The richness of scripture and faith

bekkilyn · Jan 27, 2021

*****PLEASE NOTE: This is the LIBERAL CHRISTIAN faith forum, so before you jump in eager to put down and tear apart and criticize, please read the forum rules for this group. Thank you.*******

Not that a disclaimer should be necessary, but there it is. In fact, I can't help but think that what I am about to post shouldn't be considered as liberal by Christians in the first place, but again there it is.

During my walk in nature this morning, I was having more thoughts on the Christian faith in general as well as some of the "discussions" I've recently been involved in here on CF, more particularly the threads concerning "women pastors" and how those threads always seem to be reduced to arguing over legalistic semantics before they are finally closed and the poor horse has once again been put to rest for a couple of days before it is resurrected to be tortured, beaten, and killed once again.

While I hold scripture in very high regard and find it to be a blessing from God in helping us to better understand his character and to help us along our salvation journey, I believe it to be a travesty to reduce it to nothing more than a book of law that we use to justify excluding various sorts of people from their full participation in God's Kingdom and stunting their path of salvation. I'm not just talking about the "woman topic" here, but so many other things, and will probably do a very deficient job in attempting to explain what is within me right now.

Scripture is so rich with language, with culture, with history, with poetry, with all the wonders of creation that displays before us the magnificent wonder of God, a God who lives within us today, is active in the world he created today, who speaks to us and works through us today, his presence is literally among us today, the Word of God speaking to us not only through scripture, but through creation itself!

And God calls us to participate in it...fully and richly!

And yet, when there is someone so full of joy, so full of the power of the Holy Spirit, so enthusiastic in love and faith for God and immersed in the bounty and grace of Christ Jesus, and is eager to share with others, what is the first thing that very often happens?

Some examples:

God didn't call you. You're a woman.
God didn't call you. Democrats can't be Christians.
God doesn't love everyone, so most people are going to hell (with the unstated implication that it includes you specifically.)
Your spiritual gifts are from Satan because God doesn't work like that anymore.
That still small voice you hear is of the devil and not the Holy Spirit because _________________ (quote random verse pulled out of context here.)
Black people are cursed by God because of Ham.
Your "neighbor" only includes people from your church (and maybe other Christians who think like you do) and not everybody. (With the implication that we don't have to love and/or care about them.)
God wouldn't have said that to you since he only speaks in the bible.

The list could go on, but anyway, by the time the "Debbie downers" swarm in, what was once beautiful and joyful has grown tarnished and dull.

I personally can't practice a faith that has been reduced to thousands of different rules and laws that must be obeyed (and of course obeyed in the precise way that Joe Fundamentalist interprets them.) It's a toxic form of faith that is void of the love and grace of God and the freedom we experience in Jesus Christ.

Maybe it's a difference between believing *in* God and *believing* God.

I just come across far too much shallowness within Christianity and I feel like it really shouldn't be this way because God isn't that way.

Tree of Life · Jan 27, 2021

How do you know what God is like?

It would indeed be wrong to "[exclude] various sorts of people from their full participation in God's Kingdom and [stunt] their path of salvation."

This is why I oppose affirming homosexuality. To do so would be to do exactly as you've said - to exclude them from the kingdom and to stunt their path of salvation.

bekkilyn · Jan 27, 2021

Tree of Life said:
How do you know what God is like?

How do you know what your spouse, children, parents, other family members and/or friends are like?

It would indeed be wrong to "[exclude] various sorts of people from their full participation in God's Kingdom and [stunt] their path of salvation."

This is why I oppose affirming homosexuality. To do so would be to do exactly as you've said - to exclude them from the kingdom and to stunt their path of salvation.

If this is what you've gotten from what I've posted, then you've drastically missed the mark.

mlepfitjw · Jan 27, 2021

bekkilyn said:
*****PLEASE NOTE: This is the LIBERAL CHRISTIAN faith forum, so before you jump in eager to put down and tear apart and criticize, please read the forum rules for this group. Thank you.*******

Not that a disclaimer should be necessary, but there it is. In fact, I can't help but think that what I am about to post shouldn't be considered as liberal by Christians in the first place, but again there it is.

