Your best copy isn't what God wants.

RDKirk

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I had a conversation with a young man a few weeks ago about what he meant by "love God." He gave the usual answer Christians are trained to give: obedience. That's love. I pointed out that it's possible to be very obedient without being loving. The Pharisees, for example, were professionally "obedient," keeping the law extremely carefully, and honoring God with their lips, but Jesus said of them that their hearts were far from God (Matthew 15:1-9). I suggested to the young man that obedience and love were not exactly the same thing, but that the latter gives rise to the former and could be distinguished from it. Jesus makes this point to his disciples in John 14:

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


Here, Jesus predicated the keeping of his commands by his disciples upon the fact that they loved him. This suggests that love is not mere obedience, doing good deeds, but is something else that produces these things. My question to the young man was, "So, what is this 'love' that is reflected in our obedience to God?" He couldn't tell me. He had always thought that love was just doing what God said.

I would argue that Jesus considered the Pharisees to be hypocrites because they did not obey the commandments. Their obedience was not as perfect as they pretended.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. -- Matthew 23
 
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mlepfitjw

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Read what you said. It is about faith expressing itself through love. It means to Love God with all your heart, (all of your heart), all of your mind (not to set the love on the world but God), all your strength (yearning, desiring to know him more and more), all of your soul (all of your being which is helped by the holy spirit).

To also in turn, love others as yourself, with the expression of Love that you have towards God. Which allows, joy, peace, forbearance, longsuffering, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness towards God, and towards others that produces love.
 
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aiki

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"For New Christians forum is a place for New Christians to ask questions and get answers, encouragement, and support from other Christian members." So the intent of this subforum is not a place to direct posts at new Christians to discuss among themselves, but a place where veteran Christians can help new Christians.

I am a veteran believer. I serve as an Elder/teaching pastor at my church. I have been discipling men for over thirty years. My posts are, then, offered with a view to supporting new believers and aiding them in their spiritual growth. I am not expecting them to read my OP and then just chat among themselves about it. Not sure where you got that idea from my posts...

Your analogy spoke about salvation as being a specific point where God did surgery and that spoke about how we are to live as a result of what God did, but that is still part of our ongoing salvation. And you spoke against copying Christ, but that is what we are supposed to do.

In the way we are saved, we also walk with God. We depend entirely upon God for our salvation and we continue to depend entirely upon Him for our spiritual transformation. That was the point of my writing about what I did in my OP.

I have cited many passages/verses now that make it very clear that God changes us, we don't change ourselves. This was the case when we were saved and it remains the case as we live as born-again children of God. It isn't, then, that we are trying to make copies of Christ out of ourselves but that God fills us with Himself, and transforms us into His image by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit within us.

While I agree that it is God who changes us, it nevertheless still involves our active participation. God is perfectly capable of giving instructions that teach us how to do the real thing.

I explained in what ways God outlines our participation in His work in us: receive, remain and reflect. We don't manufacture, maintain, and mold the life of Christ within ourselves. We can only produce more of ourselves; only God can beget godliness in us.

2 Corinthians 3:18
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
 
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aiki

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Active participation comes from the will. To be willing one must place themselves in the position to lean on God’s understanding and not our own.

Thanks for actually answering the question at the end of my OP!

What do you think of these verses in relation to your response above?

Philippians 2:12-13
12 ...work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


2 Corinthians 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Human reasoning can build a structure but it falls short on reasoning God’s intent.

Hmmm...are you saying, then, that we can't know God's intent, or will?
 
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1watchman

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You've maybe heard the question, "What would Jesus do?" You can buy bracelets, t-shirts, bumperstickers and baseball caps with this question, in acronym form, on them (WWJD). The idea is that you figure out what Jesus would do and then you do that. Simple, right? That's the key to Christian living: Just copy Jesus. You'll never go wrong, if you do.

If you've lived for very long at all as a Christian - especially as one who is keen to live God's way - you'll have figured out that things in the Christian life aren't quite this simple. And if you've had a chance to really mature spiritually, you'll know that God doesn't want your best copy of what He has called you to as His child at all.

