Original sin, yes, no, or not that important?

Davy

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I'm curious about the term "earth age" that you are using. What does that mean to you? I may be obvious, but few view it that way. I understand what most call "eternity" to be an age to come.

I go by what Peter showed in 2 Peter 3...

1. "the world that then was"
2. "the heavens and the earth, which are now"
3. "new heavens and a new earth"
 
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Aussie Pete

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I'm not accusing God. It was not our Heavenly Father's fault that He placed this present world earth age in bondage to corruption.

It's evident you don't understand what Apostle Paul was talking about in Romans 8:18-25 about God placing this present world in bondage to corruption, nor that the very first sin against Him was in the previous world earth age by Satan.

Many brethren like yourself don't understand God's Word when it points to a previous world earth age before Adam and Eve when Satan followed God and was perfect in his ways (Ezekiel 28; Ezekiel 31).

Like Apostle John said, the devil sinned from the beginning, and that is how death became a part of this present world earth age associated with the flesh. But in the world to come, after Satan, hell and the wicked go into the future "lake of fire", like Revelation 21 teaches, there will be no more death. Lord Jesus was sent not just to conquer death for us, but also the one who has the power of death, the devil (Hebrews 2:14-15).

So Adam and Eve just being made flesh was into a state of corrupted flesh, for like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

But today, many are being lied to about the flesh so that they tend to think flesh is part of Christ's salvation. It is not our flesh that is saved by Lord Jesus, it is our spirit.
I know about Satan's rebellion (Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28). I know too that God made Adam neutral. He was not a sinner but he could choose to obey God or not.

I do not take the term "Original Sin" (neither do I use it myself) as meaning Adam was the first sinner. Satan gets that dubious distinction. The root of sin is disobedience. Unbelievers are called "sons of disobedience". (Colossians 3:6, Ephesians 2:2 & 3, Ephesians 5:6).

It seems plain to me that all unbelievers are subject to the law of sin and death. A law is a repeating principle. It can only be overturned by a different principle or by repealing the law. God's law has never been repealed, but it has been superseded. That's because God's law failed to bring about a change of heart in the people subject to it.

King David knew God's law intimately. Yet he sinned in ways that should have had him killed. What was his response? Oh Lord, give me a better law? No! Give me a different heart.

Ezekiel 36:24-27 "For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all the countries, and I will bring you back into your own land. I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances."

This applies to literal Israel. However, physical Israel is no different from the rest of the descendants of Adam. All men need a new heart. That;s because they are born with a defective heart. It's not even that they cannot obey God's laws. It's very simply that they will not. (Deuteronomy 30:14)

The thing that interests me most is how blind men are to their condition. One of the worst times in Israel's history is recorded in Judges 17:6. "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes." People are so depraved that they can't even see that they are doing anything wrong. That is not learned behaviour. It is in the heart of man from birth.
 
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Aussie Pete

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I would rather say, we are born to death and are dying here. We are not yet dead, because death is a slow process, but we are slowly dying every day in here.[/QUOTE
That's not what the Bible says. If you are talking physical death, sure. But God said that the day you eat of the tree of good and evil, you will surely die. Adam and Eve did not slowly drift away from God. They immediately hid from God and tried to cover up. Then they began the "it's not my fault" blame game that humans excel at. They were still active in the soul realm, but they were spiritually dead. The is the part of us that is born again and that is what it means to be made alive. The new spirit is where Lord Jesus lives so that we may live the life that pleases God.

As Paul says, the outward man is decaying but we are being renewed inwardly day by day. (2 Corinthians 4:16) I'm nearly 70, so I am well aware of the ageing process!
 
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TedT

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My view is that there is a great deal of support for the idea that people are born sinners. Much of Romans 5 can be seen as supporting the concept of original sin.
Yes, I agree. People are born as sinners and even conceived as sinners as is proven by the death of infants in utero and as small babies. Death is the wages for sin NOT the consequence of being given life as a human. Death proves sinfulness. None are righteous, no, not one.

Yet if we use the term original sin to refer to the idea that people inherit Adam's sin or the consequences of Adam's sin then I must protest that the GOD who is loving, righteous and just would never create anyone, let alone HIS Bride, to be as filthy rags without any free will decison to be evil.

Love Is Kind. What is this kindness that has everyone after Adam living in the consequences of his rebellion? It is impossible, a reprehensible calumny.

I did not say our sinful nature blames GOD in any way since sinfulness can be only a natural consequence of CHOOSING sin...

