A Definition of Salvation

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I came across this definition of salvation and thought it a good one, but I'm curious what others think.

"To be saved is to reach the fullness of love; it is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity; it is to love as God loves." Gustavo Gutierrez from A Theology of Liberation
 

Michie

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I came across this definition of salvation and thought it a good one, but I'm curious what others think.

"To be saved is to reach the fullness of love; it is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity; it is to love as God loves." Gustavo Gutierrez from A Theology of Liberation

It’s liberation theology which has a myriad of problems. So in those terms, yes I think it’s false. We can do all we can to help the poor but there is not going to be any perfect kingdom here on earth. Jesus said the poor would always be with us. This theology tends to ignore the realties He spoke about.
 
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Michie

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I came across this definition of salvation and thought it a good one, but I'm curious what others think.

"To be saved is to reach the fullness of love; it is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity; it is to love as God loves." Gustavo Gutierrez from A Theology of Liberation

It’s liberation theology which has a myriad of problems. So in those terms, yes I think it’s false. We can do all we can to help the poor but there is not going to be any perfect kingdom here on earth. Jesus said the poor would always be with us. This theology tends to ignore the realties He spoke about.
 
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Carl Emerson

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John 17 speaks of this unity and it is meant to be part of our evangelism.

We are light years away from this aim unfortunately.

I guess the reticence I have is that Salvation is a much bigger story and the statement in isolation would open the door for all sorts of kinky faith...
 
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Michie

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In the early 1970s, Gutiérrez gave a controversial lecture in Córdoba, Argentina upon being invited by the Movement of Priests for the Third World.[33] He refused to speak unless Father Jerónimo Podestá - a fellow liberation theologian who, unlike Gutiérrez, fought for the right of priests to marry - left the room.[33]Years after, Podestá's widow and fellow critic of mandatory celibacywithin the church, Clelia Luro deemed Guiterrez's attitude towards the issue to be discriminatory, criticizing him in the following letter:

Dear Gustavo,
I am Clelia Luro, the partner of Jerónimo Podestá, if you remember? You came to Córdoba for a Movement of Priests for the Third World talk. Jerónimo had been invited for the first time by Marimichi. He went to Córdoba very happy, this having been the first time the Priests invited him. The next day Jerónimo came back home. I asked him what happened, and he answered "Gustavo didn’t want to start if I was in the room", without hiding any pain. I thought, "liberation Theology, what liberation did he offer?” The clerical liberation of false values? And I pitied you. I know you also behaved the same way towards Leonardo Boff, the best theologian the Church has today. Last Saturday Francis called me, and I reminded him of that incident, and he replied that he remembered because I had already told him back when he was still our Cardinal Bergoglio. Gustavo, if liberation theology leads us to judge our brothers, we would have to liberate ourselves from that theology.

Clelia Luro[33]

In 1984, the Holy See - under Pope John Paul II - criticised aspects of liberation theology, taking particular issue with its use of Marxist economic theory. Then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger asked Peruvian bishops to examine Guiterrez's writings,[17]voicing concerns that Gutierrez's arguments embodied a concerning "idealization of faith".[17] As a result, he and liberation theology were the subjects of 36-page Vatican report, which declared Marxism to be incompatible with Catholic teachings.[17] The Catholic Church in Peru then held a vote to rebuke Gutiérrez's ordination within the group, which ended in a tie.[17]

According to Arthur McGovern, controversy regarding Gutiérrez and liberation theology was not limited to the Catholic Church: the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal printed full-scale advertisements warning readers of a potential communist state in Mexico, arguing that "liberation theology… [would] install Communism in the name of Christianity" and encourage acts of terrorism.[28]

Gustavo Gutiérrez - Wikipedia
 
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It’s liberation theology which has a myriad of problems. So in those terms, yes I think it’s false. We can do all we can to help the poor but there is not going to be any perfect kingdom here on earth. Jesus said the poor would always be with us. This theology tends to ignore the realties He spoke about.

Ah, the one who said it and his theology is not to your liking. Be that as it may, it is irrelevant. The statement stands on its own. This thread is not about liberation theology. It's about the particular definition in the OP. Ad hominem considerations to the side, do you think it is false?
 
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In the early 1970s, Gutiérrez gave a controversial lecture in Córdoba, Argentina upon being invited by the Movement of Priests for the Third World.[33] He refused to speak unless Father Jerónimo Podestá - a fellow liberation theologian who, unlike Gutiérrez, fought for the right of priests to marry - left the room.[33]Years after, Podestá's widow and fellow critic of mandatory celibacywithin the church, Clelia Luro deemed Guiterrez's attitude towards the issue to be discriminatory, criticizing him in the following letter:

Dear Gustavo,
I am Clelia Luro, the partner of Jerónimo Podestá, if you remember? You came to Córdoba for a Movement of Priests for the Third World talk. Jerónimo had been invited for the first time by Marimichi. He went to Córdoba very happy, this having been the first time the Priests invited him. The next day Jerónimo came back home. I asked him what happened, and he answered "Gustavo didn’t want to start if I was in the room", without hiding any pain. I thought, "liberation Theology, what liberation did he offer?” The clerical liberation of false values? And I pitied you. I know you also behaved the same way towards Leonardo Boff, the best theologian the Church has today. Last Saturday Francis called me, and I reminded him of that incident, and he replied that he remembered because I had already told him back when he was still our Cardinal Bergoglio. Gustavo, if liberation theology leads us to judge our brothers, we would have to liberate ourselves from that theology.