An important underlying assumption of the WWJD question is that the Christian life is, in essence, mimicry. But is this really what the Bible indicates? Is the Christian called by God merely to do his best, manufacturing a human copy of Christlikeness? Is God really satisfied with, or even the slightest bit interested in, how good a version of the life in Christ we can produce? The answer is "NO."

It might help in understanding what I'm getting at to think about what was necessary to making you a born-again child of God. What, exactly, did you do to deal with the curse and stain of sin that was upon you? How did you get rid of the burden of your sin that put you under God's holy judgment and wrath? Yes, you responded to the conviction and illumination of the Holy Spirit as you heard the truth of the Gospel that is the "power of God unto salvation," you humbled yourself under that truth, repenting of your godless living, confessing your sin and rebellion to God, and trusting in Christ as your Saviour and Lord. But, if Jesus had not died on the cross for your sins, if he had not paid the price God's holy justice required in payment for your sin, and if the Spirit had not acted to spiritually regenerate you, what use would your repentance, confession and belief have been? In fact, if Jesus had not done these things, you'd have no Gospel to which to respond and no salvation to receive.

On this head, I wrote the following for a discipleship course I teach at my church:

"It would seem the believer has very little to do in the process of being transformed by God. Mostly, the believer is receiving, remaining in and then reflecting the work of God in his life. He is like a man with a brain tumor who must receive the work of the brain surgeon to remove his tumor. The man cannot remove his own tumor; he can do nothing to aid the surgeon in extracting the tumor. The man just lies upon the operating table and waits on the surgeon to do what only the surgeon can do.

The man has first had to accept the diagnosis of a brain tumor, though, and agree to the surgery to remove it, trusting that the brain surgeon can perform the surgery well. Is the sick man not contributing, then, to his healing? Well, he is certainly making it possible for healing to occur. The actual removal of his tumor, however, is solely the work of the surgeon to accomplish. No degree of awareness of the tumor, or willingness to see it removed, or trust in the surgeon to remove it, does anything to free the man of his tumor. Only the surgeon, entirely apart from any direct, contributing effort of his patient, can extract the deadly mass from the patient’s brain. Again, in order to be free of his tumor, all the sick man can do is receive the healing work of the surgeon.

When the surgery is complete and the man is freed from the tumor and its fatal effects, he does not go about behaving as though he still has a brain tumor. The headaches, the nose bleeds, the vision loss, the cognitive impairment – these are all gone and it shows unavoidably in the living of the healed man. He does not pretend he is healed; he does not force himself to live free of the symptoms of his tumor; in a very natural, inevitable way, he reveals in his living the reality of his healed state.

In the same way, the man who has been freed of the “tumor” of sin by the Great Physician, cannot help but manifest this in his living. He does not need to act as though he is healed; he is healed and it will show unavoidably and inevitably in his life."

This is the very sort of circumstance under which a person is "saved," born-again into the family and kingdom of God. The lost man cannot save himself, he cannot be free of the "tumor" of sin, except the Great Physician removes it from him. Yes, the lost man must come to God for salvation, he must believe the diagnosis of the Gospel and its offered remedy and trust himself to the saving work of Christ, but, in the end, he can only receive the "spiritual surgery" necessary to save him from his sin, unable to add anything whatever to the work of the removal of his "sin-tumor."

In the same way, the saved person moves forward with God into the Christian life. The Christian isn't called by God to pretend he is saved, to merely act like Christ, to produce his best version or copy of a Christlike life anymore than the man healed of a fatal, cancerous tumor must act like he is, or pretend to be a healed man, or to create his best version of a tumor-free person.

Instead, in Scripture, God takes to Himself the responsibility for producing godliness in us:

1 Corinthians 1:7-9
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.


Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


Colossians 2:19
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Romans 8:11-13
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


1 Peter 5:10
10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself confirm, strengthen and establish you.


It is the Christian's "job," if you like, to receive the work of God in himself. Not produce it, not make up his best copy of the work of God, but simply to receive it.

