Your thoughts on the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17

Matt5

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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

Let's start with a list of countries that you hate. The Mystery Babylon will likely be at or near the top. Is Iran there?

Let's see how Iran drinks the blood of the saints and then gets what it deserves:

'Yoma 10a in the Talmud – “Rabbi Yochanan said in the name of Rabbi Yehuda in the name of Rabbi Ilayi: In the time to come, Rome will fall at the hands of Persia.”' - https://goo.gl/B2YrY7

Notice that Muslims are already talking about conquering Rome: Al-Aqsa Mosque Address: We Will Conquer Rome | MEMRI Al-Aqsa Mosque Address: We Will Soon Establish the Caliphate, Liberate Jerusalem and Conquer Rome

Palestinian preacher Nidhal "Abu Ibrahim" Siam spoke before the crowd and said that the anniversary of the fall of Constantinople brings tidings that Rome will be conquered in the near future. He said that three prophecies will soon be fulfilled, and he expressed hope that his audience will be the ones to fulfil them. Siam elaborated that these prophecies are the prophecy that a rightly-guided Caliphate will be established, the prophecy that Jerusalem will be liberated and established as the capital of the Caliphate, and the prophecy that Islam "will throw its neighbors to the ground" and that its reach will span across the world.


Iran nukes Rome via nuclear terrorism, and then the retaliation comes to Iran (Persia) after 9 months. The retaliation from Nato is also nuclear.

Rabbi Yonasan Eibshetz (1690-1764) in his book Ya’arot Dvash – “At a certain moment the time will come when the Messiah should have already arrived but the redemption has not yet come. The Messiah will ask how it could be that the time for redemption has arrived and he still undergoes sufferings? The response that he will receive is that he must wait for nine months. Why? In order to wait for the fall of Persia (Iran) at the hands of Edom (the Christian West), and then the final redemption will come!”

The Iranian people will be spread across the whole world as they flee destruction.

Note that the name Allah in Arabic is written on the Iranian flag. Put two crossed swords underneath and rotate 90 degrees clockwise. You get in Greek numbers: 600, 60 and 6.
 
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Berean Tim

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MYSTERY BABYLON = JERUSALEM

Let's let scripture interpret scripture:

MYSTERY BABYLON

Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]

MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt taketwo onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).
Hey !! We agreed on something LOL
 
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nolidad

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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

A brief synopsis of my view:

I am a futurist, and Pre-Millennial... I have begun to re-examine the question of Babylon because I am holding a Bible study on the book of Isaiah, and we are entering chapter 13. Even though I see good points to be made in favor of the other views I am familiar with, I find myself being fairly confident that the Babylon of Revelation will indeed be a city that is located in very close proximity, at the very least, to the historical city of Babylon in modern day Iraq. I believe this primarily because there are so many OT prophecies about ancient Babylon that have yet to be fully fulfilled, and also due in large part to Zechariah's vision of the woman in the basket in Zechariah 5:5-11... the fact that this woman called wickedness is being taken to the land of Shinar (ancient Iraq), where she will have a "house" (or temple) built for her there after the fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persian empire had already occurred, and it's proximity to the prophecy of the chariots in Zechariah 6:1-8 (which I strongly believe also gives us great insight as to how to interpret the four horsemen on Revelation 6), indicates to me (along with the many other prophecies of Babylon that are yet to be fulfilled) that the story of literal Babylon in the land of Shinar is yet to be completed. There is also a compelling symmetry to this view: immediately following the judgment of the flood, organized false religion, united with governmental authority and power, originated in Babylon (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:1-9), and it will end in Babylon immediately preceding the judgment of Christ's return.

Please remember we are Christians in all of our interactions here, but I am interested to hear both your own view and thoughtful Biblical critique of my view. May God bless every single one of you as you seek His face;
Michael


Without going into enormous detail (which if asked I will ) we must look at teh chapter to discover this cities identity.

The city is also a woman which when used symbolically always represents a religious system.

As she is the mother of all harlots- we must go back and find the first false religious system that all false religious system sprang from. and that is ancient Babylon itself.! Even today many religions still practice the mysteries that date back to Babylon. Even some sects of Christendom.

Saddam Hussein rebuilt a scale Babylon. the U.S. built a massive embassy in teh vicinity of Babylon. Many many modern and powerful buildings have been built around Babylon.

