501c3 = "Being in Covenant with Baal"

NotreDame

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It can’t be that considerable because I’ve never heard of him, and I closely follow the news of all liturgical churches, which make up the majority of Christians (there are over a billion Catholics, 290 million Eastern Orthodox, 80 million Anglicans, 74 million Lutherans and 60 million Oriental Orthodox).

He has a considerable following in the U.S. There’s been a movement within the Pentecostal and charismatic groups in the U.S. of a belief in an OT style prophet/prophetic approach to guide the church, including in politics. Mark Taylor was but one so called prophet in the movement.

For more, read Charismatics are at war with each other over failed prophecies of Trump victory

In the OT, someone falsely prophesying was stoned to death. They cannot be stoned to death today in the U.S., rightfully so, but depressingly some Christians defend these people and their incorrect prophecies, make excuses, and embrace them as prophets anyway.
 
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1an

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When I look at American politics, the Trump administration, the people shot or killed on the streets, the culture divide, the theology I read on the forums, and knowing Satan is the god of this world, I can well understand and believe their claims.

Baal (Satan) IS the god of this world, the Bible tells us so, don't get used to it, fight it, but get right with God First and put on the whole armour of God, or the devil will devoir you.
.
 
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David Hunter

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Looks like you can still get the tax benefits of being a church without being a 501(c)(3)... See the attached document from the IRS.
 

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2PhiloVoid

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I became interested in this topic back in 2016. It's been hard to understand as far as finding stuff on the web, at least free materials. I'm interested in how the non 501c3 churches etc. operate. And coming from Social Science background, I'm a little curious on how it was popularized.

I knew a ministry that was not 501c3 that gave out warnings to not expect tax statements for deductions etc. and to adjust their donations downward if that was a problem or issue. But I'm a little foggy if that is how churches operated around 1954 and before.


I did find this article Googling the history of this, which looks kind of interesting for folks interested in the topic.

The Political Ban in 501(c)(3): Its Odd History | For Purpose Law Group

What's interesting to me in this is that this tax policy was informed by Lyndon B. Johnson. So, in figuring out some of the intention of this policy, one of the things we'd need to do is better understand Johnson's political philosophy. We might look into that and see what we find.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well the History article I linked to earlier is very educational on this. It seems like much of the motivation on the law going back to 1954 was because of political lobbying rather than election campaigning. Johnson somewhat muddied the waters, by including some language relating to campaigning in the original bill. Some people speculate he was getting revenge on a political enemy who defeated him in one election with the help of churches.

Ah, I see you're already leaning toward that research. ;)
 
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GreekOrthodox

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In the OT, someone falsely prophesying was stoned to death. They cannot be stoned to death today in the U.S., rightfully so, but depressingly some Christians defend these people and their incorrect prophecies, make excuses, and embrace them as prophets anyway.

That might bring down some of these "prophets". If you want OT prophets, then you get OT penalties!
 
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NotreDame

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That might bring down some of these "prophets". If you want OT prophets, then you get OT penalties!

Exactly. The risk of deceiving so many is palpable, and the deception deadly, which is why the OT penalty existed.
 
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Yekcidmij

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This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!" :)

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.


This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.

Sounds like he might not understand how taxation in the US works. If your organization isn't 501c3, it will have to be defined as some other org according to the IRS and United States and will probably pay taxes. If you don't define your "org" as an IRS category, then you won't get an EIN and you can't open bank accounts in the org's name, receive money in it's name, and treat it as an org for income and expenses. So, for legal tax purposes, the "org" would have to receive money in the name of an individual - someone like Mark Taylor - and their personal accounts. So it would be an "org" in theory only, but legally it would be an individual.

So ditching the 501c3 doesn't mean your org isn't "governed over" as Mark says in the video. It is still "governed over" by the laws of the USA and if it wasn't a 501c3 it would still have to comply with the US tax code. If your org isn't 501c3, then it will be defined as some other org category according to the IRS.