The question, then, that the Christian should ask himself, isn't "What would Jesus do?" but, rather, "Am in a position to receive the work of God in my life?"

The best answer, as I suppose you also know, is simply embrace 'Bible-only' ---reading and praying over such as John 14; etc.; and taking "all the counsel of God" and "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as God says. Innovations and reasoning of man is the major trick of Satan to direct us into self-confidence, I see. This practice by some professing Christians of 'cherry picking' verses is the cause of much confusion, I see. Keep looking up, brother!
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Thanks for actually answering the question at the end of my OP!

What do you think of these verses in relation to your response above?

Philippians 2:12-13
12 ...work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


2 Corinthians 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
First one must be willing to work with God. If instead human understanding is the length anyone is willing to participate in their salvation, then I fear they are just building on sand. There is no beholding the glory of the Lord in that.

Hmmm...are you saying, then, that we can't know God's intent, or will?
~Cassia~ said:
Human reasoning can build a structure but it falls short on reasoning God’s intent.

The will of God being God's sovereign governance must be met with the will of each and everyone or institution that professes His Name to fulfill the commission of being sent in the first place. That doesn’t happen when God is willing but humans are not.

The content of 1 Samuel can easily confirm that.

Edit to add : from your original question and how that pertains "Am in a position to receive the work of God in my life?”

The books of Samuel contain the central thought of fulfilling God's economical plan thru human co-operation. From them we can see how we can and should enjoy Christ as our portion, that being right with God is a condition of that relationship. It also shows the negative side of non co-operation with God in the history outlined in the lives of Eli and Saul.

Consider also Hannah’s desires being met with God’s desire to bring about the ‘anointed’ 1 Samuel 2:10 (Hannah’s prayer) and God’s response 1 Samuel 2:35.

When Jesus’ human will aligned with His Father’s it was one. So therefore He always chose God’s will and didn’t move until He did. As Peter also declared elsewhere that the oracles known are what constitutes walking with God, and not human will.

Philippians 2:6-10

Though He was God,

He did not think of equality with God

as something to cling to.

Instead, He gave up His divine privileges;

He took the humble position of a slave


and was born as a human being.

When He appeared in human form,

He humbled himself in obedience to God

and died a criminal's death on a cross.

Therefore, God elevated Him to the place of highest honor

and gave Him the name above all other names,

that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth​
 
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Maria Billingsley

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You've maybe heard the question, "What would Jesus do?" You can buy bracelets, t-shirts, bumperstickers and baseball caps with this question, in acronym form, on them (WWJD). The idea is that you figure out what Jesus would do and then you do that. Simple, right? That's the key to Christian living: Just copy Jesus. You'll never go wrong, if you do.

If you've lived for very long at all as a Christian - especially as one who is keen to live God's way - you'll have figured out that things in the Christian life aren't quite this simple. And if you've had a chance to really mature spiritually, you'll know that God doesn't want your best copy of what He has called you to as His child at all.

An important underlying assumption of the WWJD question is that the Christian life is, in essence, mimicry. But is this really what the Bible indicates? Is the Christian called by God merely to do his best, manufacturing a human copy of Christlikeness? Is God really satisfied with, or even the slightest bit interested in, how good a version of the life in Christ we can produce? The answer is "NO."

It might help in understanding what I'm getting at to think about what was necessary to making you a born-again child of God. What, exactly, did you do to deal with the curse and stain of sin that was upon you? How did you get rid of the burden of your sin that put you under God's holy judgment and wrath? Yes, you responded to the conviction and illumination of the Holy Spirit as you heard the truth of the Gospel that is the "power of God unto salvation," you humbled yourself under that truth, repenting of your godless living, confessing your sin and rebellion to God, and trusting in Christ as your Saviour and Lord. But, if Jesus had not died on the cross for your sins, if he had not paid the price God's holy justice required in payment for your sin, and if the Spirit had not acted to spiritually regenerate you, what use would your repentance, confession and belief have been? In fact, if Jesus had not done these things, you'd have no Gospel to which to respond and no salvation to receive.

