Questions to Catholics and Orthodox: Re: Works/Salvation?
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Soyeong
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Romans 4:1-5 is specifically speaking about Abraham being justified by his faith when he believed God and against him earning his justification by his works as through it were a wage, but it is not speaking about justification requiring works for other reason, such as faith. It needs to be balanced against Romans 2:13, where only doers of the law will be justified, and James 2:21-22, where Abraham was justified by his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not justified by his works insofar as they were a wage.
The phrase "works of the law" does not have an definitive article in the Greek, so it is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as THE Law of Moses, but rather Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are the law of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds the Mosaic Law, so it is the law of faith.
Colossians 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?
The holy, righteous, and good laws of God are not basic principles of the world and are not according to human precepts and teachings, so those verses are referring to pagan teachings, not to the laws of God.
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Soyeong
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Romans 4:4-5 (YLT) and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt; 5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness:
The word used can mean "and", through again Paul was specifically referring only to works done as a wage and not to other works.
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Receive His Holy Spirit. We must be regenerated in order to be in The Body of Christ. This is the Born Again experience. Through Grace The Father has revealed Himself in His Son Jesus Christ of Nazareth. When we believe in Him we are in union with the Father and in His Kingdom where Christ is King. Our works are the fruit of our conversion. Faith without works is dead. Be blessed.
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Soyeong
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There are many verses that associate belief with works in obedience to God and breaking faith with disobedience to Him. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works. In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Romans 16:25-26, Paul's Gospel and the preaching of Christ was to bring about the obedience of faith. In Deuteronomy 28:1, it speaks about faithfully obeying the voice of the Lord. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (2 Samuel 7:28, Nehemiah 9:13, Psalms 19:7, 18:30, 33:4, 111:7, 119:30, 42, 75, 86, 99, 138, 142, 151, 160) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver.
In Deuteronomy 32:51, Moses broke faith with God because he did not obey what God commanded him to do. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Joshua 7:1 and 1 Chronicles 2:7, Israel broke faith by not doing what God commanded. In 1 Chronicles 10:13, Saul broke faith because he did not keep the command of the Lord. In 2 Chronicles 33:19, sin is equated with faithlessness. In Jeremiah 3:6-14, Israel was faithless because they did not obey God. In Ezekiel 14:13, sin is equated with acting faithlessly. In Psalms 119:158, David said that he looked at the faithless with disgust because they did not keep God's commands. In Romans 1:29-32 and Revelation 21:8, being faithless is associated with actions that are in disobedience to God. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being corrupted of mind and disqualified in regard to the faith. So only those who have faith will obey God's law and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, but denied in Romans 4:4-5 that we earn our justification by being doers of the law.
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Are we saved by faith or works? IMO, this statement merely shows a misunderstanding of the meaning of both words.
In any case, it shows considerable hubris to say that we know God's rules for determining who He will chose as his friends. I'm sure that the more sure a person is with regard to these definitions and restrictions, the higher the number of surprises (s)he will meet in heaven.
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We are save by Grace ALONE. There is no need for addition to this statement. God chooses who he wills.
I do believe that we can go a bit further. As I have heard and taught about the nature of Grace
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense
=============
Yes, Jesus gives us the free gift of saving grace in Christ Jesus. But we MUST avoid thinking that anything is required by us, to be ADDED to Christ's gift.
=============
I suppose we can argue about cooperation, rejection, and whether we can ever walk away. This is a mystery. However, what I do know is that I need to add nothing to be good enough, righteous enough, be chosen by God.
In any case, it shows considerable hubris to say that we know God's rules for determining who He will chose as his friends. I'm sure that the more sure a person is with regard to these definitions and restrictions, the higher the number of surprises (s)he will meet in heaven.
==========
We are save by Grace ALONE. There is no need for addition to this statement. God chooses who he wills.
I do believe that we can go a bit further. As I have heard and taught about the nature of Grace
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense
=============
Yes, Jesus gives us the free gift of saving grace in Christ Jesus. But we MUST avoid thinking that anything is required by us, to be ADDED to Christ's gift.
=============
I suppose we can argue about cooperation, rejection, and whether we can ever walk away. This is a mystery. However, what I do know is that I need to add nothing to be good enough, righteous enough, be chosen by God.
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"believing" can be a work if we mean statement of faith or a walk down the aisle, or participating in any active sign of belief.
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I think Ephesians is a good book to study on soteriology.
Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Ephesians 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Ephesians 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Ephesians 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
So from this, a few things should be clear:
1. We once walked in step with the world and with Satan. (We were sinners)
2. By God's mercy we were saved. (God's grace saves as a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit)
3. It is through salvation and salvation alone that we can do Good works. (We can't boast in our own works as they come from above and have been set before us for us to do them by God's sovereign will)
That would be the nuts and bolts of it I think.
Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Ephesians 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Ephesians 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Ephesians 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
So from this, a few things should be clear:
1. We once walked in step with the world and with Satan. (We were sinners)
2. By God's mercy we were saved. (God's grace saves as a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit)
3. It is through salvation and salvation alone that we can do Good works. (We can't boast in our own works as they come from above and have been set before us for us to do them by God's sovereign will)
That would be the nuts and bolts of it I think.
