Null/Voided Out

1213 said:

I accept the whole Bible.

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The Bible supports all three doctrines of the final judgement. Which one is correct?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

Saint Steven said:

The Bible supports all three doctrines of the final judgement. Which one is correct?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

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Or
1) The prison
2) The gallows
3) The hospital

1213 said:

Because of that, hell (Gehenna) is not in my opinion regular earthly fire. And that is why it maybe that it is a place where unrighteous live eternally and they themselves are the fire that burns. Reason why I think they are not living is that eternal life is promised only for righteous and the hell is the second death.

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Ok, agreed it's not earthly fire. But where does it come from?

I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (Dan 7:9-10)

The fire comes from the very throne of God! And where do streams go? That's right, to the lake:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14)

So the fire is eternal because it is from God, as only God is eternal. It is God's fiery presence, as Moses saw in the burning bush. God is a refiner's fire (Mal 3:3).

Saved, though as through fire. (1 Cor 3:15)

Saint Steven said:

The Bible supports all three doctrines of the final judgement. Which one is correct?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

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I have understood there is destruction (death) for unrighteous and restoration for righteous, because of these:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

1213 said:

I have understood there is destruction (death) for unrighteous and restoration for righteous, because of these:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

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Thanks.
Do you believe that God predestined some for restoration and the rest for destruction?

Saint Steven said: ↑
The Bible supports all three doctrines of the final judgement. Which one is correct?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

Saint Steven said:

Thanks.
Do you believe that God predestined some for restoration and the rest for destruction?...

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I believe God has predestined righteous into eternal life and unrighteous to death. But that who are righteous, depends also on what people want and choose.

1213 said:

I believe God has predestined righteous into eternal life and unrighteous to death. But that who are righteous, depends also on what people want and choose.

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Well, if ANYONE is predestined to eternal life, then everyone else is predestined to death. Right?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Thanks.
Do you believe that God predestined some for restoration and the rest for destruction?...

Saint Steven said:

Well, if ANYONE is predestined to eternal life, then everyone else is predestined to death. Right?
...

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By what the Bible tells, righteous are predestined to eternal life and unrighteous will have death.

1213 said:

By what the Bible tells, righteous are predestined to eternal life and unrighteous will have death.

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Are these from the Bible? What do they say?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Saint Steven said:

Are these from the Bible? What do they say?

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Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

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"May" is not necessarily "will."

"Bringing" is not necessarily "giving."

Shrewd Manager said:

Would be more courteous, imho, if the attention you paid was actually to him.

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Speaking for him now? That explains a lot.

That's a little apropos of nothing, but anyway, your homily on the tenses of reconciliation notwithstanding, it takes us no further than to affirm that all will ultimately be reconciled to God through Christ.

That's what God promises in Isa 45:23, what Jesus 'tetelestais' at Calvary, what St Paul affirms in 1 Cor 15:28 and elsewhere, and what will coalesce and consummate come the Great Renewal as foretold in the final visions of the apocalypse of St John in Rev 21 and 22.

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And a second time. . .the word "allegiance" is not in the Hebrew of Isa 45:23 or in the Greek of Ro 14:11. You don't have to be reconciled with
your enemy to bow the knee and confess (agree) that he has all the power.

Isa 45:23 contains no word "allegiance" in the Hebrew and is no promise of conversion or restoration. . .that's only narrow wishful thinking on your part.

Jesus at Calvary, but not Jesus at Mt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 23:15, 33; Mk 9:43, 45, 47, 48; Lk 12:5, 16:24; Mt 12:31, 32, 13:30, 18:8, 9, 25:41, 46; Lk 3:17.

1Co 15:28 refers to no such thing.

Rev 21, except for v.8, and v.9 where the wife and bride of the Lamb are the Church (Eph 5:31-32), which excludes those in v.8.

Rev 22, except for v.12, and vv.14-15, which again are those in 20:8.

Scatter-shot understanding will never arrive at truth.

Saint Steven said:

Are these from the Bible? What do they say?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

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I think those say just what is written. I don’t think they revokes what I said before.

Clare73 said:

Speaking for him now? That explains a lot.

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Take your best shot sister, I'll wait lol.

Clare73 said:

And a second time. . .you don't have to have allegiance to, nor be reconciled with,
your enemy to bow the knee and confess (agree) that he has all the power.

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Like me now, saying I give up you win?

Clare73 said:

Isa 45:23 is no promise of conversion or restoration. . .that's only narrow wishful thinking on your part.

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And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. (Rev 5:13)

Now that feels better, doesn't it? That would be the 'exomolgeo' moment of embarkation.

Clare73 said:

1Co 15:28 refers to no such thing.

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Would that be 'regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.' (Eph 1:10)

Clare73 said:

Rev 21, except for v.8, and v.9 where the wife and bride of the Lamb are the Church (Eph 5:31-32), which excludes those in v.8.

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That would be those who are invited to come take the water of life. God didn't say 'Behold I am making all things anew, except for you, you and you.'

Maybe in your glorious Bible, the one where God loses, those evil critters slip through His fingers and Jesus just can't save them. The underpowered gospel eh, sounds more like the Pfizer vaccine trial protocol.