On this head, I wrote the following for a discipleship course I teach at my church:

"It would seem the believer has very little to do in the process of being transformed by God. Mostly, the believer is receiving, remaining in and then reflecting the work of God in his life. He is like a man with a brain tumor who must receive the work of the brain surgeon to remove his tumor. The man cannot remove his own tumor; he can do nothing to aid the surgeon in extracting the tumor. The man just lies upon the operating table and waits on the surgeon to do what only the surgeon can do.

The man has first had to accept the diagnosis of a brain tumor, though, and agree to the surgery to remove it, trusting that the brain surgeon can perform the surgery well. Is the sick man not contributing, then, to his healing? Well, he is certainly making it possible for healing to occur. The actual removal of his tumor, however, is solely the work of the surgeon to accomplish. No degree of awareness of the tumor, or willingness to see it removed, or trust in the surgeon to remove it, does anything to free the man of his tumor. Only the surgeon, entirely apart from any direct, contributing effort of his patient, can extract the deadly mass from the patient’s brain. Again, in order to be free of his tumor, all the sick man can do is receive the healing work of the surgeon.

When the surgery is complete and the man is freed from the tumor and its fatal effects, he does not go about behaving as though he still has a brain tumor. The headaches, the nose bleeds, the vision loss, the cognitive impairment – these are all gone and it shows unavoidably in the living of the healed man. He does not pretend he is healed; he does not force himself to live free of the symptoms of his tumor; in a very natural, inevitable way, he reveals in his living the reality of his healed state.

In the same way, the man who has been freed of the “tumor” of sin by the Great Physician, cannot help but manifest this in his living. He does not need to act as though he is healed; he is healed and it will show unavoidably and inevitably in his life."

This is the very sort of circumstance under which a person is "saved," born-again into the family and kingdom of God. The lost man cannot save himself, he cannot be free of the "tumor" of sin, except the Great Physician removes it from him. Yes, the lost man must come to God for salvation, he must believe the diagnosis of the Gospel and its offered remedy and trust himself to the saving work of Christ, but, in the end, he can only receive the "spiritual surgery" necessary to save him from his sin, unable to add anything whatever to the work of the removal of his "sin-tumor."

In the same way, the saved person moves forward with God into the Christian life. The Christian isn't called by God to pretend he is saved, to merely act like Christ, to produce his best version or copy of a Christlike life anymore than the man healed of a fatal, cancerous tumor must act like he is, or pretend to be a healed man, or to create his best version of a tumor-free person.

Instead, in Scripture, God takes to Himself the responsibility for producing godliness in us:

1 Corinthians 1:7-9
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.


Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


Colossians 2:19
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Romans 8:11-13
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


1 Peter 5:10
10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself confirm, strengthen and establish you.


It is the Christian's "job," if you like, to receive the work of God in himself. Not produce it, not make up his best copy of the work of God, but simply to receive it.

The question, then, that the Christian should ask himself, isn't "What would Jesus do?" but, rather, "Am in a position to receive the work of God in my life?"
You are making something so simple complicated IMO. I will stick to "what would Jesus do" as He is my guild through the power of the Holy Spirit. I am not in a job with my Lord, I am in a relationship.
Be blessed.
 
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Religiot

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You've maybe heard the question, "What would Jesus do?" You can buy bracelets, t-shirts, bumperstickers and baseball caps with this question, in acronym form, on them (WWJD). The idea is that you figure out what Jesus would do and then you do that. Simple, right? That's the key to Christian living: Just copy Jesus. You'll never go wrong, if you do.

If you've lived for very long at all as a Christian - especially as one who is keen to live God's way - you'll have figured out that things in the Christian life aren't quite this simple. And if you've had a chance to really mature spiritually, you'll know that God doesn't want your best copy of what He has called you to as His child at all.

An important underlying assumption of the WWJD question is that the Christian life is, in essence, mimicry. But is this really what the Bible indicates? Is the Christian called by God merely to do his best, manufacturing a human copy of Christlikeness? Is God really satisfied with, or even the slightest bit interested in, how good a version of the life in Christ we can produce? The answer is "NO."

