A Definition of Salvation

Michie · Feb 3, 2021

public hermit said:
That's understandable. Your response kind of caught me off guard. I should have considered the possibility. Thank you anyway. I always appreciate your input.

Thank you public hermit. I do not like to step on others toes which is usually why I keep my opinions to myself and just put info out there. Thank you for your kindness.

Carl Emerson · Feb 3, 2021

public hermit said:
Every element of that definition can be found in John 14:15-17 and John 15:1-11. So, why is it not biblical?

I said it was MORE mystical than biblical.

zippy2006 · Feb 3, 2021

public hermit said:
Good points, as always. As far as loving as God loves, "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you" John 15:12. Would that capture the questionable part of the definition?

This is a big topic, and there are various opinions, but I don't think that verse can be used to defend the claim that we are to love as God loves. The verse is found in the context of Jesus' image of the vine and the branches, an image which is in fact very much in line with 1 John 4:19. To be a bit scholastic, it depends on how we interpret the word "as" in the two phrases. I think the Biblical way to interpret it is not univocally, but rather in a "participative" way. That is, we do not love as God loves per se, but rather we participate in God's own love and love in a way that imitates or reflects his love. If that is what Gutierrez meant, then it would be acceptable, but to use the phrase in isolation and with no nuance would be problematic. Even Jesus does not use that sort of language in isolation. He even rebukes it at times, such as in Luke 18:19.

Carl Emerson · Feb 3, 2021

public hermit said:
Okay, so it lacks something. I can understand that. By the way, that last line you wrote is pretty hilarious to me. "Kinky faith"

Gotta keep it light !!!

Carl Emerson · Feb 3, 2021

The most supportive reference is John 17:21.

GDL · Feb 3, 2021

public hermit said:
"To be saved is to reach the fullness of love; it is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity; it is to love as God loves."

I actually think this is very good. We're certainly undergoing a process in Salvation and "perfected love" is certainly a goal. He is love (1John4:8, 16) and becoming like Him is part of our Salvation. Paul certainly prays such for us:

NKJ 1 John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

NKJ 1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

NKJ 1 John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

NKJ Ephesians 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height--19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

NKJ Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you

Having Christ formed in us would seem to include His vast love.

public hermit · Feb 3, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I said it was MORE mystical than biblical.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Soyeong · Feb 3, 2021

public hermit said:
I came across this definition of salvation and thought it a good one, but I'm curious what others think.

"To be saved is to reach the fullness of love; it is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity; it is to love as God loves." Gustavo Gutierrez from A Theology of Liberation

Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbors, so to reach the fullness of love is to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow of how he expressed his love. Our salvation is from sin an sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law, so live in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what Jesus saving us from living in disobedience to God's law looks like.

public hermit · Feb 3, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
The most supportive reference is John 17:21.

Nice. Thank you.

public hermit · Feb 3, 2021

GDL said:
I actually think this is very good. We're certainly undergoing a process in Salvation and "perfected love" is certainly a goal. He is love (1John4:8, 16) and becoming like Him is part of our Salvation. Paul certainly prays such for us:

NKJ 1 John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

NKJ 1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

NKJ 1 John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

NKJ Ephesians 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height--19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

NKJ Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you

Having Christ formed in us would seem to include His vast love.

Wow, very helpful references. Thank you.

public hermit · Feb 3, 2021

zippy2006 said:
To be a bit scholastic, it depends on how we interpret the word "as" in the two phrases. I think the Biblical way to interpret it is not univocally, but rather in a "participative" way. That is, we do not love as God loves per se, but rather we participate in God's own love and love in a way that imitates or reflects his love

That's helpful. Thank you.

2PhiloVoid · Feb 3, 2021

public hermit said:
I came across this definition of salvation and thought it a good one, but I'm curious what others think.

"To be saved is to reach the fullness of love; it is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity; it is to love as God loves." Gustavo Gutierrez from A Theology of Liberation

Hey PH!

Since I'm not familiar with Gustavo Gutierrez, the quote you've provided could be a good definition, but I'd hedge just a little by saying that I'd have to know more about his theology on the whole and that his definition is but one way to define a state of salvation without necessarily saying it is 'the' way to define it.

If I went with the quote alone and assumed that the rest of his theology is copacetic, my gut feeling is we'd be kicking ourselves if we didn't affirm that a "Circle of Charity" should be a part of our personal transformation in Christ in this life.

But, what do I know?

GDL · Feb 3, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
But, what do I know?

Quite a bit from what I've seen.

public hermit · Feb 3, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
Hey PH!

Since I'm not familiar with Gustavo Gutierrez, the quote you've provided could be a good definition, but I'd hedge just a little by saying that I'd have to know more about his theology on the whole and that his definition is but one way to define a state of salvation without necessarily saying it is 'the' way to define it.