During my walk in nature this morning, I was having more thoughts on the Christian faith in general as well as some of the "discussions" I've recently been involved in here on CF, more particularly the threads concerning "women pastors" and how those threads always seem to be reduced to arguing over legalistic semantics before they are finally closed and the poor horse has once again been put to rest for a couple of days before it is resurrected to be tortured, beaten, and killed once again.

While I hold scripture in very high regard and find it to be a blessing from God in helping us to better understand his character and to help us along our salvation journey, I believe it to be a travesty to reduce it to nothing more than a book of law that we use to justify excluding various sorts of people from their full participation in God's Kingdom and stunting their path of salvation. I'm not just talking about the "woman topic" here, but so many other things, and will probably do a very deficient job in attempting to explain what is within me right now.

Scripture is so rich with language, with culture, with history, with poetry, with all the wonders of creation that displays before us the magnificent wonder of God, a God who lives within us today, is active in the world he created today, who speaks to us and works through us today, his presence is literally among us today, the Word of God speaking to us not only through scripture, but through creation itself!

And God calls us to participate in it...fully and richly!

And yet, when there is someone so full of joy, so full of the power of the Holy Spirit, so enthusiastic in love and faith for God and immersed in the bounty and grace of Christ Jesus, and is eager to share with others, what is the first thing that very often happens?

Some examples:

God didn't call you. You're a woman.
God didn't call you. Democrats can't be Christians.
God doesn't love everyone, so most people are going to hell (with the unstated implication that it includes you specifically.)
Your spiritual gifts are from Satan because God doesn't work like that anymore.
That still small voice you hear is of the devil and not the Holy Spirit because _________________ (quote random verse pulled out of context here.)
Black people are cursed by God because of Ham.
Your "neighbor" only includes people from your church (and maybe other Christians who think like you do) and not everybody. (With the implication that we don't have to love and/or care about them.)
God wouldn't have said that to you since he only speaks in the bible.

The list could go on, but anyway, by the time the "Debbie downers" swarm in, what was once beautiful and joyful has grown tarnished and dull.

I personally can't practice a faith that has been reduced to thousands of different rules and laws that must be obeyed (and of course obeyed in the precise way that Joe Fundamentalist interprets them.) It's a toxic form of faith that is void of the love and grace of God and the freedom we experience in Jesus Christ.

Maybe it's a difference between believing *in* God and *believing* God.

I just come across far too much shallowness within Christianity and I feel like it really shouldn't be this way because God isn't that way.

What you are saying is very true indeed. God is love, and God sent his son Jesus Christ who chose to die for all mankind because of loving God, and Loving others.

If Jesus Christ did not love all mankind, he would not have died for them.

As you say you hold scripture in high regard, it is full of history, culture, and poetry it is so true. There is a lot of value that is found in scripture that can help the spiritual body that is given to believers inside, and the Holy Spirit, as well as the spirit of Christ Jesus who is living inside of us because we believe on the Son of God.

Those out there who believe that God is love, will understand love fully as in described in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7;13. Though most people scoff at this even being true, and their flesh gets in the way maybe because they are not working on the spirit but rather the flesh and they must have it in the perspective of our will, rather than the perspective of God and his will for us in Christ Jesus.

Thank you for your post, is well thought out, and believe you have very good points that you make.

Tree of Life · Jan 27, 2021

bekkilyn said:
How do you know what your spouse, children, parents, other family members and/or friends are like?

From their self-disclosure. This is how we know what God is like - from his self-disclosure. This is principally found in Scripture and also life experience interpreted by Scripture.

If this is what you've gotten from what I've posted, then you've drastically missed the mark.

How is that?

bekkilyn · Jan 27, 2021

Tree of Life said:
From their self-disclosure. This is how we know what God is like - from his self-disclosure. This is principally found in Scripture and also life experience interpreted by Scripture.

So all someone has to do is write an autobiography and you thereby gain a deep, loving connection and meaningful relationship with them upon reading it?

How is that?