But the doctrine that our sin nature is inherited from Adam brings blame upon GOD for our sin because
1. we had no choice but to have a sin nature, that is, it was by HIS will, not ours, we got a sin nature and
2. HE created the system whereby we would get a sin nature through no fault or choice of our own and
3. there was no theological necessity for HIM to make us, HIS Bride, as corrupt and grossly evil in Adam and
4. to do so does NOT fit in the least with HIS self revealed character as loving, righteous and just, thereby bringing HIS good Name into disrepute.

Since we made no choice and had no say in our being created evil by means of inheriting sin from Adam, under this doctrine GOD must carry the blame for all sin except Adam's and Eve's sin, and for all the attenuating suffering and for every human in hell and the disrepute these things bring upon HIM...
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. I contend that if this psalm is true, HE would never have created the evil reprobate for HIS pleasure because HE takes no pleasure in evil.

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone... Nor did HE create anyone to die, either giving them the wages of sin at their birth nor at their death or in hell for HE takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. All earning of death is our choice as HIS lack of pleasure in any death proves...

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. This sounds the same but it adds the thought that if He wants them to repent and live, how much more would HE avoid the displeasure of their death by the simple act of not creating those who would never repent in the first place as these verses suggest HIS pleasure would lead HIM?

Oh, but what about Election by HIS Pleasure?
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will... This proves election is by HIS pleasure but it does not say HE took pleasure out of the ignoring, the passing over of the reprobate to leave them in damnation, whereas these other verses imply their evil and death would give HIM no pleasure at all. All of the references to HIS good pleasure seem to me to be appended to election but never damnation.

Peace, Ted
 
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Aussie Pete

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Yes, I agree. People are born as sinners and even conceived as sinners as is proven by the death of infants in utero and as small babies. Death is the wages for sin NOT the consequence of being given life as a human. Death proves sinfulness. None are righteous, no, not one.

Yet if we use the term original sin to refer to the idea that people inherit Adam's sin or the consequences of Adam's sin then I must protest that the GOD who is loving, righteous and just would never create anyone, let alone HIS Bride, to be as filthy rags without any free will decison to be evil.

Love Is Kind. What is this kindness that has everyone after Adam living in the consequences of his rebellion? It is impossible, a reprehensible calumny.

I did not say our sinful nature blames GOD in any way since sinfulness can be only a natural consequence of CHOOSING sin...

But the doctrine that our sin nature is inherited from Adam brings blame upon GOD for our sin because
1. we had no choice but to have a sin nature, that is, it was by HIS will, not ours, we got a sin nature and
2. HE created the system whereby we would get a sin nature through no fault or choice of our own and
3. there was no theological necessity for HIM to make us, HIS Bride, as corrupt and grossly evil in Adam and
4. to do so does NOT fit in the least with HIS self revealed character as loving, righteous and just, thereby bringing HIS good Name into disrepute.

Since we made no choice and had no say in our being created evil by means of inheriting sin from Adam, under this doctrine GOD must carry the blame for all sin except Adam's and Eve's sin, and for all the attenuating suffering and for every human in hell and the disrepute these things bring upon HIM...
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. I contend that if this psalm is true, HE would never have created the evil reprobate for HIS pleasure because HE takes no pleasure in evil.

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone... Nor did HE create anyone to die, either giving them the wages of sin at their birth nor at their death or in hell for HE takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. All earning of death is our choice as HIS lack of pleasure in any death proves...

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. This sounds the same but it adds the thought that if He wants them to repent and live, how much more would HE avoid the displeasure of their death by the simple act of not creating those who would never repent in the first place as these verses suggest HIS pleasure would lead HIM?

Oh, but what about Election by HIS Pleasure?
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will... This proves election is by HIS pleasure but it does not say HE took pleasure out of the ignoring, the passing over of the reprobate to leave them in damnation, whereas these other verses imply their evil and death would give HIM no pleasure at all. All of the references to HIS good pleasure seem to me to be appended to election but never damnation.

Peace, Ted
God did not force Adam to sin or create him with a propensity to sin. Adam was neutral. God required Adam to choose. There were two trees of note in the middle of Eden. The other tree was the tree of life. Adam had the right to choose from that tree, but not knowledge of good and evil. It is obvious to me that God intended for Adam to eat from the tree of life. The option was there and there was a strong prohibition on eating from the tree of knowledge. How hard can it be? Eat what you like apart from one fruit? Yet Adam chose to reject God's command, as simple as it was, and accept Satan's offer.

