Adam's Flesh Could Not Be Saved

Davy said:

Your dream doesn't fit what God's Word shows. If sin had not... entered in, there would have been no Salvation through Jesus Christ,

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Of course-there'd be no need for salvation in that case. But while God foreknew the sin that would first occur in Eden, He certainly didn't set it up, having created everything good, which is the only way things could be, according to His very own nature. Instead, He deemed it worthy to create in any case, allowing while not causing evil to occur by the abuse of free will that Adam & Eve exercised. Historically the church has regarded this as a matter of God, knowing the beginning from the end, determining to bring an even greater good at the end of the day out of the evil that sin has caused, as only He knows how to do.

Davy said:

You asking me what Gnosticism is? That was an old 1st-2nd century tradition of those who tried to mix Christian doctrine with Neo-Platonism philosophy. What I'm covering is straight Bible, not Neo-Platonism.

The following you might call Gnosticism, simply because you don't appear to understand how the flesh is a different operation than the spirit.

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

In Matthew 10:28, Lord Jesus revealed that those who kill our flesh body cannot kill our soul, which reveals our soul continues to live. That is a direct association with that "spirit" above in Eccl.12:7. The Jews believe that "spirit" is just a force that animates all living things, but by Matt.10:28 it reveals the soul attached to it. This is also shown by Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, and by Lord Jesus again when He told the malefactor crucified with Him, the he would be with Him in Paradise that day, and also again by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 of what type of body the resurrection is, and also by Lord Jesus in Matthew 22:30 about the resurrection being "as the angels of God in heaven".

So if you think all that is Gnosticism, then I suggest you study your Bible more instead of listening to doctrines of men.

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I ask the question because Gnostics believed in the ultimate good of the spiritual or non-material existence. Your theology is akin to theirs because it denies the ultimate purpose of the material world and makes all creation an exercise in futility. Why did God create the material world to begin with, if he was just going to destroy it, cast it aside and give us existence as pure phantoms?

Why do our physical actions then matter, so long as we keep our spirit pure? What is the relationship between the Spirit and flesh that certain fleshly actions impact our spiritual devotion? This is why Christianity has rejected your impulse historically (your view is not part of the historic mainstream of the Church).

Your theology makes nonsense of the incarnation, for what purpose did Christ come in flesh to save us if that flesh was bound for destruction? It would appear an act of theatrics rather than God actually condescending to our nature in love to show how our human nature is to be redeemed. That is, our flawed bodies will take on a new and greater existence.

I would at least ask you this. Why was the Church wrong for so long on this issue until you arrived with your interpretation?

Davy said:

I'm aware of the Gnostics, yes, I'm aware of how they thought flesh = evil.

But the difference in God's Word, per Paul, is that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God. That statement by Paul is like an anchor, a law that cannot be changed. Not that flesh is evil, but only that the flesh is for this present world, and not for the world to come.

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
KJV

So you do think our Lord Jesus was a Gnostic by saying the above??

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You keep repeating the same thing as if that's going to convince anyone.

Do I consider that a gnostic statement by our Lord? No.

Now can you answer my question? Why has the Church been so wrong on this matter for the last 2000 years until you arrived?

Davy said:

The verses you quote are only about their sin in disobeying God, and not the root cause of the sin.

What caused... Eve to be tempted by the fruit in the midst of the Garden? She said it was good for food, and pleasant to the eyes. That's regarding the lusts of the flesh.

1 John 2:16
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
KJV

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Point is, Scripture does not say that the flesh was created sinful as I understand you to have stated in your OP. It was the first transgression which gave birth to sin which Romans makes clear ...as well as the Genesis account.

Davy said:

Not Satan's one and only work. See Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14, which are parables contrasting flesh kings to Satan claiming he will sit in God's place and be like GOD. That was the true original sin in the world prior to this one, when Satan drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him, as his original job was the "anointed cherub that covereth", guarding God's Throne. Satan coveted God's Throne for himself. That is why he is coming to play Christ at the end of this world in Jerusalem for the end.

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It's still deception.