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Isa43
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If you believe in the Gospels, then you believe the Son of God and what He says. I follow what what He says according to your Faith. As you stumble in carrying the cross of our Lord, In which He has said that, "No man has never not sinned," but you in faith keep going. By that He increases your faith, and by works you show others your faith. They all watch you and your walk.
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You say "we remain" in salvation by works. Then it's not really the works that saves us, but faith. Works are needed to keep the faith, right?
I believe we are saved when we have been born again, then Christ Spirit dwells in us. But disobedience to God can quench the Spirit, which separates us from the union with Christ. My view is that works are never salvific, but they do play a part since "bad works"/sin can effect our faith, thereby our relationship with Christ.
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I think people can overanalyze.
Over think.
In the end nothing you do can be good enough to earn salvation.Nor is your faith strong enough to say to a mountain rise up and drop in the sea.
You rely on grace from the just jduge.
But when Jesus speaks of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 he is clearly saying "do this or else..."
And of the eucharist "eat my flesh....and I will raise you up". He means it!
You have free will to choose whether or not to do them every day. They are not automatic, nor is keeping commandments.
But all those who say "faith alone"
Can you imagine yourself at judgement having a theological argument with Him saying "well I didnt bother Lord, because in romans 10:9 you tell me all I need do is confess you are Lord"..so thats all I did.. he will reply "else where I tell you not all who say Lord will be saved!"
I think you would lose the argument......
You could liken all this to a job interview, which asks you to present certain experience and qualifications.
NONE of it is enough to get you the job. NONE of it is enough by itself.
The grace of the interviewer decides that. But if you don't have it, you certainly wont get the job!
When the Lord says "do this", all should "do this" and not analyse whether it is necessary! You are not saved by the works, but woe betide you if you did not make the effort....
Christians should strive to do these things without question. Not ask if they are necessary. Obedience is part of faith.
Part of the problem is meanings of words. What is "faith" in "faith alone?" . Jimmy aitkens book the "salvation controversy" goes a long way to show that disagreement on meanings of words ,has led to much of the arguments . One section of Lutheran reached an accord with the Holy See on "faith alone" accepting that the definition of "faith" involved charity.
Over think.
In the end nothing you do can be good enough to earn salvation.Nor is your faith strong enough to say to a mountain rise up and drop in the sea.
You rely on grace from the just jduge.
But when Jesus speaks of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 he is clearly saying "do this or else..."
And of the eucharist "eat my flesh....and I will raise you up". He means it!
You have free will to choose whether or not to do them every day. They are not automatic, nor is keeping commandments.
But all those who say "faith alone"
Can you imagine yourself at judgement having a theological argument with Him saying "well I didnt bother Lord, because in romans 10:9 you tell me all I need do is confess you are Lord"..so thats all I did.. he will reply "else where I tell you not all who say Lord will be saved!"
I think you would lose the argument......
You could liken all this to a job interview, which asks you to present certain experience and qualifications.
NONE of it is enough to get you the job. NONE of it is enough by itself.
The grace of the interviewer decides that. But if you don't have it, you certainly wont get the job!
When the Lord says "do this", all should "do this" and not analyse whether it is necessary! You are not saved by the works, but woe betide you if you did not make the effort....
Christians should strive to do these things without question. Not ask if they are necessary. Obedience is part of faith.
Part of the problem is meanings of words. What is "faith" in "faith alone?" . Jimmy aitkens book the "salvation controversy" goes a long way to show that disagreement on meanings of words ,has led to much of the arguments . One section of Lutheran reached an accord with the Holy See on "faith alone" accepting that the definition of "faith" involved charity.
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Danthemailman
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Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony* 
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HappyHope
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Great points. It seems it is a risk no matter if you say "faith alone" or mention good works; someone is going to take it too far either way. The emphasis the Bible writers put on the two concepts was to combat legalism and give Christ the credit he deserves on one side and warn against permissive faith on the other end of the spectrum, which does no credit to anyone.
Today evangelical churches lean towards permissive religion I feel. Not all but more than a few. Protestants are separate from evangelicals in my mind. Traditionally, Protestants leaned towards works over faith but maybe that has changed?
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Cis.jd
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There are many people who believe in God (in every way you do) but are horrible human beings. If God just judges based on believing in him only, and disregards any form of works a person does, then tell me how he isn't an insecure tyrant?
Here is the funny thing i find about many protestants who I have seen arguing against Faith and works, they are the same protestants i see in other threads condemning various things like watching harry potter, doing yoga, divorcing an abusive husband, homosexuality, etc.. if faith alone is what matters as you say, then what's the problem?
Here is the funny thing i find about many protestants who I have seen arguing against Faith and works, they are the same protestants i see in other threads condemning various things like watching harry potter, doing yoga, divorcing an abusive husband, homosexuality, etc.. if faith alone is what matters as you say, then what's the problem?
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