A Great Nation is a Compassionate Nation

98cwitr · Feb 2, 2021

rjs330 said:
I'm confused, do you think the church and charity should be the only ones taking care of the poor? Should no tax dollars be spent on helping the poor?

Idealistically, yes. To love our neighbor as ourselves, I'd advocate to not see the fruits of their labors stripped from them via the 16th amendment; unless of course the US is to become a theocracy.

The poor in this country aren't really poor.

I agree, but there are times where people go hungry, or are fixing to lose their home, or get evicted, or have their power shut off, loss of transportation, etc. etc. We should help them directly and prevent those things, when they don't have the means to, from happening and encourage them to remediate whatever issues got them there in the first place. The government doesn't do these things already. A lot of health related issues can be resolved via a change of lifestyle. Gratification of the flesh can be construed as gluttony. What is the government doing to resolve this? Nothing. In fact, the problem is exacerbated in places like Oregon who just legalized many recreational drugs. How is that compassionate at all to enable people to destroy their own lives? Sure, it gives the freedom of choice, and at a fundamental libertarian/liberal (think libleft) level, that is viewed as a good thing because people aren't locked up for possession. The sword is indeed double-edged.

Most of the poor here have all they really need. And most of the poor are out of poverty after 25 years old. So there are some that remain poor after 25 sometimes due to no fault of their own. They may have disabilities or illness that prevents them from working and we should be doing all we can to help them.

On the contrary, our church has aided many who are in their 30s, many with children, who were on the verge of homelessness and that was avoided via God's Love and providential care. Instead of just handing them money, the church paid the past due bills (forgiveness of debt...as it could be seen) and helped with resume creation, better employment, and providing child care while the parent(s) sought better employment. God gets people off of welfare via His workers on earth. Secular government doesn't do these things.

To the point of the OP, A Nation is not its government, especially when the nation is made up of faithful people and the government is derided as being a faithless, secular institution (and by design).

rjs330 · Feb 2, 2021

rambot said:
And they happenned to have talent and skills (or just the luck of a "good idea").

I'd argue that it may be a bit more complicated than that.
For example, how many American families right now are one missed payday away from tanking? Middle class Americans are MAKING LESS money now and the poor (which is a larger portion of the population) have even less.
A lot.

Always was and always will be the most important video on American financial health.

The poor in America are not a larger part of the population. The government says they are only 11% and that is overblown. It's remained around that for many many years. It's actually less than that. 50% of Americans are middle class. And the middle class is losing ground to what? The upper class! That's great news. Middle class Americans are moving into upper class Americans. That is great!

America Has A Poverty Problem, But Its Poor Are Better Off Today Than Ever

Most of the poor in America are those not working full time. And under the age of 25. So
11% of the population is poor. 33% of the population is under 25. So to be generous 11% of the 33% under 25 are poor. And most of them are not really poor when you add in all the government help they get.

So we are spending 75% of our countries budget on welfare programs to help a very small percentage of the population. A percentage that hasn't changed much over the years. The question has to be asked. Is it really working?

What's the goal here and is the goal being met? If not then what should we do differently. The answer certainly isnt to spend more money.

rjs330 · Feb 2, 2021

rambot said:
Like conceptually? Because there is no real hard number. Costs vary from place to place...especially in the US.

Well you said Walmart should pay a living wage. How much is that?

rjs330 · Feb 2, 2021

98cwitr said:
Idealistically, yes. To love our neighbor as ourselves, I'd advocate to not see the fruits of their labors stripped from them via the 16th amendment; unless of course the US is to become a theocracy.

I agree, but there are times where people go hungry, or are fixing to lose their home, or get evicted, or have their power shut off, loss of transportation, etc. etc. We should help them directly and prevent those things, when they don't have the means to, from happening and encourage them to remediate whatever issues got them there in the first place. The government doesn't do these things already. A lot of health related issues can be resolved via a change of lifestyle. Gratification of the flesh can be construed as gluttony. What is the government doing to resolve this? Nothing. In fact, the problem is exacerbated in places like Oregon who just legalized many recreational drugs. How is that compassionate at all to enable people to destroy their own lives? Sure, it gives the freedom of choice, and at a fundamental libertarian/liberal (think libleft) level, that is viewed as a good thing because people aren't locked up for possession. The sword is indeed double-edged.