As the antichrist and the ten kings reign- Without getting into all teh details, they will reign from Babylon which will become the world capitol so to speak and the greatest city on earth during the reign of antichrist! It isf from here he marches and captures Jerusalem and then enters the holy of holies, declare himself God and commits the abomination of desolation as Jesus said in Matt. 24.

All worldly religious and political systems have roots in Nimrod, Semiramis and Babylon.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thanks for your thoughts.

No problem. Glad to help! But y'know, I've always wondered something: since Mystery, Babylon sits on the back of the Beast who has multiple heads and horns, is the Beast voluntarily carrying her, or is she instead dominating and pulling the reigns? :scratch:

This relation of roles isn't one that I've seen anyone really work out ... and so I'm left wondering.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.
Rome (as it was then and nothing to do with what it is now). I'm pan millennialist
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

A brief synopsis of my view:

I am a futurist, and Pre-Millennial... I have begun to re-examine the question of Babylon because I am holding a Bible study on the book of Isaiah, and we are entering chapter 13. Even though I see good points to be made in favor of the other views I am familiar with, I find myself being fairly confident that the Babylon of Revelation will indeed be a city that is located in very close proximity, at the very least, to the historical city of Babylon in modern day Iraq. I believe this primarily because there are so many OT prophecies about ancient Babylon that have yet to be fully fulfilled, and also due in large part to Zechariah's vision of the woman in the basket in Zechariah 5:5-11... the fact that this woman called wickedness is being taken to the land of Shinar (ancient Iraq), where she will have a "house" (or temple) built for her there after the fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persian empire had already occurred, and it's proximity to the prophecy of the chariots in Zechariah 6:1-8 (which I strongly believe also gives us great insight as to how to interpret the four horsemen on Revelation 6), indicates to me (along with the many other prophecies of Babylon that are yet to be fulfilled) that the story of literal Babylon in the land of Shinar is yet to be completed. There is also a compelling symmetry to this view: immediately following the judgment of the flood, organized false religion, united with governmental authority and power, originated in Babylon (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:1-9), and it will end in Babylon immediately preceding the judgment of Christ's return.

Please remember we are Christians in all of our interactions here, but I am interested to hear both your own view and thoughtful Biblical critique of my view. May God bless every single one of you as you seek His face;
Michael
Jerusalem
 
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Freedm

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MYSTERY BABYLON = JERUSALEM

Let's let scripture interpret scripture:

MYSTERY BABYLON

Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]

MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt taketwo onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

And I think with this thorough and definitive proof of the identity of Babylon, it is settled and this thread can now come to a close.
 
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Saint JOHN

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Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

this was near 2000 years ago ! most done;

OK as to question...

Rome the church; 1st beast dead Imperial Rome; Papal Rome takes over; on basic 7 hills; (Israel goes after other nations and Gods ;still in some ways trying to amalgamate Gods ways !! not on !) just like churches today harlots.
Ten kingdom ages types through the ages Papal Rome had great power over many governments and kingdoms and peoples and still holds sway over many; killed many true Christians.(Gods ways alright !)

harlots churches spawned from this, them with slight variations ..not true Christian at all;

read mark 16v16+

sorry don't have much time for this as mainly look to salvation.

most think believing is acceptance (to varying degrees) that God is or Jesus Christ is etc eg I believe there is a president in USA ! does that automatically mean I'm an American citizen !!?? there are protocols set up as with God.

read the book of Acts to see how they received the Holy Spirit (salvation)

still the same today...man has set up his own ways !! (many)
 
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But Iraq is the current state that contains Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon.

Is there reason to think that Babylon is literally Babylon, when the text tells us what kind of city this is (it sits on seven hills), and the beast she rides has a number of heads with crowns, representing a series of kings? In the text we read,

"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while." - Revelation 17:9-10

This would indicate that the power which is being identified, Babylon and the beast upon which she rides, existed at the time John was writing.

Babylon hadn't been a major political power for over five centuries at the time the Apocalypse was written. In fact it had been reduced to little more than a mining town at the time.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Matt5

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No problem. Glad to help! But y'know, I've always wondered something: since Mystery, Babylon sits on the back of the Beast who has multiple heads and horns, is the Beast voluntarily carrying her, or is she instead dominating and pulling the reigns? :scratch:

This relation of roles isn't one that I've seen anyone really work out ... and so I'm left wondering.