If anyone has doubts as to God's love for men made in His image, all they have to do is look at the cross. On the one hand, it demonstrates God's hatred for sin. On the other, it demonstrates God's love for the sinner.

God knew that this would happen. That does not mean He set things up so that it had to happen. Millions of Europeans could see that Hitler was going to declare war eventually. Yet little was done to prevent it and even less was done to prepare for it. Adam was warned and chose to ignore God's warning. The rest is history.
 
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Butterball1

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Paul was describing one who is saved, not an unsaved person. If unsaved people had a conviction of sin, then the Holy Spirit would be out of a job, in evangelism at least.

Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."

Adam's descendants have Adam's fallen nature. It's that simple. How could they not? And empirically demonstrable human behaviour proves the point.
The latter part of Romans 7 Paul using himself in describing the frustration of the person seeking justification by keeping the law flawlessly, sinlessly apart from Christ as Jews did under the OT law of Moses. The Jew would always end up sinning breaking the law. Paul contrasts that justification by perfect law keeping apart from Christ that fails verses "now" being in Christ where there is no condemnation, Romans 8:1

Romans 2:12 "the law" refers to the law of Moses and Gentiles did not have the law of Moses so Gentles who sinned apart from the law of Moses will perish apart from that law. And all (Jews) who sinned under the law of Moses will be judged by that law.

The first part of his verses "all who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law" does not mean those Gentiles were without law. For there can be no sin without law Romans 4:15. Yet Paul in Romans 2 says the Gentiles were sinners by their transgressions. For the Gentiles to be transgressors mena they had to transgress laws, 1 John 3:4.
 
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Butterball1

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You keep arguing about Adam's sin. No one is saying we inherited his sin. Original Sin is not Adams sin. When he sinned his inner nature changed, we inherited this changed nature. The propensity to sin.

Propensity: An inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way.
My point is no man inherits sin or a sin nature from Adam.

Why is Psalms 51:5 used to prove that men, as David, are born sinners having inherited Adam's sin? The NIV MIStranslates this verse "Surely I was sinful at birth"

According to you, was David born a sinner having inherited Adam's sin or was he born sinless yet born with a 'propensity to sin" therefore sinned later in life?

Again was David "sinful at birth" having inherited Adam's sin or was he born sinless NOT inheriting Adam's sin but instead inheriting a 'propensity to sin' therefore David became a sinner later in life but not at birth?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Great Post Aussie and I feel that Adam and Eve are great example as they chose to listen to a lie and thanks to them I have to deal with the fallout of their sin since brought into the world illness, wars, death. I am just glad that Jesus came to set us free from sin and death and he promised he was preparing a place for us and that in reality you can't lose your name from the Lamb's Book of Life but in my world of paranoid schizophrenia I see a blue light and I have fear but I am starting to come around to the truth despite these nightmares. I am starting to realize that I don't have the Mark of the Beast and that the Yellow Light is truly nothing people see the Holy Spirit in my life. They know my heart and it is never to worship Satan but Jesus and Jesus knows that it was my illness that caused me to bow to the Yellow Light. I realize that Satan has much better candidates to be a False prophet/Antichrist. Once your a Christian your saved by the blood and you can't lose the blood of Jesus the sun looking different and the knuckles is a hallucination. My cousin was telling me in the facility where she works clients are worried there soul is stolen but once you trust Jesus you can't have your soul stolen. Satan can't be in my heart and brain from a yellow light it isn't in the Bible. One day I will get to Heaven and I will ask God why he allowed me to see the Yellow Light/Cross there must be a reason God allowed me to get sick. Adam and Eve caused my sickness by their sin the Yellow Light wouldn't be a fair temptation anyway since Jesus doesn't warn about one and it isn't tangible like an Apple. I think that is why my parents are so calm is they realize the Yellow Light isn't blasphemy of the Holy Spirit nor is it the Mark of the Beast it isn't out yet as were under the new covenant and I don't think God would allow Satan to tempt a mentally ill person with the Mark or no mentally ill person would be in Heaven. I really wish Adam and Eve didn't sin my life would be less confusing. I am just glad from listening to scripture at night and praise music I realize that there is no yellow light mentioned which means it isn't real which means I am okay with God and truly in the Lamb's Book of Life Aussie great post.

Personally I believe in the doctrine of ancestral sin rather than the doctrine of original sin because in most cases the doctrine of original sin teaches that all man has inherited the guilt and punishment of Adam’s sin whereas the doctrine of ancestral sin teaches that while we did inherit Adam’s sinful nature we did not inherit the guilt and punishment for the sin that Adam committed. The scriptures say at least 10 times that each man will be judged according to his deeds. I don’t believe that anyone could rightly be judged based on the sin that Adam committed having no control over Adam’s actions. I believe ancestral sin makes much more sense than original sin and is better supported by the scriptures than original sin.
 
