In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching
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PloverWing
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So, conversion therapy is still going on? I live in a bubble, I know, but I thought that with the closure of Exodus International, even the Evangelicals had moved away from conversion therapy, focusing instead on celibacy. Who is still practicing conversion therapy? Is it licensed therapists, or clergy/lay leaders in churches, or parachurch groups? How common is it?
I'm glad you were there for this person. May I ask, what drew him to seek out a priest? I would think that a person who had been through conversion therapy would never want to see the inside of a church again.
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- Jul 12, 2016
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I suspect one of the reasons why the LGBTI community is so suspect of the Church is that we have, in the main for a long time had loud voices that have, devalued, and indeed at times demonised these members of our community. I believe we fail in our purpose and our mission when we devalue people made in the image and after the likeness of God, and in so doing we devalue our own humanity, and we bring dishonour to the Gospel and to God.
The most remarkable thing is that despite all this we have members of our Churches who are LGBTI and they sit quietly in our pews, the sing songs of praise to God, they hear his holy word, and they feast at a table set in this world and the next.
What draws them there is certainly not the buoyant charity they find expressed in threads like this, but rather the person of Jesus, who says to them just as surely as he says to us, Come to Me, lay your burden on me, or my yoke is easy.
Let your light so shine before all, that they may see your good works, and give glory to your Father in Heaven.
The most remarkable thing is that despite all this we have members of our Churches who are LGBTI and they sit quietly in our pews, the sing songs of praise to God, they hear his holy word, and they feast at a table set in this world and the next.
What draws them there is certainly not the buoyant charity they find expressed in threads like this, but rather the person of Jesus, who says to them just as surely as he says to us, Come to Me, lay your burden on me, or my yoke is easy.
Let your light so shine before all, that they may see your good works, and give glory to your Father in Heaven.
Note: I speak as a person with skin in the game. My sister is married to a woman (seven years so far), though she had spent many years trying to be straight. Her acknowledgment of her reality has enabled her to grow as a person, and the love she shows for her wife and for others, and her contribution to the community in which they both live has overflowed. Many Western Christians are conscious of members or their families who don't fit to 'standard mould', and many of us have had to reconfigure our understanding as a result.
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SilverBear
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is ignoring the fact that none of the 23 individuals that managed to finish the study were not homosexual in the first place a feeling or a behavior on your part?
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SilverBear
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are we talking about when he lied about never having been molested or when he lied about playing Rugby in school?
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SilverBear
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And good news from Australia. The Victorian parliament voted to ban conversion therapy
Vic parliament bans conversion therapy
Vic parliament bans conversion therapy
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This appears to be the final text: https://content.legislation.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/591143bab1.pdf. What it prohibits is treatment directed to a person, so it doesn't seem to include preaching. It is also limited to attempts to change or suppress sexual orientation or identity. This definition seems narrower than the draft I remember reading.
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- Apr 25, 2016
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Oh yes, it's still going on. Not so much the very extreme stuff in organised settings, but there are plenty of fringe elements who will do all sorts of dodgy things in an attempt to "make" someone straight or cis-gendered.
The person I was talking to yesterday was describing attempts to change his sexuality through deliverance ministry (which were not at all successful) and the damage that did him. I think I can share this much of his story; in an attempt to be a "good Christian," the sort of person he was supposed to be, he stayed within a deeply abusive marriage, believing that what was happening was his fault and if only he could fix himself the abuse wouldn't happen. He described his desperation to make that happen; in his words, "If they'd told me to lick the floor, I would have licked the floor." Instead they told him much more degrading things and he believed and acted on them to his own detriment.
And this is what we want to keep doing to people?
@Philip_B is right. There are many such people quietly occupying our pews and participating in our parishes. I've found that some of them find me a safe person to talk to.
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No, I believe it went through unamended. Those limitations were always in the bill (and I pointed them out upthread).