How indeed.

hedrick · Jan 28, 2021

Tree of Life said:
From their self-disclosure. This is how we know what God is like - from his self-disclosure. This is principally found in Scripture and also life experience interpreted by Scripture.

I think most of us would see some indirection here. God disclosed himself to his people, though his work with Israel and of course though Jesus. Scripture is a witness to that, but much of it also reflects how his people responded. That means that we can't just take statements out of Scripture and read them as timeless oracles directly from God.

Magnanimity · Feb 3, 2021

bekkilyn said:
During my walk in nature this morning, I was having more thoughts on the Christian faith in general as well as some of the "discussions" I've recently been involved in here on CF,

First, let me say that a morning walk in nature sounds wonderful! I'm a bit envious and think that this may be something I need to incorporate into my own life one day. Second, I'd like to say that I resonate with your entire post. In the event that some of my responses to you may be helpful, I offer them below. If nothing else, maybe it'll be comforting to you that I'm a fellow-wanderer that approaches Christian spirituality in a similar way to yourself! I myself am Catholic. If that raises an immediate red flag for you, then I understand. All I really mean by saying I'm Catholic is that I fall within that very vast umbrella of Catholic Christianity, which includes very traditional folks and very progressive ones. I can't say that I self-identify as progressive or liberal (although if you were to poll most of my political opinions, you'd likely say--definitely progressive!) I avoid the labeling because I abhor the tribing-up that humans too often do. I'd rather look for that which is true, good and beautiful in all perspectives. Reality itself (to say nothing of an infinite God) is so vast and inexhaustible that it's impossible that any one group would reach the end of things. That is to say, it's impossible to do much more than scratch the surface of the Real with one's worldview. For my money, that's what we're all doing here--just tinkering away at whatever surface of the Diamond that we stumbled upon.

bekkilyn said:
While I hold scripture in very high regard and find it to be a blessing from God in helping us to better understand his character and to help us along our salvation journey, I believe it to be a travesty to reduce it to nothing more than a book of law that we use to justify excluding various sorts of people from their full participation in God's Kingdom and stunting their path of salvation. I'm not just talking about the "woman topic" here, but so many other things

Oh, absolutely! One of my favorite understandings that I happened upon a few years ago was just how different the early church fathers and mothers approached our sacred writings. Allegorical and spiritual readings of the texts were rampant. In 1993, the Pontifical Biblical Commission put it this way:

"Recourse to allegory stems also from the conviction that the Bible, as God's book, was given by God to his people, the church. In principle, there is nothing in it which is to be set aside as out of date or completely lacking meaning. God is constantly speaking to his Christian people a message that is ever relevant for their time. In their explanations of the Bible, the fathers mix and weave together typological and allegorical interpretations in a virtually inextricable way. But they do so always for a pastoral and pedagogical purpose, convinced that everything that has been written has been written for our instruction (cf. 1 Cor. 10:11).

Convinced that they are dealing with the Book of God and therefore with something of inexhaustible meaning, the fathers hold that any particular passage is open to any particular interpretation on an allegorical basis. But they also consider that others are free to offer something else, provided only that what is offered respects the analogy of faith.

The allegorical interpretation of Scripture so characteristic of patristic exegesis runs the risk of being something of an embarrassment to people today. But the experience of the church expressed in this exegesis makes a contribution that is always useful (cf. Divino Afflante Spiritu, 31-32; Dei Verbum, 23). The fathers of the church teach to read the Bible theologically, within the heart of a living tradition, with an authentic Christian spirit."

I would say that we today should be much more like our spiritual fathers and mothers in the faith. We should believe that the sacred writings are effectively inexhaustible in their richness. So, instead of ever asking ourselves, "what is the one and only meaning in this text?" the more appropriate question might be, "what is a true reading of this text, in harmony with the broader spirit and mind of the church throughout the ages that testifies to Christ who is himself the Word of God?" Just a thought.

bekkilyn said:
Scripture is so rich with language, with culture, with history, with poetry, with all the wonders of creation that displays before us the magnificent wonder of God, a God who lives within us today, is active in the world he created today, who speaks to us and works through us today, his presence is literally among us today, the Word of God speaking to us not only through scripture, but through creation itself!

bekkilyn said:
And God calls us to participate in it...fully and richly!