It might help in understanding what I'm getting at to think about what was necessary to making you a born-again child of God. What, exactly, did you do to deal with the curse and stain of sin that was upon you? How did you get rid of the burden of your sin that put you under God's holy judgment and wrath? Yes, you responded to the conviction and illumination of the Holy Spirit as you heard the truth of the Gospel that is the "power of God unto salvation," you humbled yourself under that truth, repenting of your godless living, confessing your sin and rebellion to God, and trusting in Christ as your Saviour and Lord. But, if Jesus had not died on the cross for your sins, if he had not paid the price God's holy justice required in payment for your sin, and if the Spirit had not acted to spiritually regenerate you, what use would your repentance, confession and belief have been? In fact, if Jesus had not done these things, you'd have no Gospel to which to respond and no salvation to receive.

On this head, I wrote the following for a discipleship course I teach at my church:

"It would seem the believer has very little to do in the process of being transformed by God. Mostly, the believer is receiving, remaining in and then reflecting the work of God in his life. He is like a man with a brain tumor who must receive the work of the brain surgeon to remove his tumor. The man cannot remove his own tumor; he can do nothing to aid the surgeon in extracting the tumor. The man just lies upon the operating table and waits on the surgeon to do what only the surgeon can do.

The man has first had to accept the diagnosis of a brain tumor, though, and agree to the surgery to remove it, trusting that the brain surgeon can perform the surgery well. Is the sick man not contributing, then, to his healing? Well, he is certainly making it possible for healing to occur. The actual removal of his tumor, however, is solely the work of the surgeon to accomplish. No degree of awareness of the tumor, or willingness to see it removed, or trust in the surgeon to remove it, does anything to free the man of his tumor. Only the surgeon, entirely apart from any direct, contributing effort of his patient, can extract the deadly mass from the patient’s brain. Again, in order to be free of his tumor, all the sick man can do is receive the healing work of the surgeon.

When the surgery is complete and the man is freed from the tumor and its fatal effects, he does not go about behaving as though he still has a brain tumor. The headaches, the nose bleeds, the vision loss, the cognitive impairment – these are all gone and it shows unavoidably in the living of the healed man. He does not pretend he is healed; he does not force himself to live free of the symptoms of his tumor; in a very natural, inevitable way, he reveals in his living the reality of his healed state.

In the same way, the man who has been freed of the “tumor” of sin by the Great Physician, cannot help but manifest this in his living. He does not need to act as though he is healed; he is healed and it will show unavoidably and inevitably in his life."

This is the very sort of circumstance under which a person is "saved," born-again into the family and kingdom of God. The lost man cannot save himself, he cannot be free of the "tumor" of sin, except the Great Physician removes it from him. Yes, the lost man must come to God for salvation, he must believe the diagnosis of the Gospel and its offered remedy and trust himself to the saving work of Christ, but, in the end, he can only receive the "spiritual surgery" necessary to save him from his sin, unable to add anything whatever to the work of the removal of his "sin-tumor."

In the same way, the saved person moves forward with God into the Christian life. The Christian isn't called by God to pretend he is saved, to merely act like Christ, to produce his best version or copy of a Christlike life anymore than the man healed of a fatal, cancerous tumor must act like he is, or pretend to be a healed man, or to create his best version of a tumor-free person.

Instead, in Scripture, God takes to Himself the responsibility for producing godliness in us:

1 Corinthians 1:7-9
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.


Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


Colossians 2:19
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Romans 8:11-13
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


1 Peter 5:10
10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself confirm, strengthen and establish you.


It is the Christian's "job," if you like, to receive the work of God in himself. Not produce it, not make up his best copy of the work of God, but simply to receive it.

The question, then, that the Christian should ask himself, isn't "What would Jesus do?" but, rather, "Am in a position to receive the work of God in my life?"
In direct contradiction to your premise:

"Be ye followers* of me, even as I also am of Christ." --1 Corinthians 11:1

*3402 mimetes mim-ay-tace' from 3401; an imitator:--follower. see GREEK for 3401
 
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zoidar

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I would argue that Jesus considered the Pharisees to be hypocrites because they did not obey the commandments. Their obedience was not as perfect as they pretended.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. -- Matthew 23

Didn't they also make up their own rules how to keep the Law, that in reality had nothing to do with the Law? Like how many steps you are allowed to take on a Sabbath and such.
 
