Justification?

Clare73

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Don’t you have to choose (volition) to believe and never stop believing?

Luther demanded a council of the church to decide on justification
It did at Trent
Condemned all his errors and says justification is by faith and baptism Mk 16:16
Baptism is the sign of entrance into the New Covenant--joining fellowship with the people of God, as circumcision was the sign of entrance into the Abrahamic Covenant--joining fellowship with the people of God. Neither require saving faith and, therefore, do not save.

But there is much temporal benefit in being in fellowship with the people of God.
It is the sign to the ministering spirits (Heb 1:14), the angels (1Co 1:10; Eph 3:10; 1Tim 5:1) that one is in the New Covenant people of God.
 
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Clare73

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Baptismal regeneration
New creation

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
The Holy Spirit baptizes none who are not of true faith, no matter who nor how many are sprinkled or dunked.

Gal 3:26 - You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you (sons of God) who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Sprinkling and dunking do not make you a son of God, only true faith does, and
it is only the sons of God who are actually baptized into Christ and have clothed themselves with Christ here,
no matter who nor how many have been sprinkled or dunked.
 
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Clare73

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Look at one of the verses you quoted:

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip puts the require for baptism on the person being baptized and not some family member believing.
To be baptized requires the individual to have faith, so the faith has to come first.

Baptism is a definite sign of the believer’s commitment.

Again, as I pointed out in post 2: there is nothing said in the Old Testament about anyone being able to stand before God “Justified”,
Ge 15:6?
although I do feel some could stand before God justified. Paull emphasis especially to those of Jewish decent that we (Christians) could be justified before God and really in contrast to those under the Law.

The only individuals prior to the cross, who we know about that would be justified before God were those like the Tax collector
In the OT those who believed in the Promise (seed, Jesus Christ--Ge1 5:5) were justified.
in the Luke 18 parable, but I would say the tax collect was not even trying to obtain God’s forgiveness by the Law, but relying on God’s huge Love to forgive him (really outside of the Law). That Tax Collector, knew he was a bigtime sinner unworthy of anything from God, so he prostrates himself before God (the position he realized he should be before God). If we are in his position, we should do the same, but as Christians we are to act like children with our Father and huge our Father’s leg. To do that we have to feel and know we stand justified before God, but how can we feel that way, if we have not experienced and accepted severe Loving disciplining by our father for our rebellious disobedience. Correctly going through severe Loving discipline with our Father going through it with us, will allow us to develop that closer relationship, feel the punishment is behind us, know the Father does really Love us, and feel comfortable around the Father (knowing we are justified).
Paul's take on justification is somewhat different.
 
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Ephfourfive

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But it is the new covenant?
Faith alone cannot be the initiation into the covenant
There must be an outward sign


The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

An oath to sacramental life

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

God provides for everything:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He is the way we must follow!
He is the truth we must believe!
He is the life, life of grace thru the sacraments of the church in which we must live!

Abide in Christ and His church with grace and life provided by God thru the sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 
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Ephfourfive

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More scripture

Old Testament pre-figures of baptism.

Psalm 36:9
For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

Song of Solomon 4:15
A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.

Isaiah 41:18
I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.

OT pre-figured baptism

Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations;

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

New Testament

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

( Disciples by baptism not faith alone)

Mk 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 16:16
he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

Jn 1: 11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Baptism)

John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip preached Jesus and the result is justification by baptism!

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Gal 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: see Ez 36

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
 
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Ephfourfive

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1 cor 13:2 all faith? No charity avails nothing
End of 13 the greatest is not faith or “faith alone” but charity
Phil 1:29 not called to faith alone

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
 
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Ephfourfive

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The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises
 
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Clare73

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But it is the new covenant?
Faith alone cannot be the initiation into the covenant
There must be an outward sign
The outward sign of joining fellowship with the NT people of God is baptism.

And this fellowship is not without temporal benefit.
It is a sign to the ministering spirits (Heb 1:14), the angels (1Co 11:10; Eph 3:10; 1Tim 5:1), that one is in the New Covenant people of God.

Some who are sprinkled or dunked are actually sons of God by faith, some are not. The Holy Spirit baptizes only those of true faith when they are sprinkled or dunked, he does not baptize all who are sprinkled or dunked. . .depends on their hearts.
The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

An oath to sacramental life

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

God provides for everything:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He is the way we must follow!
He is the truth we must believe!
He is the life, life of grace thru the sacraments of the church in which we must live!