It makes me wonder if Mark Taylor isn't just trying to have his organization's money sent to his personal bank accounts and giving some religious gibberish for an excuse. A think a "covenant with baal" would be something more like this: you think you're sending money to an organization, but the organization isn't a legally defined organization and so you're really sending money to an individual.

Really though, he sounds like a charlatan out to dupe the gullible.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!" :)

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.






This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.
Obviously he is taking it a bit far. There is some truth to what he is saying tough and thus churches may be opening themselves up to to quite a few things by taking the easy route and conforming to something the ungodly set up.

That being said. I would like to point out that according to the IRS. Churches are automatically tax exempt and can receive tax exempt donations without registering with the IRS or becoming a 501c3. The reason for this says the IRS is the constitution. They are the only group that can do this. Which drives some secularists nuts. So that being said. To me it’s just crazy to conform with the worlds understanding of how this all works when you don’t have to. Yeah, of like so many other things. It will cause some division. But personally. I’d rather have the division. Why have any dealings with the government if you don’t have to?
Here is a link to my ministry webpage that quotes publication 527 on the matter. The links to the publication are no good because the IRS changes thier page locations every year along with what particular page number this info will be on. Not that it’s not easy enough to find if you think it is important. No My ministry is not a 501c3. Not that it matters. No one supports it anyway.
Your Church and 501(c)(3)
 
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Yekcidmij

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That being said. I would like to point out that according to the IRS. Churches are automatically tax exempt and can receive tax exempt donations without registering with the IRS or becoming a 501c3.

I took his comments to be broader than just churches and applying to christian organizations in general.

For churches, I'm pretty sure that if they don't define themselves as 501c3, then to be tax exempt, they still have to apply for and receive permission from the IRS and they still have to comply with IRS rules regarding their tax exempt status. They still need an EIN to open bank accounts in the church's name. So not defining the church as a 501c3 doesn't seem to "solve" Mark Taylor's presented "problem."

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!" :)

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.






This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still
This thread could potentially fit a number of boards depending on how it develops. I put it here because I think this teaching/preaching is nuts and therefore controversial. I really wanted to title this thread something like "You might be in Covenant with Baal and not know it!" :)

Because that is the actual gist of the claim by some of the Charismatic preachers who proclaim this (who incidentally are some of the same people with the various enthusiastic prophesies about Trump winning the election, and various Qanon stuff.)

Rather than me trying to explain the claim why don't you just watch the clip? It's less that 2 minutes.






This has been a topic, been wanting to talk about for years because it's so crazy 1) because it means that 99% of churches and other ministries are corrupt, 2) In the Bible covenant making and breaking is kind of a deliberate obvious thing unlike this.

I guess I held off on this topic because I do think that 501c3 has muzzled the conservative churches on speaking out on certain issues especially during the political season, and that it is good that churches know about the older tax system that is still on the books, but this is way over the top!

OK will be interesting if this thread stays on this board, or gets kicked over to some place like Ethics or Denominational theology, Covenant theology etc.
It is the law. No charitable organization can participate in politics. Unfortunately, the government does not regulate such activities. I wish they would so that we can get back to rendering unto God.
As far as Mark, he is part of the NAR a Kingdom Now Seven Mountain Domininist self proclaimed prophet. He also has a 5O1c3 drawing funds under a nonprofit status for pur personal profit. Sad.
The Restriction of Political Campaign Intervention by Section 501(c)(3) Tax-Exempt Organizations | Internal Revenue Service
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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I took his comments to be broader than just churches and applying to christian organizations in general.

For churches, I'm pretty sure that if they don't define themselves as 501c3, then to be tax exempt, they still have to apply for and receive permission from the IRS. They still need an EIN to open bank accounts in the church's name.
No, they do not. Your 100% percent incorrect about that.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Someone also mentioned that this does not prevent us from speaking out on various social issues, just not supporting a particular political party or candidate. I would think that while we are rejected by the world for holding and teaching against worldly desires, as long as we're not saying "Vote for X or vote for Bob Smith", I would believe we're within the 501c3 rights.