On the contrary, our church has aided many who are in their 30s, many with children, who were on the verge of homelessness and that was avoided via God's Love and providential care. Instead of just handing them money, the church paid the past due bills (forgiveness of debt...as it could be seen) and helped with resume creation, better employment, and providing child care while the parent(s) sought better employment. God gets people off of welfare via His workers on earth. Secular government doesn't do these things.

To the point of the OP, A Nation is not its government, especially when the nation is made up of faithful people and the government is derided as being a faithless, secular institution (and by design).

I really do like your ideas. But I'm not sure there are enough of us to fix the issue. Many in the church itself need assistance.

I dare say though that if many of the charities in this country started helping people instead of other things then we might be able to help everyone.

Our church too has helped a lot of people. And I agree that the less we depend on government the better. And the the church can hold those inside the church accountable for some things. But we can't do that for those outside the church.

I mean we can't do anything about gluttony outside the church, or poor spending habits, etc.

I think some of the things your church is doing is fantastic. I love it. If every church started to participate in that, I think we could put a dent in some of the poor. However, I am skeptical that we could do enough. I don't think there are enough of us.

The government way if doing things isn't enough either. We've done it the same way for 50 years and it's still an issue. So what is being done isn't helping. Things really need to change if we are actually going to make a difference. Just throwing money at a problem is never the answer.

But I don't think some really want to fix the problem.

rambot · Feb 2, 2021

rjs330 said:
I've worked with poor people for 35 years. I know what I'm talking about.

Cool. So what was the cognitive capacity of the people you've worked with? How did the education they received help them? How did the opportunities that you had growing up differ from the experiences their children had?

Simply being exposed to people doesn't mean you know how they work. Your original quote was a small window into everything that contributes to poverty. It's hubris to think that poverty only comes from those two things.

rambot · Feb 2, 2021

rjs330 said:
Well you said Walmart should pay a living wage. How much is that?

I don't know. Where are you talking about?

Many jurisdictions have done research on what constitutes a living wage. Also, if you purport to having "worked with the poor for 34 years", this seems TRAGIC for you to NOT know.

rambot · Feb 2, 2021

rjs330 said:
The poor in America are not a larger part of the population. The government says they are only 11% and that is overblown. It's remained around that for many many years. It's actually less than that. 50% of Americans are middle class. And the middle class is losing ground to what? The upper class! That's great news. Middle class Americans are moving into upper class Americans. That is great!

At BEST this is not true. At worst, it's a misrepresentation of reality.
The Poverty Line Matters, But It Isn’t Capturing Everyone It Should - Center for American Progress
But let's be clear, the middle ground is NOT losing ground to the middle class.

I would feel honoured if you would take the time to watch the video I posted in a previous post. It explains income distribution much more easily than I could.

Speedwell · Feb 2, 2021

rjs330 said:
The poor in America are not a larger part of the population. The government says they are only 11% and that is overblown. It's remained around that for many many years. It's actually less than that. 50% of Americans are middle class. And the middle class is losing ground to what? The upper class! That's great news. Middle class Americans are moving into upper class Americans. That is great!

No, the middle class is not becoming part of the upper class. It's the money of the middle class that's moving towards the upper class.

Most of the poor in America are those not working full time. And under the age of 25. So
11% of the population is poor. 33% of the population is under 25. So to be generous 11% of the 33% under 25 are poor. And most of them are not really poor when you add in all the government help they get.

So we are spending 75% of our countries budget on welfare programs to help a very small percentage of the population. A percentage that hasn't changed much over the years. The question has to be asked. Is it really working?

What's the goal here and is the goal being met? If not then what should we do differently. The answer certainly isnt to spend more money.

Where did you get that number? Safety net programs run around 8% of the federal budget.

Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go?.

rambot · Feb 2, 2021

98cwitr said:
Idealistically, yes. To love our neighbor as ourselves, I'd advocate to not see the fruits of their labors stripped from them via the 16th amendment; unless of course the US is to become a theocracy.

I agree, but there are times where people go hungry, or are fixing to lose their home, or get evicted, or have their power shut off, loss of transportation, etc. etc. We should help them directly and prevent those things, when they don't have the means to, from happening and encourage them to remediate whatever issues got them there in the first place. The government doesn't do these things already. A lot of health related issues can be resolved via a change of lifestyle. Gratification of the flesh can be construed as gluttony. What is the government doing to resolve this? Nothing. In fact, the problem is exacerbated in places like Oregon who just legalized many recreational drugs. How is that compassionate at all to enable people to destroy their own lives? Sure, it gives the freedom of choice, and at a fundamental libertarian/liberal (think libleft) level, that is viewed as a good thing because people aren't locked up for possession. The sword is indeed double-edged.

On the contrary, our church has aided many who are in their 30s, many with children, who were on the verge of homelessness and that was avoided via God's Love and providential care. Instead of just handing them money, the church paid the past due bills (forgiveness of debt...as it could be seen) and helped with resume creation, better employment, and providing child care while the parent(s) sought better employment. God gets people off of welfare via His workers on earth. Secular government doesn't do these things.

To the point of the OP, A Nation is not its government, especially when the nation is made up of faithful people and the government is derided as being a faithless, secular institution (and by design).

What I am learning by hearing you and rjs discuss your experiences is that there is a wide variety to the experience of poverty with various causes and different ways of providing service.

I agree.

I think the problem becomes, as both of your also seem to suggest, is that you can't have a single aproach to dealing poverty from a "one solution" campaign.

And as I said previously, the idea that people working in government don't get people off of welfare (or that htey don't want people off of welfare) is patently absurd and based on some extremely prejudicial statements.

rambot · Feb 2, 2021

I like what AOC has to say about income inequality.

FireDragon76 · Feb 2, 2021

rjs330 said:
I've worked with poor people for 35 years. I know what I'm talking about.

That doesn't mean you have expertise into the causes of poverty. An auto mechanic might know to change the oil when it turns dirty, but that doesn't mean they have particular expertise into tribology and fluid mechanics.

Richard T · Feb 2, 2021

Kentonio said:
Amazing how so many Christians can completely ignore the overwhelming themes and morals of the bible in favour of picking out individual lines that back up their own desires. Jesus message is not a complicated one, help and show compassion to the weak and needy, show humility and give up the pursuit of worldly possessions and approach your life and your interactions with others with love instead of violence. Those three themes run pretty much from cover to cover.

If anyone reads that book and comes away thinking 'Yeah, no-one should be able to take my money!' or 'Jesus totally wants me to buy a gun!' or 'If people are poor then its because of their own poor choices, so that's not my problem!' then they really need to work on their reading comprehension skills.

So if everyone that is poor is just their bad luck and others are supposed to pick up the tab? That is not compassion. That is dependency on others. I am not saying some poor do not need help. Many are unable to help themselves, and if family can not care for them, then the church and possibly state should. Some people however, are poor due to their choices. If they for instance are unwilling to work, biblically, I have no responsibility to feed them.

Richard T · Feb 2, 2021

Andrewn said:
Was tithing a command or a voluntary sharing?

“You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt”(Ex.22:20).

“You shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the soul of the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Ex.23:9).

“The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Lev.19:34).

“You too must befriend the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Deut.10:19)

“You shall not hate an Egyptian, for you were stranger in his land” (Deut.23:8).

“Always remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt; therefore do I enjoin you to observe this commandment” (Deut. 24:22)

Thank you for the list of scriptures dealing with foreigners living among us. However, God has given nations authority to restrict movement between borders. So while I respect all people and wish to treat all decently, if they are illegal there is nothing wrong with deporting them. For instance, those that came here from an illegal crossing or overstayed their visa. I may add that some refugees are protected and should not be sent back when their lives are in physical danger.

