The Bible definition of Atonement and its many aspects

BobRyan

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As with all that God does -- there is "infinity" in the depth of His teaching, His concepts of Truth.

For example - the Atonement:

And some basic questions to keep in mind.

  • Does God's definition for the full scope of atonement as He defines it in Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" end with Christ's work as "the sin offering" (Atoning Sacrifice only)
  • or does it also show Christ's work as High Priest included in the full Bible scope of the term "Atonement"?

=================================
A list of aspects of the Atonement as we find it in the Bible.
  • The Ransom Aspect: Christ offered himself as a ransom (Mark 10:45). The wages of sin is death and Satan claims those who like-him - choose rebellion and sin should be members of his kingdom and under his rule. God's Law (not Satan) demands death of the sinner as "payment" -- "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23. So that His Own law is upheld rather than destroyed by the Gospel - He had to pay the full price demanded by the Law in the case of the sinner. And pay that full debt for all.
  • The Recapitulation Aspect: . Christ is the second Adam as we see in Romans 5. As in Adam all die - so in Christ all may be made alive and have eternal life - if they accept the Gospel
  • The legal Satisfaction aspect: God's Law (Justice) as He stated it - could only be satisfied by the second death debt paid for every sin of every sinner in all of time... only one being in the universe could pay such a price. God Himself. God so loved that "He gave" (He Himself pays) not "That He demanded" .
  • The Penal-Substitution Aspect penal substitution pays the debt we owe in the person of Christ "nailing our certificate of debt" to the cross. Col 2. Our speeding-ticket, our debt demanded by the LAW of God for the sin we committed
  • The Moral-Example Aspect: Christ lived and died to provide a perfect example for man. As 1 John 2 says we who are born again, and claim to know Christ, "should walk as he walked". And we are to "Take up our cross" and follow Christ Matthew 10
  • The Governmental Aspect: Christ an example of suffering to exhibit to erring man that sin is displeasing to him. God's moral government of the universe made it necessary for him to evince his wrath against sin -- and so we have the lake of fire - the second death for all sinners, both demons and wicked men. So to save mankind and still uphold the Law of God that rules the universe Christ died to show that the debt the law demanded is paid rather than God's law bent or abolished in order to save the sinner
  • The Declaratory Aspec: Christ died to show men how greatly God loves them. What love is this - that God died for us - while we were yet sinners Romans 5.
==================================
 

BobRyan

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Heb 8 - "the main point"

Heb 8
"Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
 
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Bro.T

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That's right Jesus was our sin offering. Let's go to Leviticus 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

This is the Day of Atonement. It must be observed on the 10th day of the seventh month, you must have a holy gathering and also you must afflict your souls, which means you must fast on this day (sundown to sundown). This day represents the atonement that Jesus made for us. In Moses' day the Priest would take 2 goats. One would be killed and the other would be let go. The Goat that was let go was called the scapegoat. On the scapegoat, all the sins of the people were place. It was then taken into the wilderness and released. This represents Jesus dying for us and taking all our sins upon Himself. This is for the ones that put themselves under the blood of Jesus. He suffered for us, so we should suffer a little showing our appreciation for what He did for us.

Let's take a look at the 2 goats and move on. Leviticus 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. Both of these goats represent Jesus. The Goat was offered for a sin offering. What was Jesus? He was our sin offering to the Father. The scapegoat presented alive, represented the Lord when He came out of the grave and was presented alive to the Father. Let us continue in the 23rd chapter of Leviticus.

Leviticus 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. On this day, there is absolutely no work to be done. This day the Lord made atonement for us.

Let us now go into Romans the 5th chapter and see what the Lord's death and resurrection did for us. Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Christ died for the ungodly. If everyone was without sin or perfect, the Lord would not have had to die for us. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice what is being said. We were reconciled or recovered by His death, and we shall be saved by His life. Remember the scapegoat? Jesus had to take our sins away. Just like the scapegoat released in the wilderness. If Jesus did not resurrect we would still be in our sins.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

If you put yourself under the Lord's blood, He has made an atonement for your sins that have passed. You have been reconciled. It is up to you to continue in this reconciliation unto eternal life. (MEANING KEEPING HIS LAWS AND STATUES). This day represents the Lord making atonement for our sins.
 
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As with all that God does -- there is "infinity" in the depth of His teaching, His concepts of Truth.

For example - the Atonement:

And some basic questions to keep in mind....

In this matter, I think it would be good to keep in mind also that Jesus could forgive sins before his death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

That is why I don’t think his death was necessary for sins to be forgiven.

But, Jesus used his life for us, so that we could be saved. I think that is the reason why he can be called atonement for our sins.
 