I walk through why I think the Mystery Babylon is Iran (Tehran) at the top of page 2. At the bottom of my post I mention that the name Allah in Arabic is tied to 600, 60 and 6 in Greek numbers, aka the beast. Iran has the name of Allah on its flag.

Iranian leaders have talked about hastening the arrival of the Mahdi (Antichrist.) This happens during chaos, and chaos means millions of deaths. Iran needs a nuclear arsenal to make that happen.
 
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Marilyn C

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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

A brief synopsis of my view:

I am a futurist, and Pre-Millennial... I have begun to re-examine the question of Babylon because I am holding a Bible study on the book of Isaiah, and we are entering chapter 13. Even though I see good points to be made in favor of the other views I am familiar with, I find myself being fairly confident that the Babylon of Revelation will indeed be a city that is located in very close proximity, at the very least, to the historical city of Babylon in modern day Iraq. I believe this primarily because there are so many OT prophecies about ancient Babylon that have yet to be fully fulfilled, and also due in large part to Zechariah's vision of the woman in the basket in Zechariah 5:5-11... the fact that this woman called wickedness is being taken to the land of Shinar (ancient Iraq), where she will have a "house" (or temple) built for her there after the fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persian empire had already occurred, and it's proximity to the prophecy of the chariots in Zechariah 6:1-8 (which I strongly believe also gives us great insight as to how to interpret the four horsemen on Revelation 6), indicates to me (along with the many other prophecies of Babylon that are yet to be fulfilled) that the story of literal Babylon in the land of Shinar is yet to be completed. There is also a compelling symmetry to this view: immediately following the judgment of the flood, organized false religion, united with governmental authority and power, originated in Babylon (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:1-9), and it will end in Babylon immediately preceding the judgment of Christ's return.

Please remember we are Christians in all of our interactions here, but I am interested to hear both your own view and thoughtful Biblical critique of my view. May God bless every single one of you as you seek His face;
Michael

Hi Michael,

I agree with you. Lots of good points there. probably over most people`s heads as they have been taught about the RRE (Revived Roman Empire) view.

I was taught what you have laid out, many years ago by my teachers. I have studied God`s word and watched the prophecies coming about.

I think you cover quite a lot of ground in your op and that might be too much for most people here. Any way we can discuss your good points though and be pleased that some are receiving the truth.
 
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Marilyn C

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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

Michael

So my view of Babylon.

It will be the centre of the A/C`s global government. Zech. 5: 5 - 11 reveals the economic aspect is taken to the land of Shinar, in Iraq.

The false religion (the UN`s moral laws) will be done away with, (Rev. 17: 16) by the 10 kings as there is no more use for them. They were just used to get the people of the world trying to `save the planet.`

The Political leadership of the global government is by the Assyrian, (Isa. 31:8) from the region of Iraq, Syria & Jordan. This leader will bring together these 3 and uproot them from their colonial background.

The 10 kings are -

3 - Iraq, Syria & Jordan.
7 - Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Omar, Saudi Arabia, & Yeman.
 
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Douggg

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Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.


Babylon the great has nothing to do with being an earthly city of any country. It is the antithesis of the Kingdom of Heaven.


It is the mystical - i.e. unseen - kingdom of Satan and his third of the angels that rebelled against God eons ago - before Adam and Eve.

Babylon the great represents evil, wickedness, violence that Satan and his third of the angels have trafficked in - all over the earth.
 
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Is there reason to think that Babylon is literally Babylon, when the text tells us what kind of city this is (it sits on seven hills), and the beast she rides has a number of heads with crowns, representing a series of kings? In the text we read,

"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while." - Revelation 17:9-10

This would indicate that the power which is being identified, Babylon and the beast upon which she rides, existed at the time John was writing.

Babylon hadn't been a major political power for over five centuries at the time the Apocalypse was written. In fact it had been reduced to little more than a mining town at the time.

-CryptoLutheran
"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while." - Revelation 17:9-10
The only reason for one to use the word "hills" is to identify Rome. "Mountain" is usually describing Kingdoms. As in Daniel 2:
[aj]all at the same time, and they were like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the entire earth.
With the "mountains" also being Kings this is almost a certainty. The 7 Mountains are not describing the land the Woman is seated, more likely a political confederation.
 