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RDKirk

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Didn't they also make up their own rules how to keep the Law, that in reality had nothing to do with the Law? Like how many steps you are allowed to take on a Sabbath and such.

Those were supposed to be efforts to avoid coming close to breaking the law.

Similarly, some people will take the instruction "Do not be dissipated by too much wine" and turn it into "do not drink any alcohol at all."
 
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aiki

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You are making something so simple complicated IMO. I will stick to "what would Jesus do" as He is my guild through the power of the Holy Spirit. I am not in a job with my Lord, I am in a relationship.
Be blessed.

Does it seem complicated? It doesn't to me. In any case, whether it has this flavour of complexity or not, what I've shared is what Scripture indicates is the case and so it is vital to understand it, don't you think?

You can keep going as you are, working at mimicking Jesus, creating your clumsy, skewed human version of the divine. Or you can be filled with, and transformed by, God, living as a vessel in whom and through whom He communicates Himself, the real thing, not your mere copy of Him.

My Mom faced using a computer for the first time and declared, "Oh, it's all so complicated! I don't want to learn how to use this thing!" With no little encouragement and patience, she did learn and now wonders at her initial reluctance to use the computer. She's quick to sing the praises of email, and Zoom, and online shopping. With the computer, many things she once labored to do and had, at times, to wait weeks to accomplish she can do in mere moments. Though there was initially some complexity to assimilate in using the computer, she now finds its use simplifies certain tasks enormously and accelerates others wonderfully. She can't imagine having to return to the old, laborious way of doing the things she uses the computer to do now.

I wonder if your reaction to my OP isn't something like my Mom's reaction to learning to use the computer. It's a real shame to cut yourself off from all God offers to you in Himself because walking with Him as He says to seems to you "complicated."
 
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aiki

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In direct contradiction to your premise:

"Be ye followers* of me, even as I also am of Christ." --1 Corinthians 11:1

*3402 mimetes mim-ay-tace' from 3401; an imitator:--follower. see GREEK for 3401

Still looking to pick a fight, eh? Already addressed this in an earlier post in this thread.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Does it seem complicated? It doesn't to me. In any case, whether it has this flavour of complexity or not, what I've shared is what Scripture indicates is the case and so it is vital to understand it, don't you think?

You can keep going as you are, working at mimicking Jesus, creating your clumsy, skewed human version of the divine. Or you can be filled with, and transformed by, God, living as a vessel in whom and through whom He communicates Himself, the real thing, not your mere copy of Him.

My Mom faced using a computer for the first time and declared, "Oh, it's all so complicated! I don't want to learn how to use this thing!" With no little encouragement and patience, she did learn and now wonders at her initial reluctance to use the computer. She's quick to sing the praises of email, and Zoom, and online shopping. With the computer, many things she once labored to do and had, at times, to wait weeks to accomplish she can do in mere moments. Though there was initially some complexity to assimilate in using the computer, she now finds its use simplifies certain tasks enormously and accelerates others wonderfully. She can't imagine having to return to the old, laborious way of doing the things she uses the computer to do now.

I wonder if your reaction to my OP isn't something like my Mom's reaction to learning to use the computer. It's a real shame to cut yourself off from all God offers to you in Himself because walking with Him as He says to seems to you "complicated."
Thank you for engaging. Be blessed.
 
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Religiot

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Still looking to pick a fight, eh? Already addressed this in an earlier post in this thread.
Yes, yes indeed: I'm always looking to contend for the faith, and to admonish and exhort believers by the word of God; it's the very reason I go around covered in armor carrying a sword and shield...

--I just read your earlier post, and found it to be solely an effort to explain away the fundamental meaning of what Paul said.