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bling

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That's right Jesus was our sin offering. Let's go to Leviticus 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

This is the Day of Atonement. It must be observed on the 10th day of the seventh month, you must have a holy gathering and also you must afflict your souls, which means you must fast on this day (sundown to sundown). This day represents the atonement that Jesus made for us. In Moses' day the Priest would take 2 goats. One would be killed and the other would be let go. The Goat that was let go was called the scapegoat. On the scapegoat, all the sins of the people were place. It was then taken into the wilderness and released. This represents Jesus dying for us and taking all our sins upon Himself. This is for the ones that put themselves under the blood of Jesus. He suffered for us, so we should suffer a little showing our appreciation for what He did for us.

Let's take a look at the 2 goats and move on. Leviticus 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. Both of these goats represent Jesus. The Goat was offered for a sin offering. What was Jesus? He was our sin offering to the Father. The scapegoat presented alive, represented the Lord when He came out of the grave and was presented alive to the Father. Let us continue in the 23rd chapter of Leviticus.

Leviticus 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. On this day, there is absolutely no work to be done. This day the Lord made atonement for us.

Let us now go into Romans the 5th chapter and see what the Lord's death and resurrection did for us. Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Christ died for the ungodly. If everyone was without sin or perfect, the Lord would not have had to die for us. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice what is being said. We were reconciled or recovered by His death, and we shall be saved by His life. Remember the scapegoat? Jesus had to take our sins away. Just like the scapegoat released in the wilderness. If Jesus did not resurrect we would still be in our sins.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

If you put yourself under the Lord's blood, He has made an atonement for your sins that have passed. You have been reconciled. It is up to you to continue in this reconciliation unto eternal life. (MEANING KEEPING HIS LAWS AND STATUES). This day represents the Lord making atonement for our sins.
What “sins” are being atoned for and forgiven on the “Day of Atonement” since:

1. the Hebrew writer said: Hebrews 9:7 …for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

2. There was already atonement and forgiveness for unintentional (almost accidental) sins when the sinner came to the realize these were sins(not sins the person was ignorant of doing) (Lev. 5).

3. Intentional sins against God seem to have no atonement sacrifice, but were to result quickly in banishment or death of the sinner. This could be picking up sticks on the sabbath.

Would the atonement sacrifice discussed in Lev. 5 be more like Christ’s sacrifice, just one was for very minor sins and the other was huge, for all sins including rebellious disobedience?
 
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bling

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In this matter, I think it would be good to keep in mind also that Jesus could forgive sins before his death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

That is why I don’t think his death was necessary for sins to be forgiven.

But, Jesus used his life for us, so that we could be saved. I think that is the reason why he can be called atonement for our sins.
That is good, but was Jesus the atonement sacrifice and the priest and not the whole atonement process?
 
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BobRyan

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In this matter, I think it would be good to keep in mind also that Jesus could forgive sins before his death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

That is why I don’t think his death was necessary for sins to be forgiven.

But, Jesus used his life for us, so that we could be saved. I think that is the reason why he can be called atonement for our sins.

Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 - before the cross - but that is because God is not limited by time...not because the cross was not necessary.

"8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8
 
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bling

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Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 - before the cross - but that is because God is not limited by time...not because the cross was not necessary.
Man is in time, so what man could do before the cross is less then man could do after the cross and one of those things is experiencing "Atonement" for his rebellious disobedience.
 
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BobRyan

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That is good, but was Jesus the atonement sacrifice and the priest and not the whole atonement process?
He is both the sin offering of Lev 16 and also the High Priest of Lev 16 (Day of Atonement).

Heb 8:1-5 tells us that He went to heaven to do the work of the High Priest.
 
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BobRyan

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Matt 17 - "Moses and Elijah stand in glory WITH Christ" before the cross.. fully forgiven, sinless, glorified

Man is in time, so what man could do before the cross is less then man could do after the cross and one of those things is experiencing "Atonement" for his rebellious disobedience.

man cannot fully atone for sins before the cross or after the cross - and still survive it.

Forgiveness was full and free both before the cross and afterwards by faith in "the Lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world"
 
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Bro.T

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What “sins” are being atoned for and forgiven on the “Day of Atonement” since:

1. the Hebrew writer said: Hebrews 9:7 …for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

2. There was already atonement and forgiveness for unintentional (almost accidental) sins when the sinner came to the realize these were sins(not sins the person was ignorant of doing) (Lev. 5).

3. Intentional sins against God seem to have no atonement sacrifice, but were to result quickly in banishment or death of the sinner. This could be picking up sticks on the sabbath.

Would the atonement sacrifice discussed in Lev. 5 be more like Christ’s sacrifice, just one was for very minor sins and the other was huge, for all sins including rebellious disobedience?

The Atonement is done once a year. All your sins is put on the scapegoat, and now today that represent Jesus, and still to be observe to this day. Because sin is still in the world, and sin bring forth death. Paul says in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now back in the days of Moses, there were two laws given, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law. Watch how they worked together.
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the commandments.