Are you familiar with the life of St Francis of Assisi? In 2015, Pope Francis (whose namesake is from this famous saint) put it like this in his letter laudato si:

"Saint Francis, faithful to Scripture, invites us to see nature as a magnificent book in which God speaks to us and grants us a glimpse of his infinite beauty and goodness. “Through the greatness and the beauty of creatures one comes to know by analogy their maker” (Wis 13:5); indeed, “his eternal power and divinity have been made known through his works since the creation of the world” (Rom 1:20). For this reason, Francis asked that part of the friary garden always be left untouched, so that wild flowers and herbs could grow there, and those who saw them could raise their minds to God, the Creator of such beauty.[21] Rather than a problem to be solved, the world is a joyful mystery to be contemplated with gladness and praise."

I'm not bringing up Catholic theology or quoting Catholics for any other reason than to show you fellow wanderers who agree with you and resonate with your spirituality. I want you to know that, not only are you not alone in your convictions here, but rather you have prominent Christian voices from the present and past who deeply sympathize with you!

bekkilyn said:
I personally can't practice a faith that has been reduced to thousands of different rules and laws that must be obeyed (and of course obeyed in the precise way that Joe Fundamentalist interprets them.) It's a toxic form of faith that is void of the love and grace of God and the freedom we experience in Jesus Christ.

Believe me, I know the feeling. I've had many online conversations over the years with fundamentalists (religious ones and non-religious). I recently came over from the now-defunct Catholic Answers Forums. I encountered fundamentalists there from 2004-2020. It's always frustrating. The fundamentalist has taken his particular vantage point of the Diamond (Reality) and declared that that is all there is to the vast Diamond. It's all he can see of the Diamond, and he somehow draws the conclusion that all he can see is necessarily all there is to see. Fundamentalism is a deep error, but I sympathize with why such folks exist. Humans are drawn toward simplicity. Nuance and complexity and forcing our minds-hearts to stretch beyond our comfort zones is hard, spiritual work. For some of us (like me!) it's work that spreads out over years and years.

bekkilyn said:
Maybe it's a difference between believing *in* God and *believing* God.

I think so. Some years ago a well-known atheist philosopher of religion named Antony Flew eventually came to believe that some of the arguments for the existence of God were likely correct. As in, for him, it became more likely than not that a deity exists, even though most of his life had been spent arguing against the existence of God. But, that's about where it stopped for him. He didn't really align himself with a religious/spiritual tradition. He came to believe in God. But, did he believe God? Did he open himself up to that depth of himself at which God is ever reaching out to each individual human--his conscience? I don't know. Maybe not. So, there is something different about those folks who merely believe in God as opposed to being really open to God's presence from moment to moment to moment.

bekkilyn said:
I just come across far too much shallowness within Christianity and I feel like it really shouldn't be this way because God isn't that way.

I think you're right. It shouldn't be that way, and our infinite God of love who is pure actuality itself (as St Thomas Aquinas would put it) surely isn't shallow either. If anything, there is nothing more expansive, all-encompassing and all-embracing than God.

bekkilyn · Feb 3, 2021

Magnanimity said:
First, let me say that a morning walk in nature sounds wonderful! I'm a bit envious and think that this may be something I need to incorporate into my own life one day. Second, I'd like to say that I resonate with your entire post. In the event that some of my responses to you may be helpful, I offer them below. If nothing else, maybe it'll be comforting to you that I'm a fellow-wanderer that approaches Christian spirituality in a similar way to yourself! I myself am Catholic. If that raises an immediate red flag for you, then I understand. All I really mean by saying I'm Catholic is that I fall within that very vast umbrella of Catholic Christianity, which includes very traditional folks and very progressive ones. I can't say that I self-identify as progressive or liberal (although if you were to poll most of my political opinions, you'd likely say--definitely progressive!) I avoid the labeling because I abhor the tribing-up that humans too often do. I'd rather look for that which is true, good and beautiful in all perspectives. Reality itself (to say nothing of an infinite God) is so vast and inexhaustible that it's impossible that any one group would reach the end of things. That is to say, it's impossible to do much more than scratch the surface of the Real with one's worldview. For my money, that's what we're all doing here--just tinkering away at whatever surface of the Diamond that we stumbled upon.

