Questions to Catholics and Orthodox: Re: Works/Salvation?

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PrettyboyAndy said:

Hello brothers and sisters,

I am not trying to start a argument, just want to ask.

What is your view regarding salvation, faith and good works?

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I can believe that a chair will not collapse under my weight.
Faith involves sitting on the chair. If I do not do the work of sitting in the chair, I have no faith.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Hello brothers and sisters,

I am not trying to start a argument, just want to ask.

What is your view regarding salvation, faith and good works?

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We enter into salvation by faith through God's grace. That entry into salvation includes belief, repentance, baptism, chrismation, and participation in the sacraments. After we enter into salvation it is our conduct, our works, that determine whether we remain in that salvation. Salvation itself is only attained at the end.

I think that the debates on this point between Catholics and Orthodox vs Protestants is a little misunderstood much of the time. Many/most Protestants will say that unless faith is sufficient to show good works, then the faith is not really a true saving faith and is therefore null and void. I am not Catholic or Orthodox, but it is my understanding that they pretty much teach the same thing. It is just that they do not like the phrase, saved by faith alone and to be honest, nor do I. The phrase is too misleading. We are not really saved by faith alone, as many Christians claim to have faith but they also live terrible lives and fail to show mercy to those in need. I personally do not see much difference between the two camps on this issue. It is really a matter of emphasis.

Both Jesus and Paul talked about faith. Both talked about good works. However, if you do some research online, you will see that most independent religious writers believe that Jesus emphasized good works and that Paul emphasized faith. Both are important. We take a risk when we say faith alone. Yes, I know what it is supposed to mean. However, we no longer live in the days of old when preachers emphasized the need to live holy lives and to forsake grave sin. Instead, we live in a time when tens of millions of Christians believe that all they need to get to Heaven is to believe in Jesus, but live anyway they want to. Hence, though I am Protestant, I side with the Catholics and Orthodox in rejecting the phrase, "by faith alone", as for many, it is a license to sin endlessly and still believe they are saved.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Hello brothers and sisters,

I am not trying to start a argument, just want to ask.

What is your view regarding salvation, faith and good works?

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Hello,

The issue is that good works can be done for reasons other than trying to earn our salvation, especially because that was never the purpose for which God commanded good works, so verses that speak against earning our salvation by our works should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring us to choose to do good works for some other reason, such as faith.

What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so good works in obedience to God are what faith looks like. Likewise, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who have faith in Jesus are the same as those who obey God's commandments. Every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of works. So only those who have faith in God to guide us will obey the Mosaic Law and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, but denied in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our justification by being doers of the law.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so he did not earn his justification by his obedience, but rather the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience. In James 2:21-22, Abraham was justified by his works, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so Abraham was justified by his works insofar as his works were an expression of his faith, but he was not justified by his works insofar as they were done to earn his justification.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so our salvation necessarily involves choosing to do good works through faith, and God graciously teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of the Mosaic Law looks like. Again, in Romans 2:13, our obedience to the Mosaic Law is a requirement for salvation. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of obeying the Mosaic Law is to know Christ, and knowing Christ is a requirement for salvation.

thecolorsblend said:

It's a cooperative endeavor. God offers, man accepts. This idea that we play no role at all in the process is absurd.

Even people who believe in "faith alone" have to reconcile the fact that the word "believe" is an action. It's a verb.

It's a work.

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How would you understand the but in Romans 4:5 then?

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Guojing said:

How would you understand the but in Romans 4:5 then?

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

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If you back up to Romans 3 you'll see that the writer is talking about the old Jewish law. "Works of the law". We do not perform the "works of the law". Christianity never has. No sacrifices in the temple, no epaphs of flour to the priests, no standing outside until sundown.

HTacianas said:

If you back up to Romans 3 you'll see that the writer is talking about the old Jewish law. "Works of the law". We do not perform the "works of the law". Christianity never has. No sacrifices in the temple, no epaphs of flour to the priests, no standing outside until sundown.

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So are you saying what Paul meant there is that believe is not a "work of the law" but it is a work of....(my guess is you would use the word faith)?

Guojing said:

So are you saying what Paul meant there is that believe is not a "work of the law" but it is a work of....(my guess is you would use the word faith)?

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He is talking about all the requirements of the Jewish law a person was required to perform to remain righteous. Even picking up a lizard would defile them. Touching a corpse or eating unclean foods. He mentioned them in particular to the Colossians in the same way:

Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

Col 2:21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

HTacianas said:

He is talking about all the requirements of the Jewish law a person was required to perform to remain righteous. Even picking up a lizard would defile them. Touching a corpse or eating unclean foods. He mentioned them in particular to the Colossians in the same way:

Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

Col 2:21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

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So back to the original question I asked, if you think to believe is a work, how would you understand the "but" in Romans 4:5?

PrettyboyAndy said:

I don't have an issue with that, that's more of an Arminian thought of salvation.

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Catholics don't do either Arminian or Calvinist. Neither are us. What can end up happening if you guys try to pigeon-hole us into your familiar categories is you misunderstand us. Of course the last 500 years has been a continual misunderstanding.

PrettyboyAndy said:

When I look at Romans 3, particularly 3:21-31, it looks like this is regarding Salvation/Faith, and how a person is justified by faith.

Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

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Look at what he is saying here:

24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

We are justified freely and absolved of all "sins committed beforehand". That is something that occurs when we enter into salvation. All previous sins are forgiven. That has nothing to with what happens afterwards.

The discussion we are having here is nothing new. In fact it is quite old. The same mistakes people read into Paul's teaching today were read into them long ago. So much so that the writer of 2 Peter addressed it way back then:

2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction...

James corrected them also in James 2 using the same examples of Abraham used by Paul.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Right I am just trying to understand the viewpoints, that all.

I guess with my Arminian/Calvinist lenses, all I see are those 2 camps.

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Way more than just those two camps. I can't get into it too deeply here because I don't have a lot of available time, but it's good for you to see that there are more than two camps. At issue too is that words we think we know the meaning of are used differently by others. Watch out for that.

My priest said that your inside must be ressurected, so you become good.