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's skip down to the 27th verse and take a look at the second law (which is the sacrificial law).

And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. (Leviticus 4:27-30)

When the common people sinned through ignorance and it came to their knowledge, what did they have to do? They brought an offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for their sin which they had committed, then the priest would offer the animal to the Lord. Think about this for a moment. If an animal was killed for a person that committed sin, what will happen to us today if we a trespass against the Lord?

So now, let's skip down to our time and allow Paul to explained this in; (Heb.10:1, 9-10,18,26-27) (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.

(v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).


This year: The Day of Atonement begins Thursday, September 16, 2021 at sundown and ends Friday, September 17, 2021 at sundown.
 
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BobRyan

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Let us now go into Romans the 5th chapter and see what the Lord's death and resurrection did for us. Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Christ died for the ungodly. If everyone was without sin or perfect, the Lord would not have had to die for us. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice what is being said. We were reconciled or recovered by His death, and we shall be saved by His life. Remember the scapegoat?

The scapegoat in Lev 16 is not the sin offering , is not slain, so then not a substitutionary atoning sacrifice at all. All sin offerings in Lev had to be slain "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" Heb 9
 
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Bro.T

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In this matter, I think it would be good to keep in mind also that Jesus could forgive sins before his death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

That is why I don’t think his death was necessary for sins to be forgiven.

But, Jesus used his life for us, so that we could be saved. I think that is the reason why he can be called atonement for our sins.

I agree with you Jesus could forgive sins, but also you have to know that there's things you have to do as well, to show faith and works. You have to repent, you must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus. "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16):
because it is the baptism that washes away our past sins.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 1:36-38).
 
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The scapegoat in Lev 16 is not the sin offering , is not slain, so then not a substitutionary atoning sacrifice at all. All sin offerings in Lev had to be slain "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" Heb 9

The Atonement been going on for thousands of years before Christ. Lev 16 is exactly that. You must be without understanding. Hebrew 9 is Jesus taking that position in whole, becoming the High Priest. Hebrew 9 comes after Jesus came and died. You could of just ask for understanding about it all, then to say I'm wrong and use Hebrew 9. It all works together in a order.
 
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Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 - before the cross - but that is because God is not limited by time...not because the cross was not necessary.

But, I don’t think Bible tells it was necessary for that. Biblical reason why Jesus came on earth is this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
Mark 1:38

And reason why died is this:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9
 
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That is good, but was Jesus the atonement sacrifice and the priest and not the whole atonement process?

The purpose of atonement sacrifice is to make amends or reparation. In away it fixes the relationship between God and man. Jesus came on earth to do that. He declared the forgiveness and also showed the correct way to life.

"Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
John 8:11

The difference between old sacrifice and Jesus is, the old ones didn’t cause change in heart so that person would become righteous and reject sin. That is why it can be said:

"Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you didn't desire, neither had pleasure in them" (those which are offered according to the law),
Heb. 10:8

By Jesus there is the forgiveness, but also the words that can cause change in person so that he becomes righteous.

…You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

…as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

… Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Because of these, I think the common idea of atonement or sacrifice is too simple. It is really not only about forgiveness, but also about fixing the relationship between man and God. And that does not happen because of death, but because of the words Jesus told that can cause the change for better. And we have those words, because Jesus was willing to use his life for our benefit. And, because he did so, it can be said that he sacrificed his life for us, for our benefit. (It could be compared to a soldier who sacrifices his life by defending his country). Jesus could have had all the kingdoms of the earth and he could have lived for his own benefit, but instead of that, he used his life for us to have life. His death was the result of that, and I believe one reason why it was allowed was that then God could rise Jesus from death and his disciples would get the courage to continue fearlessly so that even we could hear the Gospel. That I think Jesus meant when he said:

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24
 
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... "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16):
because it is the baptism that washes away our past sins....

I think that is not accurate enough, because Jesus told about the baptism:

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

I think that is the purpose of baptism Jesus taught. But, at that same time, it is possible to have sins forgiven. I just don’t think it means it is the water that makes it, but the words Jesus said.

...The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63
 
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bling

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Matt 17 - "Moses and Elijah stand in glory WITH Christ" before the cross.. fully forgiven, sinless, glorified



man cannot fully atone for sins before the cross or after the cross - and still survive it.

Forgiveness was full and free both before the cross and afterwards by faith in "the Lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world"
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, NIV)

This verse does provide a lot of information about how sins prior to Christ going to the cross were handled.

First off: Paul is giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, just a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished”, but that also means the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined” (you discipline your children and do not punish your children).

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for their rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel a death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I, who needs that blood outside of Christ to flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

….

Here is something to think about to help you address the questions below:

The cross is foolishness to the nonbeliever, so it takes a lot to show the logic and benefit.

