Justification?

Butterball1

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Good Day,

Justification is declared about someone... on the basis of Faith.

YLT: Gal 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

In Him

Bill
So what does "Faith" mean?

Romans 5:1 says "faith" justifies while James 2:24 says "faith only" does NOT justify.

Since "faith" justifies and "faith only" does NOT justy then "faith" and "faith only" cannot be the same thing.

If "faith" and "faith only" were the same thing then they both would justify or neither would justify. But since "faith" justifies and "faith only" does not justify they must be exact opposites.

The exact opposite difference being "faith" includes obedience to God's will while "faith only" is void of obedience being alone therefore dead.

Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" take away the blood then the flesh being alone is dead. Similarly the life of faith is in obedience, take away the obedience then faith is dead being alone. The Bible ties faith & obedient works so closely that faith itself is an obedient work....they are inseparable and one must have BOTH in order to be saved. Those, as Luther, who try and separate the two make faith dead being alone.
 
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Butterball1

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We are in agreement.

Paul does not teach that a faith which includes works is not justification/righteousness.

Paul teaches that it is not the works of that faith which justify, it is only the faith which is justification/righteousness.

We are agreed that Paul teaches the obedience of sanctification/righteousness involves works.

Paul excudes the work perfect, flawless law keeping the OT law required to be justied, Romans 4:5 and excluded works of merit Epheisans 2:9 but Paul never excluded the work of obedience to God's will. Again, Paul and James agree that obedience to God's will is necessary to being saved:

James 2:24-----------------works (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Romans 6:17-18-----------obey from the heart (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>justifes(frees from sin)

The Bible gives man only 2 eternal fates, condemned or saved, no third option. Paul puts forth these two options in Romans 6:16:
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

1) serving sin unto death = condemnation
2) serving obedience unto righteousness = saved

I serve obedience unto righteousness. Those who have allowed themselves to follow Luther's 'faith only' which do they serve?
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
We are in agreement.
Paul does not teach that a faith which includes works is not justification/righteousness.
Paul teaches that it is not the works of that faith which justify, it is only the faith which is justification/righteousness.

We are agreed that Paul teaches the obedience of sanctification/righteousness involves works.
Paul excudes the work perfect, flawless law keeping the OT law required to be justied, Romans 4:5 and excluded works of merit Epheisans 2:9 but Paul never excluded the work of obedience to God's will. Again, Paul and James agree that obedience to God's will is necessary to being saved:

James 2:24-----------------works (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Romans 6:17-18-----------obey from the heart (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>justifes(frees from sin)

The Bible gives man only 2 eternal fates, condemned or saved, no third option. Paul puts forth these two options in Romans 6:16:
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

1) serving sin unto death = condemnation
2) serving obedience unto righteousness = saved

I serve obedience unto righteousness. Those who have allowed themselves to follow Luther's 'faith only' which do they serve?
Did you miss post #20?
.
 
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Butterball1

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Did you miss post #20?
.
In my post #38 I addressed what you typed at the beginning of post #20.

There was no verse cited in post 20 where Paul excluded obedience to God's will.

The order of events in Romans 5:17-18 as Paul puts them:
1) servant of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin (justified) BECAME servants of righteousness

Paul puts OBEDIENCE to God's will BEFORE justification. One obeys to BECOME a servant of righteousness which means one is lost and remains lost in serving unrighteousness unless/until they obey from the heart to BECOME a servant of righteousness/justified.

Therefore if Paul ever excluded obedience to God's will in Romans 4:5 or Ephesians 2:9 or elsehwere he contradicts himself. Paul being inpsired by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirt never contradicts Himself.

========================

The Bible gives man only 2 eternal fates, condemned or saved, no third option. Paul puts forth these two options in Romans 6:16:
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

1) serving sin unto death = condemnation
2) serving obedience unto righteousness = saved

I serve obedience unto righteousness. Those who have allowed themselves to follow Luther's 'faith only' which do they serve?
 
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BBAS 64

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So what does "Faith" mean?

Romans 5:1 says "faith" justifies while James 2:24 says "faith only" does NOT justify.

Since "faith" justifies and "faith only" does NOT justy then "faith" and "faith only" cannot be the same thing.

If "faith" and "faith only" were the same thing then they both would justify or neither would justify. But since "faith" justifies and "faith only" does not justify they must be exact opposites.