The facts are, Paul was the example that the Corinthians had to behold, not Christ, but Paul; and unlike the Corinthians, Paul had actually seen the Lord, and was in constant contact with Him, and so he could, of course, actually imitate the Lord, and command others to follow his imitation. (Remember, they did not have the gospels as we do, nor the letters, but only Paul's example, and that particular letter, at that time.)

Paul was, and is, an example of someone who imitates Christ. Like Peter, and John, and James, etc., these all, are imitators of Christ, and were examples, primarily to the Jews, but Paul, primarily to the Gentiles, the Corinthians being a case in point.

This all goes, directly, to my earlier communications with you, concerning complications of the simplicity that is in Christ.

Complicated theologies are not of God, but man.

Please see that I'm not your enemy.
 
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aiki

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Yes, yes indeed: I'm always looking to contend for the faith, and to admonish and exhort believers by the word of God; it's the very reason I go around covered in armor carrying a sword and shield...

It's amazing how you've spiritualized a contentious spirit! Wow.

--I just read your earlier post, and found it to be solely an effort to explain away the fundamental meaning of what Paul said.

Well, of course you did. It's your self-appointed "job" on CF - apparently - to find fault with any view that doesn't perfectly align with your own.

The facts are, Paul was the example that the Corinthians had to behold, not Christ, but Paul; and unlike the Corinthians, Paul had actually seen the Lord, and was in constant contact with Him, and so he could, of course, actually imitate the Lord, and command others to follow his imitation. (Remember, they did not have the gospels as we do, nor the letters, but only Paul's example, and that particular letter, at that time.)

Did the Corinthians not have the testimony of other apostles who'd seen Christ and written about and taught his doctrines, too? The letters of the various apostles, via copies, made the rounds throughout the Early Church. Was Paul, then, truly the only source of Christ's teachings and example they had? These same believers were, as Paul reminded them, temples of the Holy Spirit, who was their divine Teacher, imparting to them, not just the truths of the faith, but the very character of Christ (Romans 8:9-11) (what Paul described to the Galatians as the "Fruit of the Spirit" - Galatians 5:22-23). What need, then, of Paul as some sort of intermediary between the Corinthian believers and Christ? As I pointed out from the immediate context of Paul's words, he was referring to imitation of himself in a very specific regard, not generally.

Paul was, and is, an example of someone who imitates Christ. Like Peter, and John, and James, etc., these all, are imitators of Christ, and were examples, primarily to the Jews, but Paul, primarily to the Gentiles, the Corinthians being a case in point.

This all goes, directly, to my earlier communications with you, concerning complications of the simplicity that is in Christ.

My view differs from yours, but where yours is simplistic, mine is merely simple, that is, straightforward and clear, though not without depth. Christ is the believer's life, the substance, power, and source of their spiritual (and physical) life. This is the point Jesus made in John 15:4-5 and Paul echoed in Philippians 1:21, Colossians 3:4 and Romans 8:11. Any Christian who thinks they are merely to produce a copy, a mere imitation of, Christ misunderstands profoundly what it means for Christ to be their very life.

Complicated theologies are not of God, but man.

Please see that I'm not your enemy.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


If you are not my enemy, you have certainly set yourself as my opponent. And I shall treat you accordingly. If you want a more irenic exchange, might I suggest more grace, more inquiry and discovery of common ground, and less denouncement and aggressive challenge?
 
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Religiot

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It's amazing how you've spiritualized a contentious spirit! Wow.



Well, of course you did. It's your self-appointed "job" on CF - apparently - to find fault with any view that doesn't perfectly align with your own.



Did the Corinthians not have the testimony of other apostles who'd seen Christ and written about and taught his doctrines, too? The letters of the various apostles, via copies, made the rounds throughout the Early Church. Was Paul, then, truly the only source of Christ's teachings and example they had? These same believers were, as Paul reminded them, temples of the Holy Spirit, who was their divine Teacher, imparting to them, not just the truths of the faith, but the very character of Christ (Romans 8:9-11) (what Paul described to the Galatians as the "Fruit of the Spirit" - Galatians 5:22-23). What need, then, of Paul as some sort of intermediary between the Corinthian believers and Christ? As I pointed out from the immediate context of Paul's words, he was referring to imitation of himself in a very specific regard, not generally.