Oh, absolutely! One of my favorite understandings that I happened upon a few years ago was just how different the early church fathers and mothers approached our sacred writings. Allegorical and spiritual readings of the texts were rampant. In 1993, the Pontifical Biblical Commission put it this way:

"Recourse to allegory stems also from the conviction that the Bible, as God's book, was given by God to his people, the church. In principle, there is nothing in it which is to be set aside as out of date or completely lacking meaning. God is constantly speaking to his Christian people a message that is ever relevant for their time. In their explanations of the Bible, the fathers mix and weave together typological and allegorical interpretations in a virtually inextricable way. But they do so always for a pastoral and pedagogical purpose, convinced that everything that has been written has been written for our instruction (cf. 1 Cor. 10:11).

Convinced that they are dealing with the Book of God and therefore with something of inexhaustible meaning, the fathers hold that any particular passage is open to any particular interpretation on an allegorical basis. But they also consider that others are free to offer something else, provided only that what is offered respects the analogy of faith.

The allegorical interpretation of Scripture so characteristic of patristic exegesis runs the risk of being something of an embarrassment to people today. But the experience of the church expressed in this exegesis makes a contribution that is always useful (cf. Divino Afflante Spiritu, 31-32; Dei Verbum, 23). The fathers of the church teach to read the Bible theologically, within the heart of a living tradition, with an authentic Christian spirit."

I would say that we today should be much more like our spiritual fathers and mothers in the faith. We should believe that the sacred writings are effectively inexhaustible in their richness. So, instead of ever asking ourselves, "what is the one and only meaning in this text?" the more appropriate question might be, "what is a true reading of this text, in harmony with the broader spirit and mind of the church throughout the ages that testifies to Christ who is himself the Word of God?" Just a thought.

Are you familiar with the life of St Francis of Assisi? In 2015, Pope Francis (whose namesake is from this famous saint) put it like this in his letter laudato si:

"Saint Francis, faithful to Scripture, invites us to see nature as a magnificent book in which God speaks to us and grants us a glimpse of his infinite beauty and goodness. “Through the greatness and the beauty of creatures one comes to know by analogy their maker” (Wis 13:5); indeed, “his eternal power and divinity have been made known through his works since the creation of the world” (Rom 1:20). For this reason, Francis asked that part of the friary garden always be left untouched, so that wild flowers and herbs could grow there, and those who saw them could raise their minds to God, the Creator of such beauty.[21] Rather than a problem to be solved, the world is a joyful mystery to be contemplated with gladness and praise."

I'm not bringing up Catholic theology or quoting Catholics for any other reason than to show you fellow wanderers who agree with you and resonate with your spirituality. I want you to know that, not only are you not alone in your convictions here, but rather you have prominent Christian voices from the present and past who deeply sympathize with you!

Believe me, I know the feeling. I've had many online conversations over the years with fundamentalists (religious ones and non-religious). I recently came over from the now-defunct Catholic Answers Forums. I encountered fundamentalists there from 2004-2020. It's always frustrating. The fundamentalist has taken his particular vantage point of the Diamond (Reality) and declared that that is all there is to the vast Diamond. It's all he can see of the Diamond, and he somehow draws the conclusion that all he can see is necessarily all there is to see. Fundamentalism is a deep error, but I sympathize with why such folks exist. Humans are drawn toward simplicity. Nuance and complexity and forcing our minds-hearts to stretch beyond our comfort zones is hard, spiritual work. For some of us (like me!) it's work that spreads out over years and years.

I think so. Some years ago a well-known atheist philosopher of religion named Antony Flew eventually came to believe that some of the arguments for the existence of God were likely correct. As in, for him, it became more likely than not that a deity exists, even though most of his life had been spent arguing against the existence of God. But, that's about where it stopped for him. He didn't really align himself with a religious/spiritual tradition. He came to believe in God. But, did he believe God? Did he open himself up to that depth of himself at which God is ever reaching out to each individual human--his conscience? I don't know. Maybe not. So, there is something different about those folks who merely believe in God as opposed to being really open to God's presence from moment to moment to moment.