The exact opposite difference being "faith" includes obedience to God's will while "faith only" is void of obedience being alone therefore dead.

Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" take away the blood then the flesh being alone is dead. Similarly the life of faith is in obedience, take away the obedience then faith is dead being alone. The Bible ties faith & obedient works so closely that faith itself is an obedient work....they are inseparable and one must have BOTH in order to be saved. Those, as Luther, who try and separate the two make faith dead being alone.


Good Day, Butterball

You are confusing contexts as well as intent:

Premier NT Greek Scholar Thomas Schreiner addresses it here in short:

Do Paul and James Disagree on Justification by Faith Alone?

In Him,

Bill
 
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Butterball1

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Good Day, Butterball

You are confusing contexts as well as intent:

Premier NT Greek Scholar Thomas Schreiner addresses it here in short:

Do Paul and James Disagree on Justification by Faith Alone?

In Him,

Bill

Hi,

Simply showed that "faith" and "faith only" are two completely different things.

Per your link you provided, James and Paul agree 100% that obedience to God's will justifies:

James 2:24----------------------------works (obeying God)>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Romans 6:17-18--------------obeyed from the heart (obeying God>>>>>justifies/frees from sin

Both therefore agree faith only is dead and cannot justify.

There's an old saying/adage about throwing a wrench in a well oiled, running machine. The Bible is a well oiled machine running perfectly, faith only is a wrench.
 
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Ephfourfive

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In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul is stressing that love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" are now seen (Hebrews 11:1) once we are in the presence of the Lord and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because He has appeared and believers will be with Him forever, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity. So Paul is not teaching that we are saved by faith "plus acts of charity/works." All genuine believers love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13) We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

This verse simply says it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf. This does not negate Romans 5:1 which clearly states that man is justified by faith and not faith + suffering. Ephesians 2:8,9 says saved by grace through faith, not works, and not faith + suffering.

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8.9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) Now which tense is Paul talking about in Romans 13:11?

Mk 16:16
Acts 8
Faith and baptism
 
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Ephfourfive

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Good Day

That just begs the question where does the Bible state they are necessary?

Now I do know that the Roman Church for the sakes of their members asserts such necessity. There are 2 issues with that assertion I am not a member of their denomination, and 2 they are sorely mistaken in their baseless assertion.

In Him

Bill
No denominations in the Bible There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!
 
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bling

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Ge 15:6?
In the OT those who believed in the Promise (seed, Jesus Christ--Ge1 5:5) were justified.

Pauls take on justification is somewhat different.
Gen. 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
What is the difference between being righteous and being justified?
 
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Clare73

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In my post #38 I addressed what you typed at the beginning of post #20.

There was no verse cited in post 20 where Paul excluded obedience to God's will.

The order of events in Romans 5:17-18 as Paul puts them:
1) servant of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin (justified) BECAME servants of righteousness

Paul puts OBEDIENCE to God's will BEFORE justification. One obeys to BECOME a servant of righteousness which means one is lost and remains lost in serving unrighteousness unless/until they obey from the heart to BECOME a servant of righteousness/justified.

Therefore if Paul ever excluded obedience to God's will in Romans 4:5 or Ephesians 2:9 or elsehwere he contradicts himself. Paul being inpsired by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirt never contradicts Himself.

========================

The Bible gives man only 2 eternal fates, condemned or saved, no third option. Paul puts forth these two options in Romans 6:16:
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

1) serving sin unto death = condemnation
2) serving obedience unto righteousness = saved

I serve obedience unto righteousness. Those who have allowed themselves to follow Luther's 'faith only' which do they serve?
Ro 5 does not address justification itself.

The context of Ro 5 is a contrasting parallel of imputations, first establishing the unrighteousness (5:12-14) of all mankind (see Ro 3:9, 10, 5:12 11:32; Gal 3:22) due to the imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:18-19), and then paralleling it in contrast to the righteousness of all the regenerate due to the imputation of Christ's righteousness, through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Ro 5:18-19)
 
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Clare73

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Gen. 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
What is the difference between being righteous and being justified?
The OT is the NT concealed, the NT is the OT revealed. . .translate: the OT must be understood in the light of the NT.