My view differs from yours, but where yours is simplistic, mine is merely simple, that is, straightforward and clear, though not without depth. Christ is the believer's life, the substance, power, and source of their spiritual (and physical) life. This is the point Jesus made in John 15:4-5 and Paul echoed in Philippians 1:21, Colossians 3:4 and Romans 8:11. Any Christian who thinks they are merely to produce a copy, a mere imitation of, Christ misunderstands profoundly what it means for Christ to be their very life.



2 Peter 3:15-16
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


If you are not my enemy, you have certainly set yourself as my opponent. And I shall treat you accordingly. If you want a more irenic exchange, might I suggest more grace, more inquiry and discovery of common ground, and less denouncement and aggressive challenge?
You've done it again, and in almost every response to me, thus far: you've twisted what I've said, and then responded to it... ...

I said, specifically, that they (Corinthians), where without the gospels, nor the letters, at that time, yet here you are, yet again, pretending as if I had said something else, and then responding to what you've pretended I've said.

This construction is commonly known as the straw-man fallacy. (In light of your previous posts, I hope the irony of that is not lost on you.)

I don't think we can have a fruitful dialog, yet a peaceful dialog is one I've been having--your attacks cannot discomfit my peace.

--Your claims to simplicity are overtly false; and your efforts to explain away true simplicity, by much wordiness, is manifest deception.

I don't think we have common ground, but superficially.
 
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aiki

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You've done it again, and in almost every response to me, thus far: you've twisted what I've said, and then responded to it... ...

I said, specifically, that they (Corinthians), where without the gospels, nor the letters, at that time, yet here you are, yet again, pretending as if I had said something else, and then responding to what you've pretended I've said.

No, actually, I didn't. Read again - more carefully - what I wrote. I asked questions and I made observations from Scripture, but I didn't make any direct, specific assertion or correction concerning your points.

Let's take a look:

"Did the Corinthians not have the testimony of other apostles who'd seen Christ and written about and taught his doctrines, too? The letters of the various apostles, via copies, made the rounds throughout the Early Church. Was Paul, then, truly the only source of Christ's teachings and example they had?"

So, I ask a question. Then, I point out a well-known fact about the transmission of apostolic teaching in the Early Church. And then, I ask another question. No assertions about the truth or falsity of your comments. No creation of a Strawman version of your comments, either. Just two questions and a statement of well-known fact.

"These same believers were, as Paul reminded them, temples of the Holy Spirit, who was their divine Teacher, imparting to them, not just the truths of the faith, but the very character of Christ (Romans 8:9-11) (what Paul described to the Galatians as the "Fruit of the Spirit" - Galatians 5:22-23). What need, then, of Paul as some sort of intermediary between the Corinthian believers and Christ? As I pointed out from the immediate context of Paul's words, he was referring to imitation of himself in a very specific regard, not generally."

Here, I make some observations about the work of the Holy Spirit, explaining that in the Spirit the Corinthian believers possessed something far greater and more essential to their lives as Christians than Paul. In another thread where we've gone at it, you've made a similar observation about the Holy Spirit yourself. So, where's the contortion of your viewpoint? I go on to ask a question. And, finally, I refer to things I'd already written in an earlier post. Where's the Strawman, exactly? Where do I form a cartoonish, weak version of your perspective and then knock it down?

This construction is commonly known as the straw-man fallacy. (In light of your previous posts, I hope the irony of that is not lost on you.)

I realize it would appeal to you to have a "Gotcha'!" moment about my remarks but you don't have one - despite your regularly trying to make it seem like you have.

I don't think we can have a fruitful dialog, yet a peaceful dialog is one I've been having--your attacks cannot discomfit my peace.

I did not remark on your peace but on the character of our exchange.

So far, "fruitful" is not how I'd describe my back-and-forth with you.

--Your claims to simplicity are overtly false; and your efforts to explain away true simplicity, by much wordiness, is manifest deception.

Uh huh. Your merely saying so doesn't make it so.
 
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