Abide in Christ and His church with grace and life provided by God thru the sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 
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Ephfourfive

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The outward sign of joining fellowship with the NT people of God is baptism.

And this fellowship is not without temporal benefit.

Some who are sprinkled or dunked are actually sons of God by faith, some are not. The Holy Spirit baptizes only those of true faith when they are sprinkled or dunked, he does not baptize all who are sprinkled or dunked. . .depends on their hearts.

So baptism does not wash away sin?
 
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Clare73

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So baptism does not wash away sin?
It does for those of true faith, the sons of God, it does not for those of counterfeit faith who are not the sons of God.
The Holy Spirit knows the difference in the heart, knows who and who are not the sons of God in their hearts, and washes away the sins only of the sons of God.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Any scripture for justification by “faith alone”?

“If I speak with the tongues of mankind and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
 
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Danthemailman

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1 cor 13:2 all faith? No charity avails nothing
End of 13 the greatest is not faith or “faith alone” but charity
In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul is stressing that love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" are now seen (Hebrews 11:1) once we are in the presence of the Lord and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because He has appeared and believers will be with Him forever, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity. So Paul is not teaching that we are saved by faith "plus acts of charity/works." All genuine believers love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13) We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

Phil 1:29 not called to faith alone
This verse simply says it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf. This does not negate Romans 5:1 which clearly states that man is justified by faith and not faith + suffering. Ephesians 2:8,9 says saved by grace through faith, not works, and not faith + suffering.

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8.9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) Now which tense is Paul talking about in Romans 13:11?
 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day,

Justification is declared about someone... on the basis of Faith.

YLT: Gal 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

In Him

Bill
 
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Butterball1

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For Paul, there are only two considerations:

1) faith + works, and
2) faith without works, which is "faith alone."

James 2:24-----------------works (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Romans 6:17-18-----------obey from the heat (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>>justifes(frees from sin)

James & Paul are in 100% agreement that a faith that includes works (obedience) justifies and "faith without works" is dead being alone.

Paul NEVER excluded obedience from becoming saved else he contradicts himself in Romans 6:16-18. In Romans 3 & 4 Paul excluded the work of strict, flawless, perfect law keeping the OT law of Moses required to be justified but never excluded a simple faithful obedience. Abraham and David both sinned therefore could not be justified by the law of Moses but were justified by a simple faithful obedience.

A person is either obeying God's will or disobeying God's will, not middle ground or third option. THose who are disobeying are lost and continue to be lost unless, until they first obey God THEN they can be saved. God does not randomly, unconditionally save people living in disobedience then after they are saved in disobedience they can obey. Paul spoke of "obedience unto righteousness" not "obedience because one already is righteous", Romans 6:16....doing unrighteousness can never lead one to being righteous.
 
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BBAS 64

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Eph 2 refers to redemption not salvation
What about the necessity of the church and the sacraments?

Good Day

That just begs the question where does the Bible state they are necessary?

Now I do know that the Roman Church for the sakes of their members asserts such necessity. There are 2 issues with that assertion I am not a member of their denomination, and 2 they are sorely mistaken in their baseless assertion.

In Him

Bill
 
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Clare73

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James 2:24-----------------works (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Romans 6:17-18-----------obey from the heat (obey God's will)>>>>>>>>>justifes(frees from sin)

James & Paul are in 100% agreement that a faith that includes works (obedience) justifies and "faith without works" is dead being alone.
We are in agreement.

Paul does not teach that a faith which includes works is not justification/righteousness.

Paul teaches that it is not the works of that faith which justify, it is only the faith which is justification/righteousness.

We are agreed that Paul teaches the obedience of sanctification/righteousness involves works.
Paul NEVER excluded obedience from becoming saved else he contradicts himself in Romans 6:16-18. In Romans 3 & 4 Paul excluded the work of strict, flawless, perfect law keeping the OT law of Moses required to be justified but never excluded a simple faithful obedience. Abraham and David both sinned therefore could not be justified by the law of Moses but were justified by a simple faithful obedience.

A person is either obeying God's will or disobeying God's will, not middle ground or third option. THose who are disobeying are lost and continue to be lost unless, until they first obey God THEN they can be saved. God does not randomly, unconditionally save people living in disobedience then after they are saved in disobedience they can obey. Paul spoke of "obedience unto righteousness" not "obedience because one already is righteous", Romans 6:16....doing unrighteousness can never lead one to being righteous.
 
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