The OT states that some are "just" and "perfect" (e.g., Noah, Ge 6:9).
This is to be understood in the light of NT revelation given to Paul by Jesus Christ, personally in the third heaven where he heard inexpressible things man is not permitted to tell (2Co 12:1-5); i.e., in the NT sense of "righteousness," where Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin; no one is righteous, not even one (Ro 3:9, 10; see Ro 5:12, 11:32; Gal 3:22).

That Noah was just (righteous), perfect (blameless) does not carry the same meaning in which the NT uses the word "righteous."
In the OT, it meant godly, not sinless perfection.

In the NT, righteousness is used two ways by Paul--as in
sanctification of the justified through obedience, which involves works, and as in
justification (declared "not guilty," set in right relationship with God) through faith, apart from works.

The issue in the NT importance of separating works from justification (salvation) is the redeemed having a full understanding and appreciation
of the sheer magnitude of their blessing from the goodness of God in their redemption. . .and at so great a price to him,
a salvation that is all of God and nothing (nada, zero, zip) of man, for "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Rev 7:10),
so that no one can boast (Eph 2:9; 1Co 1:29), they can only marvel in gratitude and praise of the glorious goodness of God!
 
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Danthemailman

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James 2:24-----------------works (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Romans 6:17-18-----------obey from the heat (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>>justifes(frees from sin)
Certain people ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

James & Paul are in 100% agreement that a faith that includes works (obedience) justifies and "faith without works" is dead being alone.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

When James says "faith without works is dead" he does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims (key word) they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Romans 5:1 says "faith" justifies while James 2:24 says "faith only" does NOT justify.
Romans 5:1 is talking about authentic faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. James 2:24 is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone (barren of works).

Since "faith" justifies and "faith only" does NOT justy then "faith" and "faith only" cannot be the same thing.
Authentic faith in Christ justifies and this kind of faith results in producing evidential works which demonstrates that it's alive in Christ, while faith only - empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works cannot do the same thing because it's not authentic faith but a bare profession of faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :)
 
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Danthemailman

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Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9.

Faith and baptism
Romans 5:1 - Therefore having been justified by faith (and baptism? NO) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (and baptism? NO) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 
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Ephfourfive

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Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore having been justified by faith (and baptism? NO) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (and baptism? NO) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

It is implied
And the covenant requires an outward sign of initiation into the covenant and union with the mediator and communion with God

The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God!

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

Mark 16:16 The requirements for those who are being saved cannot be undone by the requirements for those not being saved! He who believes and is baptized is still required for salvation? Heaven and earth may pass away but my words shall not pass away!

It is Reasonable that if they reject faith why bother mentioning the second requirement?
 
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Butterball1

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Ro 5 does not address justification.

The context of Ro 5 is a contrasting parallel of imputations, first establishing the unrighteousness (5:12-14) of all mankind (see Ro 3:9, 10, 5:12 11:32; Gal 3:22) due to the imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:18-19), and then paralleling it in contrast to the righteousness of all the regenerate due to the imputation of Christ's righteousness, through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Ro 5:18-19)

You're not being consistent with your interpretation of Romans 5.

One one hand you say "unrighteousness of ALL MANKIND due to imputation of Adams sin.

Then when it comes to Christ you use the term REGENERATE instead of "all mankind".

This is NOT consistent for you are changing terminology going from 19a to 19b to fit your theological bias of OS into the verse.

Romans 5:19
(a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
(b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1) again if 19(a) is true then 19(b) is equally true. If all are made sinners uncondtionally then that same all will be unconditionally be made righteous. Being made righteous means being saved. So if 19a says all are UNconditionally condemned by Adam (UNIVERSAL condemnation) then that same all we be UNconditionally saved/made righteous (Universal salvation). Since neither is true, then the interpreation of this verse by those that support OS can easily be rejected.

2) the verse does not say nor even suggest that many were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin. That is assumed into the verse. It also does not say many are UNconditionally made righteous by Christ's obedience. Men are conditionally made sinners by choosing to sim Romans 5:12 as many are made righteous by conditionally choosing to have faith.

3) the verse says 'many" not 'all'. ALL are not made sinners for all have not sinned. Christ did not sin, infants who die as infants do not transgress GOd's law, those born with severe mental conditions do not sin not being accountable to God's law. All are not made righteous for all will not obey God's will.