Richard T · Feb 2, 2021

rambot said:
But you are looking at it as an ACTION and not as a MINDSET. I think that is where we differ. My desire to help the poor is my desire to help the poor. I do that by advocating by contributing through my church, by volunteering and working with that population, and by advocating that my tax dollars are used to help the poor.

The Bible never tells us what kind of government to have so that point is beyond moot. The Bible also doesn't tell us to have a government that outlaws homosexuality OR abortion and yet here we are. Right wingers will argue that the government NEEDS to intervene to stop abortions but it's certainly not outlined in the Bible anywhere.

So then what? Well, as a CHRISTIAN, what do you want your tax dollars to go towards? As a Christian, should your tax dollars go towards a wall keeping poor people away or should it go to a soup kitchen to help hte poor in your community?

This argument is soooooooooo weak dude.
If you buy health insurance you are providing for other people's needs.
I mean, you KNOW that right. You know that insurance schemes ALL work this way. YOu KNOW this. Your insurance payments pay for other people's work.
So take another kick at that can.
You are not a doctor, but you are willing to pay for SOME people to have a doctor help them, but ONLY if they have enough money.

Man, but don't you GET it?
It's not about REQUIREMENT, it's about ATTITUDE.

Again, mindset.

That is FALSE. He said anyone who doesn't WANT to work. That verse is misquoted to the extreme and then it becomes misapplied. There are many, many people who are unable to work or unable to hold down jobs. Let me know if you need some examples.

But here's the mind blower: You DON'T believe that. You don't believe in a compassionate society. You HOPE for compassionate individuals to step up. A compassionate society uses all the tools available to them to support those in need. It's not a society that says "This is how we must help people and there is no other way".

1)Have you lived on unemployment? Being on unemployment, essentially keeps you from dying for the most part.
2) So what? That some people do that is between them and their conscious. Are you going to withhold support from people in need because of a "few people you talked"?

But that attitude just seems so absurd. Still, I'm curious.
How can you ensure thta EVERYONE receive adequate health care without causing the prices you pay to explode. Your entire system is a shambles and so many stories are terrible. And single payer systems are just better. They JUST ARE. It can't be denied. Don't be affraid of that change when it comes.

Well this argument is just silly. Christ wasn't here to work with governments in ANY way! He worked to touch people, individuals. He tried to teach them that God will provide for them; that they don't need to worry "because not a hair will fall for from your head". And yet there is FEAR in people at a single payer system. There is FEAR over a food stamp program EXISTING because it may not be 100% efficient or something like 3% of cases are fraudulent.

I find it kind of humorous that right wingers expect me to think that their motives for this is altruistic "I don't want nonbelievers to help the poor. I have to but other people don't". They don't have an obligation to do that". It feels like a truly disgusting view of humanity really; that nobody has to care for anyone unless the deity you believe in requires it of you.

Out of curiousity, did you know that the fraud rate for government programs in multimillion and billion dollar outcomes is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than fraud cases amongst the poor. And yet I NEVER hear concerns about that. Why do we allow rich people to get away with it but not the poor folk? (Hint: Because rich people will drag cases through courts for decades bearing a HUGE expense to the IRS. There was an article on this a few months ago even. Poor people can't fight).

I agree and I love it and it's beautiful. And there is no ethical or logical reason to not WANT that to happen across our society.

Find me the Bible verse thta supports "Help people in need BUT they must do things to help themselves as well". A single verse that expresses both of those ideas.

I struggle to find them.

I think that this scripture would qualify an answer to how the bible does allow discrimination between those in need based on their circumstances. I Tim 5:9 No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the Lord’s people, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

The bible does not seek to create a dependency on man, instead, I think God uses lack to create a dependency on Him. This does not mean we should not share. However, we should be careful with who and how we share.

rambot · Feb 2, 2021

Richard T said:
I think that this scripture would qualify an answer to how the bible does allow discrimination between those in need based on their circumstances. I Tim 5:9 No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the Lord’s people, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

The bible does not seek to create a dependency on man, instead, I think God uses lack to create a dependency on Him. This does not mean we should not share. However, we should be careful with who and how we share.