Clare73 said:

And for the second time. . .the word "allegiance" is not in the Hebrew of Isa 45:23, nor the Greek of Ro 14:11. You don't have to be reconciled with your enemy to bow the knee and confess (agree) that he has all the power.

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Convenient misrepresentation of Scripture.

Shrewd Manager said:

Take your best shot sister, I'll wait lol.

Like me now, saying I give up you win?

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Precisely.

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.(Rev 5:13)

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I don't see the creatures thrown in the Lake of Fire included in that list.

Now that feels better, doesn't it? That would be the 'exomolgeo' moment of embarkation.

Would that be 'regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.' (Eph 1:10)

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Nope. . ."to bring all things together under one head; i.e., Christ". . .and Yep, that includes under his authority and control those in the Lake of Fire--the devil, his angels and the reprobate who rejected Jesus Christ. . .just as Satan and his angels are under God's authority and control now.

Another convenient misrepresentation of the Scriptures.

That would be those who are invited to come take the water of life.
God didn't say 'Behold I am making all things anew, except for you, you and you.'

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Indeed, he did just that!

After he who was seated on the great white throne throws into the Lake of Fire all those whose names were not written in the Book of Life in Rev 20:15, he declares in Rev 21:5 that he is making all things new, and it doesn't include those in the Lake of Fire, the devil, his angels and the reprobate.

Another convenient misrepresentation of the Scriptures.

Maybe in your glorious Bible, the one where God loses,

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That would be in my glorious Bible where the God-breathed Holy Scriptures are not conveniently misrepresented.

those evil critters slip through His fingers and Jesus just can't save them. The underpowered gospel eh, sounds more like the Pfizer vaccine trial protocol.

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It's not about Jesus' fingers, it's about those who are the Father's possession (Eph 1:14) whom he has given to Christ
and who are actually in those fingers (Jn 6:37, 39, 10:28-29, 18:9).

Another convenient misrepresentation of the Scriptures.

Four deliberate misrepresentations of Scripture in one post.

You should just write your own Bible instead of misrepresenting the one God gave us.

Clare73 said:

You should just write your own Bible instead of misrepresenting the one God gave us.

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You funny.

Here it is again, 'sistermatically' (all from NASB):

And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. (Gen 22:18)

I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23)

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:10-11)

And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever. (Rev 5:13)

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 22:24)

It's the ultimate in progressive revelation of the promise. The stream of living water that issues from the throne and swells into a mighty river which cascades into the Dead Sea, giving life to all things.

And yet some would still seek to pluck defeat from the jaws of Christ's total victory. But God is not mocked:

For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:36)

Shrewd Manager said:

You funny.
Here it is again, 'sistermatically' (all from NASB):
And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. (Gen 22:18)
I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23)

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No. . ."systematically":
there is no "allegiance" in the Hebrew of Isa 45:23, nor in the Greek of Ro 14:11.

"Swear" (Heb, shaba) is simply to take an oath. . .in the name of Jesus every knee should bow. . . and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (Php 2:10-11). They will swear an oath that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Now that's being Lord!

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:10-11)

And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever. (Rev 5:13)

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 22:24)

It's the ultimate in progressive revelation of the promise. The stream of living water that issues from the throne and swells into a mighty river which cascades into the Dead Sea, giving life to all things.

And yet some would still seek to pluck defeat from the jaws of Christ's total victory. But God is not mocked:

For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:36)

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Clare73 said:

No. . ."systematically":
there is no "allegiance" in the Hebrew of Isa 45:23, nor in the Greek of Ro 14:11.

"Swear" (Heb, shaba) is simply to take an oath. . .in the name of Jesus every knee should bow. . . and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (Php 2:10-11). They will swear an oath that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Now that's being Lord!

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I think you may have missed the coup de grace, one more time:

And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever. (Rev 5:13)

Allegrande! All creation in unison. Pearls.

Clare73 said:

No. . ."systematically":
there is no "allegiance" in the Hebrew of Isa 45:23, nor in the Greek of Ro 14:11.
"Swear" (Heb, shaba) is simply to take an oath. . .in the name of Jesus every knee should bow. . . and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (Php 2:10-11). They will swear an oath that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Now that's being Lord!

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Shrewd Manager said:

I think you may have missed the coup de grace, one more time:

And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever. (Rev 5:13)

Allegrande! All creation in unison. Pearls.

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More scatter shot. . .this relates to "allegiance," which is not in the text, how?

Unison of what? . . .voices swearing. . .so?

Shrewd Manager said:

I think you may have missed the coup de grace, one more time:

And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever. (Rev 5:13)

Allegrande! All creation in unison. Pearls.

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How could a biblical statement be any more inclusive than this?
- every created thing
- in heaven
- or on the earth
- or under the earth (in the realm of the dead)
- or on the sea
- and all the things in them

Who are we missing here? (no one, no thing)

Clare73 said:

More scatter shot. . .this relates to "allegiance," which is not in the text, how?

Unison of what? . . .voices swearing. . .so?

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Hm, I'll try again, though I do suspect you're being deliberately obtuse Clare.

Isa 45:23 eventually finds its consummation in Rev 5:13.

So the 'swearing' is heard in the words that creation speaks in unison "To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever."

Is that allegiance? It's much more than that. Giving honour and worship to God. Can you say that's forced confession? Don't think so.