I think you're right. It shouldn't be that way, and our infinite God of love who is pure actuality itself (as St Thomas Aquinas would put it) surely isn't shallow either. If anything, there is nothing more expansive, all-encompassing and all-embracing than God.

Thank you for this beautiful post!

I always thought that if I had been Catholic, I would be a Franciscan.

The diamond analogy you brought up reminds me of that story I've heard a couple or three times where people are blind or blindfolded and are brought into the presence of an elephant and asked to identify what it is. Someone feels the elephant's legs and believes it is a tree, another feels the trunk and believes it is a snake, and so on.

No one sees or comprehends the whole elephant, and yet what they are all feeling or sensing or hearing was a true experience for them.

Magnanimity · Feb 4, 2021

bekkilyn said:
I always thought that if I had been Catholic, I would be a Franciscan

That’s great! I have similar thoughts—if I had dedicated myself to a celibate life, I might have been a Franciscan. I love this quote about St Francis from GK Chesterton,

Now for St. Francis nothing was ever in the background. We might say that his mind had no background, except perhaps that divine darkness out of which the divine love had called up every colored creature one by one. He saw everything as dramatic, distinct from its setting, not all of a piece like a picture but in action like a play.

bekkilyn said:
people are blind or blindfolded and are brought into the presence of an elephant and asked to identify what it is. Someone feels the elephant's legs and believes it is a tree, another feels the trunk and believes it is a snake, and so on.

No one sees or comprehends the whole elephant, and yet what they are all feeling or sensing or hearing was a true experience for them.

Precisely, that’s just the type of analogy I was going for. God, being infinite, and even reality itself being so utterly vast and deep when contrasted with the finitude of our individual minds pretty much necessarily entails this scratching at the surface. Spiritual types are prone to take wide and long views of reality, but even we are so limited that humility must be an ongoing protection that we keep in place as a check to any inclination we may ever have to say to others, “hey, look over here, I just figured it all out! I’ve reached the final answer to the final question.”

Nice to have met you, fellow-wanderer.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 4, 2021

One of my nicknames in my neighborhood is St. Francis. Who was he and what was he known for?

SkyWriting · Feb 21, 2021

Tree of Life said:
This is why I oppose affirming homosexuality. To do so would be to do exactly as you've said - to exclude them from the kingdom and to stunt their path of salvation.

Because God calls people to keep promises, commitments,
and building up our neighbors, we should do that instead.

SkyWriting · Feb 21, 2021

Tree of Life said:
How do you know what God is like?
It would indeed be wrong to "[exclude] various sorts of people from their full participation in God's Kingdom and [stunt] their path of salvation."
This is why I oppose affirming homosexuality. To do so would be to do exactly as you've said - to exclude them from the kingdom and to stunt their path of salvation.

One of the characteristics Jesus had was spending time with the "worst sinners" of the day and he treated them all as normal people and was not drawn to them or offended by them. He held that people had no "high" standing or "low" standing. Because Paul never SAW how Jesus treated people, he never understood this correctly.

PloverWing · Feb 21, 2021

SkyWriting said:
Because Paul never SAW how Jesus treated people, he never understood this correctly.

That's an interesting observation, and I'd never thought of it: that Paul, for all of his genuinely wonderful theological insights, probably never got to watch Jesus interacting with people.

2PhiloVoid · Feb 21, 2021

SkyWriting said:
One of the characteristics Jesus had was spending time with the "worst sinners" of the day and he treated them all as normal people and was not drawn to them or offended by them. He held that people had no "high" standing or "low" standing. Because Paul never SAW how Jesus treated people, he never understood this correctly.

Peter saw it, but I'm not sure how well or how quickly his having seen Jesus in this way actually helped him to 'understand' correctly how to treat people ...

In fact, on one at least one occasion, it seems that Peter had to have an intercession that was provided by Paul...

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