Defining "Works"

Ceallaigh

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I think works means actions. If person is righteous, he does righteous works.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

I agree. When I replace the word "works" with "actions" it's more clear to me.
 
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Saint Steven

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It seems, when most people think of "works" (especially unbelievers) they think of getting up in the morning to go to 'work' at a 'job' so they can 'earn' a living. And, really, you could define getting out of bed in the morning "work" since you have to get one foot out, then the other, then push yourself up.

I love John 6:28-29, as you mentioned. Could you define "...to believe..." as work? Sure you can.

Also, I was just recently in Acts and came across Acts 26:20. Notice what Paul says about repentance and works/deeds...
Good post. Thanks.
That is the aspect of works as an evidence of saving faith. Or repentance, in this case. The turning away from sin. People notice. (and even comment, or ask questions)

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I'm currently reading John and this stood out:

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:28-29
 
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Saint Steven

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As an Existentialist, I'm more prone than most follks to feel "free" to trek out in unsuspected directions that others don't wish to think about in Philosophy. However, in a case where we're trying to decipher what Paul is saying, I'm thinking that the method used in our efforts to understand Paul will probably need to be one that enables us to get at what Paul really meant to communicate to us on the whole.

On some level I can appreciate the idea of being innovative in our intepretations of Scripture, but I'm not sure that our innovations can, at the same time, ignore the usual paradigmatic and literary contexts that are interlaced with what a person (such as Paul) says or writes.

So, if we're going to interpret Romans 4:4-5, we can't do this by taking these verses alone, disconnected from the river of meaning that Paul is rolling forth throughout his entire letter to the Romans. I could be wrong, but Romans 4:4-5 has to be seen as a step within the dialectic which reflects all that runs through the whole of the letter to the Romans.
On that basis can you prove that the works in Romans 4:4-5 are the works of the law? Show us. Thanks.
 
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Saint Steven

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The Greek ergon can mean different things in different contexts but it’s most general meaning is something like “products” or “efforts”.
How would that apply to Ephesians 2:10 ?
 
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Saint Steven

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Works is mayonnaise, lettuce, onion, tomato, ketchup, pickles and mustard.

(most people don't get my jokes)
Then it must be evidence of something. I wonder what. ???
Oh, got it.
Lettuce consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds... (Hebrews 10:24)
 
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Saint Steven

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I think works means actions. If person is righteous, he does righteous works.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
On what basis are we considered righteous?
 
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Saint Steven

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Alright. I see you have your own point of view which you're apparently adamant about. And which hermeneutical teachers do you suggest I (we) rely upon, brother NotreDame?

I have to ask because when I look at a verse like Romans 4:2, I see it saying one thing but actually meaning:

For if Abraham was justified by works (implied = Works of the Law), he has something to boast about; but not before God ...​

Am I wrong? If so, how?
The law doesn't apply to Abraham. He was before Moses and the giving of the law.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
 
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Saint Steven

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Hello Saint Steven brother, and all who have posted: Faith without works is dead.

If Love the Lord Your God, with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, and all your strength and love your neighbour as yourself is part of the law of Moses, do we still follow what Jesus Christ tells when he says Love God, and Love others?


Is faith towards God implying having a relationship and that love for God overflow through the Lord Jesus Christ and the spirit inside us outwardly to others?

Faith with out this type of work 'believing on the one whom God sent' disqualify love altogether therefore the faith is rendered dead?
Greetings. Welcome aboard.
I got a mental image while reading your post.

The works of the law are like putting your car in neutral and pushing it down the road. Grace is like getting in the car and having the faith to turn the key in the ignition, put it in gear and head down the road. One is definitely MORE work than the other. Which one will win the race?
 
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Saint Steven

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Alright, so I see that you're employing a hermeneutic for your exegesis. And from what source have you drawn your methodology? Do you have a scholar you can offer me whom you feel backs you in your interpretation here?
Should we discount the Apostles on the basis of education?

Acts 4:13
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The law doesn't apply to Abraham. He was before Moses and the giving of the law.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Yep, I agree with that. I'm not sure why everyone is thus far dogg'n me so much over my essential agreement but different exegesis of small, singular verses.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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On that basis can you prove that the works in Romans 4:4-5 are the works of the law? Show us. Thanks.

Rather than prove anything, I'd rather have us apply good exegesis and hermeneutical method...together.
 
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Saint Steven

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Then it must be evidence of something. I wonder what. ???
Oh, got it.
Lettuce consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds... (Hebrews 10:24)
Or this: @MMXX

They had not gone far from the city when Joseph said to his steward, “Go after those men at once, and when you ketchup with them, say to them, ‘Why have you repaid good with evil? (Genesis 44:4)
 
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Saint Steven

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Yep, I agree with that. I'm not sure why everyone is thus far dogg'n me so much over my essential agreement but different exegesis of small, singular verses.
Probably because they (we) disagree and want to challenge your thinking. If we didn't like you, we would put you on IGNORE. - lol

What makes a verse "small" and "singular"? Was Zacchaeus "small" and "singular"? (Luke 19)
 
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Saint Steven

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Rather than prove anything, I'd rather have us apply good exegesis and hermeneutical method...together.
Translation: I can't prove it. (or at least not without some help)

What can I do to help? (I'm not much good at Herman nudists) - lol
Besides, I already looked at the near context. Which supports my position. It didn't raise any questions for me. Did the near context raise questions for you? Like what?

Saint Steven said:
On that basis can you prove that the works in Romans 4:4-5 are the works of the law? Show us. Thanks.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Probably because they (we) disagree and want to challenge your thinking. If we didn't like you, we would put you on IGNORE. - lol

What makes a verse "small" and "singular"? Was Zacchaeus "small" and "singular"? (Luke 19)

No, brother Steve. In this instance, I'm only referring to the verse that I had under the microscope back up in post #50, where I was being trounced on by NortreDame and not really allowed a place to be heard. (i.e. Romans 4:2)
 
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Saint Steven

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No, brother Steve. In this instance, I'm only referring to the verse that I had under the microscope back up in post #50, where I was being trounced on by NortreDame and not really allowed a place to be heard. (i.e. Romans 4:2)
Doesn't Herman nudists require you to consider the near context first? (after considering the verse itself) ???

BTW the aforementioned doesn't give anyone a place to be heard. You are not being singled out. Look for Agree ratings by them. Nonexistent? (very telling)

As I have said before, it seems that some consider the forum to be a blood sport. (kill, or be killed)
 
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Doesn't Herman nudists require you to consider the near context first? (after considering the verse itself) ???
Yes, I'm sure that Gordon D. Fee (Assemblies of God), Craig L. Blomberg, and D.A. Carson would recommend looking at the near context as the first of several layers of context.

BTW the aforementioned doesn't give anyone a place to be heard. You are not being singled out. Look for Agree ratings by them. Nonexistent? (very telling)

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I think other Christians will be hard pressed to find anywhere in my 10 years of being on CF where I show up, unannounced and initiate a 'take down' of another Christian.

No, I've always had a consistent personal policy of treating other Christians with respect and allowing them a place to be heard, even if I disagree with them. But somehow, I don't seem to get that same kind of understanding in return. Also, I don't shut any other Christian down or out.
 
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