Clelia Luro[33]

In 1984, the Holy See - under Pope John Paul II - criticised aspects of liberation theology, taking particular issue with its use of Marxist economic theory. Then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger asked Peruvian bishops to examine Guiterrez's writings,[17]voicing concerns that Gutierrez's arguments embodied a concerning "idealization of faith".[17] As a result, he and liberation theology were the subjects of 36-page Vatican report, which declared Marxism to be incompatible with Catholic teachings.[17] The Catholic Church in Peru then held a vote to rebuke Gutiérrez's ordination within the group, which ended in a tie.[17]

According to Arthur McGovern, controversy regarding Gutiérrez and liberation theology was not limited to the Catholic Church: the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal printed full-scale advertisements warning readers of a potential communist state in Mexico, arguing that "liberation theology… [would] install Communism in the name of Christianity" and encourage acts of terrorism.[28]

Gustavo Gutiérrez - Wikipedia

Please, this thread is not about a person or his theology. It's about the definition.
 
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This is more a Mystical than Biblical definition

Every element of that definition can be found in John 14:15-17 and John 15:1-11. So, why is it not biblical?
 
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Michie

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Ah, the one who said it and his theology is not to your liking. Be that as it may, it is irrelevant. The statement stands on its own. This thread is not about liberation theology. It's about the particular definition in the OP. Ad hominem considerations to the side, do you think it is false?
I did not engage in ad hominem considerations. I gave you info concerning his work within my own church. Yes I think it’s false because it relies on works instead of grace. Grace does not give one license to sin and does not excuse us from helping the less fortunate but his view is based on his teachings, it relies more on the secular version of things.

Jesus taught us to love our neighbor as ourselves and to care for the poor. Liberation theology does much to bring those issues to the forefront. However, the problem with liberation theology is that it distorts the Gospel message from one of salvation and transformation to mere social work.

Authentic Christianity declares that Jesus Christ died for sin and offers us new life through grace. Liberation theology has a tendency to focus on reforming unjust earthly systems with only secondary regard for the sins of the individuals involved. We need to remember that Jesus died so that we might have eternal life, not just better access to social programs. What good are all the social programs in the world if we are still slaves to sin? And how can those social programs not be abused by those who control them if they are still ruled by original sin?

So in what context was that statement said? I assume it was through the lense of liberation theology.
 
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he statement in isolation would open the door for all sorts of kinky faith.

Okay, so it lacks something. I can understand that. By the way, that last line you wrote is pretty hilarious to me. "Kinky faith"
 
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Michie

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Okay, so it lacks something. I can understand that. By the way, that last line you wrote is pretty hilarious to me. "Kinky faith"
Great band name.
 
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So I. What context was that statement said? I assume it was through the lense of liberation theology

Seriously, I appreciate your concerns, some of which I share. If I wanted to create a thread on liberation theology I would have. As stated, I'm interested in that particular definition. I cited the source, only to give credit, not to expand the topic.
 
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Michie

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Seriously, I appreciate your concerns, some of which I share. If I wanted to create a thread on liberation theology I would have. As stated, I'm interested in that particular definition. I cited the source, only to give credit, not to expand the topic.
So it does not matter in what context the statement was said yet you mention his book. Okay, I’m out. Thanks for the hospitality. :wave:
 
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So it does not matter in what context the statement was said. Okay, I’m out. Thanks for the hospitality. :wave:

You don't have to leave. :( Can't you consider the statement on its own?
 
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zippy2006

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I came across this definition of salvation and thought it a good one, but I'm curious what others think.

"To be saved is to reach the fullness of love; it is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity; it is to love as God loves." Gustavo Gutierrez from A Theology of Liberation

It is not a bad starting point, but a difficulty arises insofar as it seems to envisage a point where humans definitively reach the fullness of love and love as God loves. First, I'm not sure there is a fullness or limit of love for humans, and even if there is, salvation would apparently occur before this. That is, salvation and perfection are not the same thing. Secondly, I'm not sure if humans are supposed to love as God loves. For example, "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Maybe we are, maybe we aren't, but the simple claim without any nuance is problematic.

Michie's point colors the discussion because Gutierrez was not writing in a vacuum or attempting to give systematic, overarching definitions. The claim probably makes more sense in the context of his book and his project, but as a standalone definition of salvation it is strained. In that sense the simpler formulation would be much more apt, "To be saved is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity."
 
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Michie

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You don't have to leave. :( Can't you consider the statement on its own?
No. Admittedly, I’m biased. I guess I could if I was not familiar with his work. Not all of it bad at but his statements are tainted with this brand of theology in my view. The statement needs context but the title of his book answered that. I’m sorry. :(
 
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It is not a bad starting point, but a difficulty arises insofar as it seems to envisage a point where humans definitively reach the fullness of love and love as God loves. First, I'm not sure there is a fullness or limit of love for humans, and even if there is, salvation would apparently occur before this. That is, salvation and perfection are not the same thing. Secondly, I'm not sure if humans are supposed to love as God loves. For example, "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Maybe we are, maybe we aren't, but the simple claim without any nuance is problematic.

Michie's point colors the discussion because Gutierrez was not writing in a vacuum or attempting to give systematic, overarching definitions. The claim probably makes more sense in the context of his book and his project, but as a standalone definition of salvation it is strained. In that sense the simpler formulation would be much more apt, "To be saved is to enter into the circle of charity which unites the three Persons of the Trinity."

Good points, as always. As far as loving as God loves, "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you" John 15:12. Would that capture the questionable part of the definition?
 
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No. Admittedly, I’m biased. I guess I could if I was not familiar with his work. Not all of it bad at but his statements are tainted with this brand of theology in my view. The statement needs context but the title of his book answered that. I’m sorry. :(

That's understandable. Your response kind of caught me off guard. I should have considered the possibility. Thank you anyway. I always appreciate your input.
 
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