There is NOTHING in Romans 5 that even resembles the idea of OS. Paul spends first 3 chapters of Romans proving both Jew and Gentile are sinners yet NOWHERE does he mention the idea of OS. No better place for OS to be talked about than in the first 3 chapters of Romans and it's not even in Paul's mind!!! Paul proves Jews and Gentiles are sinners by transgressions committed (1 John 3:4) against God.

==========================
Which do you serve?

The Bible gives man only 2 eternal fates, condemned or saved, no third option. Paul puts forth these two options in Romans 6:16:
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

1) serving sin unto death = condemnation
2) serving obedience unto righteousness = saved

I serve obedience unto righteousness. Those who have allowed themselves to follow Luther's 'faith only' which do they serve?
 
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Butterball1

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James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Certain people ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

When James says "faith without works is dead" he does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims (key word) they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Romans 5:1 is talking about authentic faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. James 2:24 is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone (barren of works).

Authentic faith in Christ justifies and this kind of faith results in producing evidential works which demonstrates that it's alive in Christ, while faith only - empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works cannot do the same thing because it's not authentic faith but a bare profession of faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :)

James is using justified in the same way Paul uses justified. The difference in what Paul and James is saying is in WHAT TYPE of work justifies and what type of work does NOT justify. James shows the work of being obedient to GOd's will justifies, James 2:21-24 and Paul is saying the flawless, perfect sinless works required by the OT law does not justify.

If Abraham had not obeyed God in Genesis 12 in moving from his house, land, kindred he would never have been justified. Abraham's justification was a process that began in Gen 12 and he met the final test in Genesis 22 when he offered Isaac. Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." "Now I know" is not said in Gen 12,15,17 but not until Gen 22. Had Abraham failed this final test he would not have been justified. This is why James cites Gen 22 in James 2:21 as the point of Abraham's final justification.

Therefore Abraham was not unconditionally, totally justified in Gen 12 or Gen 15 once and for all time regardless of what he did. For had he disobeyed in Gen 22 and not obeyed by offering Isaac he would not have been justified. Therefore Paul is NOT saying in Romans 4:3 that Abraham was justified by "faith alone" in Gen 15:6 once and for all time regardless of what Abraham did for again had Abraham not obeyed in Gen 22 he would not have been justified. So Paul's point in Rom 4 is NOT that justification is by "faith alone" but is showing justification does not come by trying to keep the OT law flawlessly and perfectly. Instead justification comes by an obedient faith in doing what God says....as Abraham obeyed God from Gen 12 to Gen 22.

Again, the reason Paul cited Genesis 15:6 in Romans 4:3 was to show Abraham was justified by faith and not by works required by the law of Moses. Genesis 15:6 uses the words Paul needed to show Abraham was justified by faith (Paul says "faith" NOT "faith alone"). Simply because Paul picked Genesis 15:6 to make his point does NOT means Abraham wasn't justified before Gen 15. Paul speaks of "righteousness of faith" in Romans 4:13. Abraham had faith back in Genesis 12 when he moved from his home per Hebrews 11:8. Therefore Abrham faith would be seen as righteous by God in Gen 12 BEFORE Gen 15. Genesis 15:6 is just a continuation of the process of Abraham's justification that began in Gen 12 with the final test in Gen 22.

Therefore James is NOT using justified to "show or exhibit" that Abraham had already been justified unconditionally once and for all time by faith alone in Gen 15:6 but to point to the final justification of Abraham in Gen 22 when he OBEYED God in offering Isaac. Had Abraham disobeyed in Gen 22 he would NOT have been justified. Justication was a process with Abraham.

EDIT James 2:25 "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

James does not use "justified" to "show or exhibit" that Rahab had already been unconditionally justified by 'faith alone' at some earlier point in time when she in fact had not been. Instead she was not justified until she did an obedient work..... Hebrews 11:31. Had Rahab done nothing to help the spies, her faith would have been useless, dead, worthless.

As it has been said many times, James' use of Abraham and Rahab is to show true proof of faith is works from a high patriarch to a lowest prostitute. God's standards are the same for all...obedience is required to be justified. Faith alone is dead without obedient works.
 
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bling

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The OT is the NT concealed, the NT is the OT revealed. . .translate: the OT must be understood in the light of the NT.

The OT states some are "just" and "perfect" (e.g., Noah, Ge 6:9).
This is to be understood in the light of NT revelation given to Paul by Jesus Christ, personally in the third heaven where he heard inexpressible things man is not permitted to tell (2Co 12:1-5); i.e., in the NT sense of "righteousness," where Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin; no one is righteous, not even one (Ro 3:9, 10; see Ro 5:12, 11:32; Gal 3:22).