It's distressing you think it's appropriate to consider the cultural context this came out of and your immediate thought is that "this is an appropriate point to apply to a civilization with altogether different norms 2000 years later.

I mean even the context of the verse.....it just seems outlandish to try to apply it to 2021 America

Richard T · Feb 2, 2021

rambot said:
It's distressing you think it's appropriate to consider the cultural context this came out of and your immediate thought is that "this is an appropriate point to apply to a civilization with altogether different norms 2000 years later.

I mean even the context of the verse.....it just seems outlandish to try to apply it to 2021 America

Why is that scripture outlandish? If the bible gives guidance, that guidance is timeless and always the better standard for norms than some cultural norms of a later period.

Sparagmos · Feb 2, 2021

Rene Loup said:
Prayers and talk of social justice are good but action is needed to actually make them happen.

Pray to God each day for discernment, wisdom, guidance, and protection, and then BE the change you want to see. Lead by example, don't just simply expect others to change because you have an idea that was never new under the sun to begin with.

This is coming from a Knight in Sour Armour.[1]

tvtropes.org/KnightInSourArmor - Expect some bad words in this article.

That’s what Rev. Barber and his work is all about!

Sparagmos · Feb 2, 2021

rjs330 said:
I really do like your ideas. But I'm not sure there are enough of us to fix the issue. Many in the church itself need assistance.

I dare say though that if many of the charities in this country started helping people instead of other things then we might be able to help everyone.

Our church too has helped a lot of people. And I agree that the less we depend on government the better. And the the church can hold those inside the church accountable for some things. But we can't do that for those outside the church.

I mean we can't do anything about gluttony outside the church, or poor spending habits, etc.

I think some of the things your church is doing is fantastic. I love it. If every church started to participate in that, I think we could put a dent in some of the poor. However, I am skeptical that we could do enough. I don't think there are enough of us.

The government way if doing things isn't enough either. We've done it the same way for 50 years and it's still an issue. So what is being done isn't helping. Things really need to change if we are actually going to make a difference. Just throwing money at a problem is never the answer.

But I don't think some really want to fix the problem.

Why don’t we just look at the countries with the lowest poverty rates and do what they do? People act like we don’t know what will work, but we do.

rambot · Feb 2, 2021

Also...Compassionate?

Kentonio · Feb 3, 2021

Richard T said:
So if everyone that is poor is just their bad luck and others are supposed to pick up the tab? That is not compassion. That is dependency on others. I am not saying some poor do not need help. Many are unable to help themselves, and if family can not care for them, then the church and possibly state should. Some people however, are poor due to their choices. If they for instance are unwilling to work, biblically, I have no responsibility to feed them.

No, not everyone is poor because of luck. There are however some seriously difficult questions to answer, and making black and white statements like the one you just made try and reduce a hugely complex problem down to something overly simplistic.

A lot of people have very limited mental capabilities and a lot have actual mental issues. What do you propose we do with people like this who may find it extremely difficult to cope with the complexities of modern life? If someone with a sub 70 IQ ends up in debt because they were sold credit services they didn't understand, is that their own fault? If they lose their job and struggle to find a new one due to a competitive market is that their fault? If they end up homeless because of medical debt, is that their fault?

This idea that everything is down to 'choice' is a cancer that's eating America from the inside out. It's an illusion that makes the successful feel especially clever and allows everyone to avoid having to take responsibility for the society you've created.

Unfettered capitalism destroys society. It funnels increasing quantities of the nations resources towards a tiny fraction of the population, and vaguely hopes that those people will show some kind of morals. They don't. They never have and they never will. Either you protect the majority from the super-rich minority or else you'll have a miserable country and eventually a radical social revolution of some time that rebalances things in a way that pleases no-one.

A Great Nation is a Compassionate Nation

Lord forgive me

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