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1213

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...If you are talking physical death, sure. But God said that the day you eat of the tree of good and evil, you will surely die. ...

Yes, I think Bible means physical death and I understand Bible means death is a slow process. People don’t die instantly, it takes many years normally. In case of Adam and Eve it took about 1000 years, but they still were dying all that time. This is why I think God was right, people were to die, people just commonly wrongly think it is instant death, while it is really a relatively slow process.

But, nice thing is that Jesus showed a way back to life. :)
 
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Davy

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I know about Satan's rebellion (Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28). I know too that God made Adam neutral. He was not a sinner but he could choose to obey God or not.

What I underlined above is that false idea about the flesh I spoke of. Adam and Eve were not made neutral when God made them flesh. It's because the flesh is not neutral, but is a state of corruption and assigned to death. That seed of death was already in Adam and Eve's flesh before... they committed the sin. When they committed the sin by disobeying God, that is when their spirit became guilty, and the need for the spirit to be saved by Christ Jesus. This is really elementary Bible 101, but some men who like to preach a fleshy salvation have taken the short time before Adam and Eve sinned and try to apply Christ's Salvation to it, but that thinking is a doctrine of devils, like Apostle Paul showed, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (the flesh) inherit incorruption (spiritual body).
 
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Davy

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I do not take the term "Original Sin" (neither do I use it myself) as meaning Adam was the first sinner. Satan gets that dubious distinction. The root of sin is disobedience. Unbelievers are called "sons of disobedience". (Colossians 3:6, Ephesians 2:2 & 3, Ephesians 5:6).

Apostle John defined sin as transgression of the law, meaning God's law. That's what Satan did first when he coveted God's place in wanting to be GOD. That is how 'death' came into existence, as Hebrews 2:14-15 shows the power of death has been assigned to Satan. Satan was already judged and sentenced to perish by the time of Adam and Eve being made flesh, because God tells us at the end of Isaiah 30 that Tophet is ordained of old for him. The reason Jesus was foreordained 'before the foundation of the world' (this present world), was to defeat Satan and death for us. Thus flesh death was planned before this present world, but after death had been assigned to Satan because of his sin in that old world. It's time to leave the childish doctrines of men about Adam and Eve's state in Eden before they sinned, and the original sin idea, and get down to understanding all of God's Word. And part of that understanding is grasping about the old world when Satan was originally created perfect in his ways until he rebelled against God in coveting His throne.
 
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TedT

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...whereas the doctrine of ancestral sin teaches that while we did inherit Adam’s sinful nature we did not inherit the guilt and punishment for the sin that Adam committed.
If that were true then there would be no death before we sinned our own sin worthy of death.
 
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TedT

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What I underlined above is that false idea about the flesh I spoke of. Adam and Eve were not made neutral when God made them flesh. It's because the flesh is not neutral, but is a state of corruption and assigned to death. That seed of death was already in Adam and Eve's flesh before... they committed the sin.
A righteous spirit cannot inhabit an evil body. Nor do I beleive a body can be evil on its own. This is an imaginative reconciliation but
please consider
that Adam and Eve were already sinners when they were sown into the garden as the word naked, `arm, implies.*

*The word for being unclothed is an entirely different world used of Noah being naked which has NO connotation of being sinful at all whereas the word `arm has both implications to choose from since the same word is used in the very next verse and translated as cunning: Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more CRAFTY, `arm, than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. Crafty is used to describe the extent of the serpent's evil.

Adam and Eve were `arm.
The serpent was `arm.
This could lead to Adam and Eve being crafty but not ashamed (ie, they thought they were righteous and needed their eyes to be opened) and the serpent was naked...

Nakedness:
The word naked is in Revelation 3:17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and NAKED. which is obviously a metaphor for being spiritually unclothed, that is, sinful before GOD. It is no accident that righteous acts are called fine linen robes, the covering of the holy: Revelation 19:8 Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God's holy people.

The law:
Add in the fact that the law (Thou shalt not eat...) is not for the righteous but for the sinner: 1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels... to open their eyes to their sinfulness, Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin., an awareness called "opening their eyes" to cause them the shame they should have been feeling all along. The forbidden tree was to provide the law that would open their eyes to their sin and make them ashamed and to realize their need for a saviour when they failed to be obedient.

