being present. We will see throughout John that Jesus replaces or at least fulfills all of the major ways in which God encountered his people: Temple, Torah, Sabbath, etc. So this one verse really sets the stage for the whole Gospel. This doesn’t immediately establish a traditional Christology. But it goes beyond what the speaker believes.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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However, until you're born again, it's not something you can experience, so it won't make much sense.
The thing with that is is that there are Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, Hindus, and even Pagans that have had these transformative awakenings... One even begins to suspect that the theologies, philosophies or creeds that people believe become irrelevant and disappear in the blinding light of these transpersonal numinous experiences...
Maybe all that really matters is that you believe... something.
 
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Albion

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I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently and been reading some of the stuff by the Unitarians.
It seems the Trinitarians would call the non-Trinitarians heretics and say they aren't Christians.... But that could be said the other way around too.
The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?
First, I'd give some thought to the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Unitarians are positively dwarfed in numbers of adherents by Trinitarian Christians. And then also, both are protest movements of recent origin, and both were launched by relative unknowns, not anything like the many hundreds of scholars of Christian history.

Logically speaking, you might as well be telling us that you have read a few things written by advocates of the Flat Earth theory and simply cannot decide which side of that disagreement is correct.

In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God....
Not in the least. The Biblical evidence is rather strong. The reason people seem to want to say it's not a compelling belief is because they haven't bothered to research it. Consider the Scriptural evidence which refers to the nature of Jesus, plus Jesus' own words about himself, plus actions undertaken by him which can only be done by God...and it's a much stronger case than is often assumed.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The thing with that is is that there are Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, Hindus, and even Pagans that have had these transformative awakenings... One even begins to suspect that the theologies, philosophies or creeds that people believe become irrelevant and disappear in the blinding light of these transpersonal numinous experiences...
Maybe all that really matters is that you believe... something.
"these transformative awakenings" is kind of vague.

This might be why there are doctrines in Christianity that only make sense to those who have had the transformative awakening that comes from the Holy Spirit.

The libido oriented awakenings in other religions are not congruent with the christian one since they are different on a foundational level.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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The libido oriented awakenings in other religions are not congruent with the christian one since they are different on a foundational level.

But from their (other religions) perspective they could say the same about Christianity...
The holy spirit whispers into your ear that you believe the truth and the others are all libidinal, of the flesh?
But the person from another religion has the same whisper.... and they are just as convinced as you are...
... Though not all are necessarily as dismissive of plurality, but of course some are.... Even in Christianity, some would reject you for not being a real Christian, not the 'True Church'.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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But from their (other religions) perspective they could say the same about Christianity...
The holy spirit whispers into your ear that you believe the truth and the others are all libidinal, of the flesh?
But the person from another religion has the same whisper.... and they are just as convinced as you are...
... Though not all are necessarily as dismissive of plurality, but of course some are.... Even in Christianity, some would reject you for not being a real Christian, not the 'True Church'.
The sub forum you posted in is about exploring Christianity, so I posted in that context.

I get the general sense that you want to debate, this is kind of the wrong setting.

I'll just continue doing what I was doing, see post #3 for details.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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I get the general sense that you want to debate, this is kind of the wrong setting.
Well, exploring Christianity might involve some difficult questions. I'm not debating in order to win an argument, I'm asking about things that are not making sense.
If it is a debate, then it's a debate I'm happy to lose so long as I can experience the truth as a reality.
 
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The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?

Yes, right.

I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.

I'm not sure why the doctrine of the Trinity should "leap out at you"...

It is spelled out very clearly in Scripture, however.

In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God....

Really? "Stretch" is a rather subjective description of what one must do to see that Jesus is, and claims to be, God. It doesn't seem a "stretch" to me to discern the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible.

And why confine the search for Trinitarian doctrine to the Gospels? The Early Church didn't. They understood that the Gospels were accounts written by Christ's followers, not directly by Christ himself. They had to trust that writers of the Gospels were being accurate and truthful about their accounts of Christ just as they had to do for the various letters of Paul, Peter and James that also constitute the NT and which were believed to accurately communicate the truth concerning God, Christ and the Christian.

They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they...

Perhaps if they were writing mere religious propaganda. But, they weren't. They were offering eye-witness accounts of Christ words and deeds, each emphasizing a particular aspect of Christ and his teachings, which is consistent with the nature of eye-witness accounts rather than propaganda.

It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Would it? Polytheism abounded in the time of Christ. For the Jews, it might have been a challenge, but even then, there are distinct hints in the OT of the Trinitarian nature of God.
 
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