That Noah was just (righteous), perfect (blameless) does not carry the same meaning in which the NT uses the work "righteous."
In the OT, it meant godly, not sinless perfection.

In the NT, righteousness is used two ways by Paul--as in
sanctification of the justified through obedience, which involves works, and as in
justification (declared "not guilty," set in right relationship with God) through faith, apart from works.

The issue in the NT importance of separating works from justification (salvation) is the redeemed having a full understanding and appreciation
of the sheer magnitude of their blessing from the goodness of God in their redemption. . .and at so great a price to him,
a salvation that is all of God and nothing (nada, zero, zip) of man, for "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Rev 7:10),
so that no one can boast (Eph 2:9; 1Co 1:29), they can only marvel in gratitude and praise of the glorious goodness of God!
For today: What is the difference between being righteous and being justified?
 
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Clare73

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You're not being consistent with your interpretation of Romans 5.

One one hand you say "unrighteousness of ALL MANKIND due to imputation of Adams sin.

Then when it comes to Christ you use the term REGENERATE instead of "all mankind".

This is NOT consistent for you are changing terminology going from 19a to 19b to fit your theological bias of OS into the verse.
First of all , this is not an understanding peculiar to me, it is the understanding of the Reformation. Now to address that understanding.

My "inconsistency" is due to consistency with the rest of Paul in the NT.

Helpful, though, is understanding that in Paul's usage throughout the NT, "all" is used in two ways, particularly seen when he is dealing with the difference between unbelieving Jews and believing Gentiles:
1) all without exception = all mankind
2) all without distinction = Gentile as well as Jew, or Jew as well as Gentile.
He uses 1) in regard to condemnation due to Adam's sin, and
he uses 2) in regard to imputation of righteousness.
Romans 5:19
(a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
(b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1) again if 19(a) is true then 19(b) is equally true. If all are made sinners uncondtionally then that same all will be unconditionally be made righteous. Being made righteous means being saved. So if 19a says all are UNconditionally condemned by Adam (UNIVERSAL condemnation) then that same all we be UNconditionally saved/made righteous (Universal salvation). Since neither is true, then the interpreation of this verse by those that support OS can easily be rejected.

2) the verse does not say nor even suggest that many were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin. That is assumed into the verse. It also does not say many are UNconditionally made righteous by Christ's obedience. Men are conditionally made sinners by choosing to sim Romans 5:12 as many are made righteous by conditionally choosing to have faith.

3) the verse says 'many" not 'all'. ALL are not made sinners for all have not sinned. Christ did not sin, infants who die as infants do not transgress GOd's law, those born with severe mental conditions do not sin not being accountable to God's law. All are not made righteous for all will not obey God's will.

There is NOTHING in Romans 5 that even resembles the idea of OS. Paul spends first 3 chapters of Romans proving both Jew and Gentile are sinners yet NOWHERE does he mention the idea of OS. No better place for OS to be talked about than in the first 3 chapters of Romans and it's not even in Paul's mind!!! Paul proves Jews and Gentiles are sinners by transgressions committed (1 John 3:4) against God.

==========================
Which do you serve?

The Bible gives man only 2 eternal fates, condemned or saved, no third option. Paul puts forth these two options in Romans 6:16:
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

1) serving sin unto death = condemnation
2) serving obedience unto righteousness = saved

I serve obedience unto righteousness. Those who have allowed themselves to follow Luther's 'faith only' which do they serve?
 
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Clare73

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For today: What is the difference between being righteous and being justified?
In the NT usage, there is none, justification is righteousness = "not guilty," in right relationship with God through faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin, not based on any good works.

It should also be noted that in the NT sanctification is righteousness--growth in separation from sin (pluck it out, cut it off) and obedience to God, which involves works.

When the word "righteousness" is used, the context, in light of the whole NT, will show which one Paul is using.
 
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hedrick

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Any scripture for justification by “faith alone”?
Luke 15:11 ff (the prodigal son). Jesus teaching has two consistent implications:
  • God love us. We don't have to do anything to earn that
  • We will be held accountable for how we live.
That corresponds to Paul's message, which many scholars summarize as "justification by faith and judgement by works."
 
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