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Religiot

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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

A brief synopsis of my view:

I am a futurist, and Pre-Millennial... I have begun to re-examine the question of Babylon because I am holding a Bible study on the book of Isaiah, and we are entering chapter 13. Even though I see good points to be made in favor of the other views I am familiar with, I find myself being fairly confident that the Babylon of Revelation will indeed be a city that is located in very close proximity, at the very least, to the historical city of Babylon in modern day Iraq. I believe this primarily because there are so many OT prophecies about ancient Babylon that have yet to be fully fulfilled, and also due in large part to Zechariah's vision of the woman in the basket in Zechariah 5:5-11... the fact that this woman called wickedness is being taken to the land of Shinar (ancient Iraq), where she will have a "house" (or temple) built for her there after the fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persian empire had already occurred, and it's proximity to the prophecy of the chariots in Zechariah 6:1-8 (which I strongly believe also gives us great insight as to how to interpret the four horsemen on Revelation 6), indicates to me (along with the many other prophecies of Babylon that are yet to be fulfilled) that the story of literal Babylon in the land of Shinar is yet to be completed. There is also a compelling symmetry to this view: immediately following the judgment of the flood, organized false religion, united with governmental authority and power, originated in Babylon (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:1-9), and it will end in Babylon immediately preceding the judgment of Christ's return.

Please remember we are Christians in all of our interactions here, but I am interested to hear both your own view and thoughtful Biblical critique of my view. May God bless every single one of you as you seek His face;
Michael
"So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." --Revelations 17:3-18

What city is it, that reigns over the kings of the earth?

And remember, geography is not the key, for the Lord was crucified in both Egypt and Sodom.

Look to cities that have been around for thousands of years, and grow more and more in opulence: only one sticks out sore, above all others; and she does rule over the kings of the earth, to this very day.
 
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ViaCrucis

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"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while." - Revelation 17:9-10
The only reason for one to use the word "hills" is to identify Rome. "Mountain" is usually describing Kingdoms. As in Daniel 2:
[aj]all at the same time, and they were like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the entire earth.
With the "mountains" also being Kings this is almost a certainty. The 7 Mountains are not describing the land the Woman is seated, more likely a political confederation.

Showing a single passage which compares a kingdom with a mountain doesn't seem to be quite enough to establish that hills/mountains refers to kingdoms as a recurring thematic element.

It doesn't make sense to me that the angel would go out of its way to identify Babylon and the beast she rides unless John (and his readers) should be able to have been able to figure out the meaning.

This is one of the problems I have with many readings of the Apocalypse, it requires that neither the author nor the original intended audience could understand the meaning. It's the same reason why the identity of the beast in Revelation 13 is specifically said to have a name with a numerical value of six hundred and sixty-six, that's the hint, the clue, the thing to pay attention to.

"This calls for a mind with wisdom" is a way to say, "Pay attention, you can figure this out". And so the identity of the Beast, the identity of Babylon, was something John and his audience (the seven churches in Asia) know, he expects his audience to be able to figure it out.

If the identity of these things did not exist yet, then it makes no sense for John to go out of his way to say, "Pay attention here".

The Apocalypse wasn't written to us, or to some group of people living at the end of the world--it's written to Christians living in the first century, in the province of Asia.

-CyptoLutheran
 
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Douggg

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The Apocalypse wasn't written to us, or to some group of people living at the end of the world--it's written to Christians living in the first century, in the province of Asia.
...about the events regarding the return of Jesus at the time of the end. Obviously the gospel had not been spread to all nations of world in the first century.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 
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Douggg

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Hello Doug.. The Peace of Jesus, The Jewish Christ, Who is the Holy Spirit. The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature be with you.....What Part of the "NO" you didn't understand?!! The N or the O?!! No matter how much knowledge you can gather, if you do non know nor do The God of Abraham "WILL"..Nothing will matter on your side, nothing will help all that knwoledge you find, it will be like a "WAISTED TIME"..YOu will end up in hell...Is that what you want?!! Is that what you're looking forwards to??.. Brother James.....
I have no idea what your post above has to do with what I wrote in my post #37.
 
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