Really though, he sounds like a charlatan out to dupe the gullible.

So instead Cash app or Venmo me instead!

PS Paypal is also accepted.
 
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Yekcidmij

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No, they do not. Your 100% percent incorrect about that.

So if they don't organize as a 501c3, and don't apply for and receive tax exempt status, how do they receive an EIN? It seems according to the IRS guide I posted, they can't. And so they can't open bank accounts in the church's name - bank accounts would have to be held in the name of an individual

I admit to not being a tax accountant, so I could be missing something.
 
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topher694

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Obviously he is taking it a bit far. There is some truth to what he is saying tough and thus churches may be opening themselves up to to quite a few things by taking the easy route and conforming to something the ungodly set up.

That being said. I would like to point out that according to the IRS. Churches are automatically tax exempt and can receive tax exempt donations without registering with the IRS or becoming a 501c3. The reason for this says the IRS is the constitution. They are the only group that can do this. Which drives some secularists nuts. So that being said. To me it’s just crazy to conform with the worlds understanding of how this all works when you don’t have to. Yeah, of like so many other things. It will cause some division. But personally. I’d rather have the division. Why have any dealings with the government if you don’t have to?
Here is a link to my ministry webpage that quotes publication 527 on the matter. The links to the publication are no good because the IRS changes thier page locations every year along with what particular page number this info will be on. Not that it’s not easy enough to find if you think it is important. No My ministry is not a 501c3. Not that it matters. No one supports it anyway.
Your Church and 501(c)(3)
Do you have a driver's license?
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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I had to for our church
You did what you thought you had to do. Not what you had to do. Big difference. There are churches in the country who have not, some quite big.
So if they don't organize as a 501c3, and don't apply for and receive tax exempt status, how do they receive an EIN? It seems according to the IRS guide I posted, they can't. And so they can't open bank accounts in the church's name - bank accounts would have to be held in the name of an individual
I’m not a tax accountant, so I could be missing something.
I’m quite the expert on the subject having studied it extensively many years ago. As far as a church or church based organization is concerned. There are 0 federal laws, statutes or IRS rules that a church registers with it. Lots of churches don’t. Even some quite large ones and they are all tax exempt. They don’t need an EIN because pastors are treated as independent contractors. Banks that require an EIN are not doing that because there is a federal or state law or rule. It’s simply the banks policy due to ignorance of the law. In my state AZ. A church or church based ministry is required to register with the state. More like a trade name registration than anything else. I have done that and that was all Wells Fargo needed. The other banks. Not so much. You would have to be some big church with a lawyer who knows his stuff and threaten them with a lawsuit if they did not let you open an account. Just depends on the bank.

Now when your getting into church employees. teachers, janitors, grounds keepers, secretaries. Big church stuff outside of pastors. Then your talking something different. You talking employment laws. As a church. If this is really important to them. They can get around it in a number of ways that may be to much of a hassle to deal with. I would suggest putting all those employees in a different, registered 501c3 organization with an EIN. You could go to bat and say your a church and pay them all as private contractors and withhold with 1099. The IRS is not going to mess with a church unless they are crooked. Some states might try.

the IRS tried to sue a church back in the 60’s that was not registered. The judge said to the IRS that they were claiming that a church can’t operate the same way the founders of their religion operated. And threw out the case. That is presidence. There was a lawyer who had an organization who helped churches set up in various ways like this. Don’t know if it is still around.

Do you have a driver's license?
Not relevant to the fact that churches are specifically mentioned in the constitution as non-regulatable by the feds.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Been reading the comments, I think the idea that creating an organization where the money goes into the pastor's personal account instead of an organizational account (since they're unable to create one) may be the motive here. (being that it doesn't make too much of a difference if churches register specifically, since the IRS will categorize your organization if you do not categorize yourself.)

If the offerings were sent to the church bank account, then agreed upon rules regarding it's spending would be in effect. However, if it's sent to a personal account, he can spend it however he likes.
 
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