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PloverWing
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@Paidiske , I am so sorry that happened to him. I'm glad that your church is a safe place for him and people like him, and that you were there for him in his pain.
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ken777
"to live is Christ, and to die is gain"
Sadly that is a typical response from people who cannot see both sides of the situation, who cannot accept that some people choose to suppress their feelings of same sex attraction so they can serve God according to their faith. Making illegal the sort of help (ie personal prayer & conversation) that they want and need will increase their anxiety, depression & suicide. Trying to help one group while causing suffering to another group is not the right solution.
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SilverBear
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They choose willingly or is that choice the result of years of abuse, hate and condemnation?
The years of abuse hate and condemnation are the cause of the anxiety, depression and suicidal idealization not the orientation. Study after study confirms that conversion therapy makes mental health issues worse.
Amy Przeworski, Emily Peterson, Alexandra Piedra. A systematic review of the efficacy, harmful effects, and ethical issues related to sexual orientation change efforts. Clinical Psychology: Science and Practice 2020.
Steven Meanley, et al Lifetime Exposure to Conversion Therapy and Psychosocial Health Among Midlife and Older Adult Men Who Have Sex With Men. The Gerontologist 2020
Douglas C. Haldeman Therapeutic Antidotes: Helping Gay and Bisexual Men Recover from Conversion Therapies J of Psychotherapy 2008
Madison Higbee, Eric R. Wright, Ryan M. Roemerman. Conversion Therapy in the Southern United States: Prevalence and Experiences of the Survivors. Journal of Homosexuality 2020
and it's not hard to understand why. Conversion therapy is based on the premise that the individual is sick and morally corrupt. It fosters self hatred and is itself abusive.
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ken777
"to live is Christ, and to die is gain"
You express such disdain towards those who willingly choose to suppress their feelings of same sex attraction because they believe that is what the Bible teaches them. This disdain is contributing to the anxiety, depression & suicide among this group. Until you recognize there are two different groups, each with their own needs, you will continue to cause great harm by disparaging their genuinely held personal beliefs & goals by dismissing them as only the result of "abuse, hate and condemnation".
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SilverBear
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not disdain, sympathy and pity. these people have suffered years of abuse at the hands of people who claimed to love them.
What do you think happens when "therapy" reinforces that abuse?
Can you guess what happens when therapy addresses that long history of abuse instead?
The research speaks for itself about in regards to these questions.
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His remark didn't engage with your arguments.
There is at best concern about what might be the unintended consequences of this bill - that is coming from quarters outside the church - which is significant - it is thought there could be a chill factor for LGB people associated with it. It is also unclear where it would leave anyone who wishes to detransition. Could an individual persuing a 'sex change' be left stuck at some point in transition if they change their minds (which does sometimes happen)?
I think a ban on required therapy or the use of aversion therapies would have been more circumspect, - and leave it open for adults to make properly informed free choices.
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There is a sort of casuistry being employed at times to argue for the ban. To cite an individual case or two of bad experiences with some and argue from that seems rather casuistic. Could the same be said for citing examples of people who have benefited? Only if the same sort of therapy is being talked about and it isn't because all the examples being used to argue for the ban are not to do with a form of talk therapy, but with such things as aversion therapy which is entirely different in its whole approach. I suspect it rooted in people defending one sort of therapy and other arguing about the dangers of particular techniques. The confusion comes from labeling them all as forms of conversion therapy. If I was arguing every male or female homosexual should be required undertake some form of conversion therapy, and argued this on the grounds that some people have benefited such an argument could be casuistic, but I am not and others expressing opposition to this ban are not arguing for that - we are arguing for the right of adults to make free and properly informed choices. Your government it seems is acting to some extent in response to disinformation, and emotional appeals.
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That is not true. There are certainly forms of "talk therapy" which have been shown to contribute to harmful outcomes (and not shown to be at all effective in changing someone's sexuality or gender identity).
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