Paul repeats ideas and builds on the previous explanation, so the ideas in Romans’ 5 go back to Ro. 3:25 and even further back to Romans’ 1.

I would at least start with Ro. 3:25

Paul in Ro. 3:25 giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, only a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished” (NIV), but that also should mean the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan worthy of a rasom, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined”.

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel the death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

I use the NIV all though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, I the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

There are lots of excellent benefits from being disciplined, but prior to Christ’s crucifixion, there was no way to fairly/justly discipline a rebellious disobedient repentant child seeking forgiveness and allow the child to live. The disciplines were just to hard being banishment or physical death. By Christ going to the cross we can now be “crucified with Christ”, empathetically. How severe of a disciplining is this for Christians and how would it compare to the pain and sorrow God went through while Christ was crucified?

Notice there is no language suggesting the sins are put on hold, rolled forward or dealt with later, but are “passed over”/left unpunished.

Here are some questions I used in my adult Bible class:

Roman 3 starting with Ro. 3:24

1. Prior to Christ going to the cross where some people forgiven of their sins and if so who, how and why?

2. (God “pass over sins” or as in the NIV “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”) so which sins in the passage are these?

3. The OT gives lots of severe punishments for sins, so could/did “severe sins” go unpunished? Did God allow/want them to go unpunished? Why have these severe rules and punishments in the law?

4. Where the forgiven sins of those before the cross forgiven the exact same way as those after the cross?

5. If some sins where forgiven before the cross, was the cross needed to forgive sins?

6. From your own experience how hard was/is it for you to forgive the transgressions of your truly repentant child? Was/is there other action you have/had to see to that was harder to do? (What are/was it?)

7. Did you punish or discipline your children? (What would Dr. Dobson say?)

8. From your own experience with your children, if your child correctly accepted your most wise discipline and purely charitable forgiveness; was your relationship with your child better after or before the disobedience?

9. Is disciplining your child a learning maturing growing experience?

10. How could your rebellious/disobedient child stand “justified’ and “righteous” before you even today?

11. Look at the example Christ gives with the prodigal son (Luke 15: 11-32). Who is the kidnapper, what ransom was paid, who was set free, and could the son stand “justified” and/or “righteous” before the father?

12. Rev. 5: 9 “…and with your blood you purchased for God, persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.” Who did Christ pay the purchase price to?

13. What reason would Christ have for paying satan?

14. If God forgives our sins why would they still have to be paid for?

15. If Christ paid for our sins, why do they still need to be forgiven?

16. Atonement (propitiation) sacrifice can be for everyone with the ransom payment being offered but the kidnapper may refuse to accept the sacrifice, so it was made in vain for that kidnapper and the child is not freed?
 
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bling

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He is both the sin offering of Lev 16 and also the High Priest of Lev 16 (Day of Atonement).

Heb 8:1-5 tells us that He went to heaven to do the work of the High Priest.
Yes, Christ is the much better priest, but you need to start with Lev. 5 at least.
 
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bling

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The Atonement is done once a year. All your sins is put on the scapegoat, and now today that represent Jesus, and still to be observe to this day. Because sin is still in the world, and sin bring forth death. Paul says in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now back in the days of Moses, there were two laws given, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law. Watch how they worked together.
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the commandments.

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's skip down to the 27th verse and take a look at the second law (which is the sacrificial law).
Not to sure about what you mean by “There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully.”

Lev. 6:1The Lord said to Moses: 2 “If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the Lord by deceiving a neighbor about something entrusted to them or left in their care or about something stolen, or if they cheat their neighbor, 3 or if they find lost property and lie about it, or if they swear falsely about any such sin that people may commit— 4 when they sin in any of these ways and realize their guilt, they must return what they have stolen or taken by extortion, or what was entrusted to them, or the lost property they found, 5 or whatever it was they swore falsely about. They must make restitution in full, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the owner on the day they present their guilt offering. 6 And as a penalty they must bring to the priest, that is, to the Lord, their guilt offering, a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. 7 In this way the priest will make atonement for them before the Lord, and they will be forgiven for any of the things they did that made them guilty.”

They would know they stole and lied which is sin, so why is that not willful?



And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. (Leviticus 4:27-30)

When the common people sinned through ignorance and it came to their knowledge, what did they have to do? They brought an offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for their sin which they had committed, then the priest would offer the animal to the Lord. Think about this for a moment. If an animal was killed for a person that committed sin, what will happen to us today if we a trespass against the Lord?

So now, let's skip down to our time and allow Paul to explained this in; (Heb.10:1, 9-10,18,26-27) (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.

(v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).


This year: The Day of Atonement begins Thursday, September 16, 2021 at sundown and ends Friday, September 17, 2021 at sundown.
OK

Are you saying only sins of ignorance were atoned for on the Day of Atonement?

If you would read my post 18 and comment, I would appreciate it.
 
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