1an said:

Will the resurrected body be flesh and blood? (1 Corinthians 15:50) Shall we eat, drink and defecate? Or will our mortal bodies be transformed (Philippians 3:21) and raised a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:42–44)
.

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Paul's use of "flesh and blood" refers to the present state of the body as mortal and perishable. Our Lord after He rose from the dead ate fish (Luke 24:42-43) and very explicitly told His disciples that He was solid flesh when He said, "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." (Luke 24:39).

Yes, it is transformed, and made alive by the Spirit--a "spiritual" body--Romans 8:11, Philippians 3:21, etc.

Some use the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:50 to insist that Christ did not have blood after He rose, but this isn't what Scripture says; and in fact our Lord tells us very plainly when He insituted the Eucharist that the bread and wine are His own flesh and blood,

"And as they were eating, He took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, 'Take, this is My body.' And He took a cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them and they all drank of it. And He said to them, 'This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.'" (Mark 14:22-24)

So the answer to your questions are yes. I don't know about eating, drinking, or waste disposal (I'm fairly doubtful of the latter); but is the resurrection bodily? Without a doubt yes. That's what resurrection is, the rising and transformation of the body, the mortal putting on immortality, the perishable becoming imperishable. We have borne the image of Adam who is fallen, sinful, mortal; we shall be raised in the image of the second Adam, Christ, with flesh like His glorious flesh.

-CryptoLutheran

Davy said:

Those Greek semantics don't work, because the KJV translators made it simple enough what 'kind'... of body Paul was speaking of...

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The Greek for "natural" is referring to a carnal type, and the Greek for "spiritual" is referring to a non-carnal type body. It's simple.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Greek for "spirit" refers to same idea used in other NT Scripture about God's Spirit, man's spirit, and even an evil spirit. It's simply about the manifested image type of that other dimension of the heavenly. The soul we know is attached with it, because of Matthew 10:28.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

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The translators of the KJV believed in the resurrection of the body. So I don't know what kind of game you are trying to pull here.

-CryptoLutheran

Davy said:

That just shows the confusion watching too many Hollywood movies have brethren in.

Lord Jesus' flesh body was 'transfigured' to the Heavenly type body. He is not in a flesh body today sitting on the right hand of The Father. His Heavenly body retained the marks of His crucifixion, but it is no longer one of flesh. There is no flesh in Heaven. For what you're saying to be true, flesh and blood would have to be allowed in Heaven.

This is why Apostle Paul told us that the body of the resurrection is of the heavenly, the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians 15:49, and that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

But nor is the "spiritual body" a ghost either. That's where Hollywood has many deceived, because in Hebrews 13:2 we are told to be mindful to entertain strangers, because some have entertained angels unaware. That's not evidence of a ghost. The spiritual body is just another body we all have, but it's of that other dimension. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 and Matthew 10:28 reveals this, so this is Bible 101, not Hollywood.

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Your use of "transfigured" is not Biblical.

"Flesh and blood" in Paul's usage does not mean human tissue, it means the physical natural body--corruptible, weak, sinful (1Co 5:42-44), the unregenerate state of man (Ro 7:5, 8:8, 9). That's the "flesh and blood" which cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

1an said:

Show me where. I dare you.

If you mean Lazarus and others, they were brought back to mortal life on earth, like Jesus at the resurrection, but then He was transformed into immortality and ascended into heaven. This is what we are talking about. Immortal life, in heaven, which is our final resting place.

Even the earth will pass away in time, but not the immortal.
.

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The earth shall one day be filled with the knowledge of the glory of God as the waters cover the seas (Habakkuk 2:14), we look forward to the renewal of all creation, a new heavens and a new earth.

Our eternal home isn't some ethereal place called "heaven", it's right here on terra firma. All of creation shall be healed and renewed, that's what new heavens and new earth mean.

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and works that are done on it will be exposed.

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to His promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." - 2 Peter 3:10-13

"'For behold! I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness. I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress. No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of My people be, and My chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,' says the LORD." - Isaiah 65:17-25

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience." - Romans 8:18-25

-CryptoLutheran