The Serpent was allowed to inveigle Eve to prove to them that he was not a mentor nor pastor as he pretended but was in fact their worst enemy, a lesson they learned perfectly even if many later humans do not. It was a dumb move on the serpent's part, almost as bad as Satan allowing himself to be tricked into exposing the great depths of his evil by monstering the most holy old man on earth merely because he was loyal to YHWH.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If that were true then there would be no death before we sinned our own sin worthy of death.

unless the reference to death in Genesis was referring to a spiritual death which would make sense since everyone is born spiritually dead.
 
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TedT

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unless the reference to death in Genesis was referring to a spiritual death which would make sense since everyone is born spiritually dead.
If everyone is born (conceived?) spiritually dead, then how did that come about?
1. GOD created them spiritually dead at conception.
2. GOD adjudicated them to be spiritually dead at their birth.
3. They sinned and became spiritually dead before they were conceived as human. This of course would necessitate they were created and had existence before (pre) their conception with a free will and the ability and opportunity to choose sin.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If everyone is born (conceived?) spiritually dead, then how did that come about?
1. GOD created them spiritually dead at conception.
2. GOD adjudicated them to be spiritually dead at their birth.
3. They sinned and became spiritually dead before they were conceived as human. This of course would necessitate they were created and had existence before (pre) their conception with a free will and the ability and opportunity to choose sin.

Their spiritual death was inherited from Adam.
 
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TedT

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Their spiritual death was inherited from Adam.
Spiritual death is the result of sin. To inherit spiritual death from Adam we had to inherit HIS sinfulness, with no personal choice to be against GOD in any way. GOD would never create anyone in the position of being against HIM.

Therefore it is clear to me and quite acceptable that the death we inherited from Adam was physical death so that all the sinful elect could each come into Christ's death in Adam so Christ did not have die once for each of us.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Apostle John defined sin as transgression of the law, meaning God's law. That's what Satan did first when he coveted God's place in wanting to be GOD. That is how 'death' came into existence, as Hebrews 2:14-15 shows the power of death has been assigned to Satan. Satan was already judged and sentenced to perish by the time of Adam and Eve being made flesh, because God tells us at the end of Isaiah 30 that Tophet is ordained of old for him. The reason Jesus was foreordained 'before the foundation of the world' (this present world), was to defeat Satan and death for us. Thus flesh death was planned before this present world, but after death had been assigned to Satan because of his sin in that old world. It's time to leave the childish doctrines of men about Adam and Eve's state in Eden before they sinned, and the original sin idea, and get down to understanding all of God's Word. And part of that understanding is grasping about the old world when Satan was originally created perfect in his ways until he rebelled against God in coveting His throne.

Perhaps you would like to point out where the Bible says that God's law preceded man's creation.
There is nothing childish about Adam's fall. If it was not for that, Lord Jesus would not have had to die. Adam had dominion over all the creatures on the earth. Satan, in the form of the Serpent, put himself under Adam's authority. When Adam disobeyed, he put the whole of humanity under Satan's control. The whole of human history turns on that one event. You think it childish? Good for you. Others may disagree. That includes me.
 
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coffee4u

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My point is no man inherits sin or a sin nature from Adam.

Why is Psalms 51:5 used to prove that men, as David, are born sinners having inherited Adam's sin? The NIV MIStranslates this verse "Surely I was sinful at birth"

According to you, was David born a sinner having inherited Adam's sin or was he born sinless yet born with a 'propensity to sin" therefore sinned later in life?

Again was David "sinful at birth" having inherited Adam's sin or was he born sinless NOT inheriting Adam's sin but instead inheriting a 'propensity to sin' therefore David became a sinner later in life but not at birth?

David was acknowledging that he not only committed sins, but like all human beings he was born with a sinful nature. It isn't an either or situation, its both and all.

If someone finds a hundred dollar bill most likely they will take it. Their eyes see it, their mind wants it, their hand takes it.

James 1:15
Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.


Desire is the sin nature. The desire by itself has not yet turned into sin. It is at this point a person has a choice. Do they give in to their sin nature or do they rise above it.
Eve did not have this nature. Left to herself she would have had no thoughts of the fruit being "good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom" Satan gave her the idea.
We don't need Satan to whisper in our ear "You should take that money" We do it all on our own.


The Bible is very clear that a change took place inside of Adam and Eve. They were different after they ate the fruit.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."


We are born already with this change in place. or are you denying the Bible says they changed from before to after eating the fruit? I believe this took place quite literally as written.
 
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