If I went with the quote alone and assumed that the rest of his theology is copacetic, my gut feeling is we'd be kicking ourselves if we didn't affirm that a "Circle of Charity" should be a part of our personal transformation in Christ in this life.

But, what do I know?

I got the quote from an anthology on Christian love (Christian Love: How Christians Through The Ages Have Understood Love by Bernard V. Brady). It's not even about salvation, but this one quote popped out at me.

I have some familiarity with his theology and share some of the misgivings that have already been stated. Perhaps I'm unique in being able to take things completely out of context, lol.

No, I get it. Context matters. If I would have felt good about it, I would have thrown it out there without attribution. But, alas, my old profs would reach around the corner and slap the back of my head for plagiarism! ^_^

2PhiloVoid · Feb 3, 2021

public hermit said:
I got the quote from an anthology on Christian love (Christian Love: How Christians Through The Ages Have Understood Love by Bernard V. Brady). It's not even about salvation, but this one quote popped out at me.

I have some familiarity with his theology and share some of the misgivings that have already been stated. Perhaps I'm unique in being able to take things completely out of context, lol.

No, I get it. Context matters. If I would have felt good about it, I would have thrown it out there without attribution. But, alas, my old profs would reach around the corner and slap the back of my head for plagiarism!

I suppose one couldn't go too far astray by tapping into an anthology dealing with Christian love through the ages ... You definitely chose a nice quote for us to think about, PH, and I'd have to say that I'm thankful for the fact that your professors didn't let you get away with much. ^_^

Halbhh · Feb 3, 2021

"... Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. "

public hermit said:
I came across this definition of salvation and thought it a good one, but I'm curious what others think.

"To be saved is to reach the fullness of love; it is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity; it is to love as God loves." Gustavo Gutierrez from A Theology of Liberation

Halbhh · Feb 3, 2021

public hermit said:
I came across this definition of salvation and thought it a good one, but I'm curious what others think.

"To be saved is to reach the fullness of love; it is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity; it is to love as God loves." Gustavo Gutierrez from A Theology of Liberation

Maybe if we look at a few angles, we see more things. .... Do you sometimes hear stories at your church about things that happened? One fun story I heard a while back in our church in some bible study group: A new pastor before beginning at a church shows up unannounced and incognito 1 week early for a sunday service, dressed as a bum, to see what would happen. His clothes and hair are disorderly. He sits in the back. Will the people welcome him? Right? heh, have you heard a story like this? No doubt some versions of it have happened. It would be fun to actually talk with someone in a church where that happened, right? What is your own expectation of what would happen? I know, right, someone may try to greet him, or worst case, what if he got ejected (but that would be a bad outcome), anyway, as you might recognize that passage above is from the first letter of Jhn, and what do you think it means if anyone says anything that basically is against it? I think it means they are not there yet. So, probably the ones that need the most help of all are some of those that are the best in dress, or have put everyone into pigeonholes. What can we do? Perhaps tell them the gospel. What do you think is the best thing to do for them?

public hermit · Feb 3, 2021

Halbhh said:
Maybe if we look at a few angles, we see more things. .... Do you sometimes hear stories at your church about things that happened? One fun story I heard a while back in our church in some bible study group: A new pastor before beginning at a church shows up unannounced and incognito 1 week early for a sunday service, dressed as a bum, to see what would happen. His clothes and hair are disorderly. He sits in the back. Will the people welcome him? Right? heh, have you heard a story like this? No doubt some versions of it have happened. It would be fun to actually talk with someone in a church where that happened, right? What is your own expectation of what would happen? I know, right, someone may try to greet him, or worst case, what if he got ejected (but that would be a bad outcome), anyway, as you might recognize that passage above is from the first letter of Jhn, and what do you think it means if anyone says anything that basically is against it? I think it means they are not there yet. So, probably the ones that need the most help of all are some of those that are the best in dress, or have put everyone into pigeonholes. What can we do? Perhaps tell them the gospel. What do you think is the best thing to do for them?

I have heard a similar story, but it didn't go as one would hope. In the version I heard the pastor sat in the front and an usher asked him to leave, assuming he was homeless.

What can we do with those who would basically speak against the radical love of Christ? I don't know, except love them too, lol.

Michie · Feb 3, 2021

We have homeless come to our Masses and even sit inside the Church all day. I’d be appalled if any of them were ever asked to leave. I have attended many churches and never once seen such an episode.

public hermit · Feb 3, 2021

Michie said:
We have homeless come to our Masses and even sit inside the Church all day. I’d be appalled if any of them were ever asked to leave. I have attended many churches and never once seen such an episode.

It is an unbelievable story. I wonder if it actually happened, or if it's used to make a point.

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