Law and Prophets until John

visionary

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"The law and the prophets were until John, any other prophets after are false." This was a quote I have taken from another thread. I think it deserves its own thread, for us to mull further.

If it is true, then what are the two witnesses of Revelation? If it is true, the what about all the other "prophets" that have come forward with their prophetic word?

If it is not true, then how should we read and understand this verse to mean? Your thoughts and comments appreciated.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I think you'll find the context helpful.

Luke 16
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

In terms of prophecy and revelation,

Re 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Hope you have a blessed day.
 
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Jamdoc

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"The law and the prophets were until John, any other prophets after are false." This was a quote I have taken from another thread. I think it deserves its own thread, for us to mull further.

If it is true, then what are the two witnesses of Revelation? If it is true, the what about all the other "prophets" that have come forward with their prophetic word?

If it is not true, then how should we read and understand this verse to mean? Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

The two witnesses are most often believed to be Elijah and either Moses or Enoch.
I'm in the Enoch camp myself because Enoch never died.
I also think that Enoch is a strong choice because while Jude and Peter make references to Enoch, and Jude even quotes him, we do not have Enoch's testimony. Only a short blip about him in Genesis. But don't you think actual inspired testimony from a man who was raptured up to heaven to be with the Lord before the flood would be profitable?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In terms of the two witnesses that are left to rot in the great city and then are resurrected 3.5 days later after a 3.5 year ministry - it is possible that they are the last two witnesses of the 144,000.
 
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Yusuphhai

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Act 21:10While we were staying there for several days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.

1Corinthians 12:28And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues.

The prophets obviously exist after Baptist John, though not according to the Laws. As Yeshua is not a High Priest according to Allan's heritage but Melchizedek.
 
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HARK!

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If it is true, then what are the two witnesses of Revelation? If it is true, the what about all the other "prophets" that have come forward with their prophetic word?

If the way that this is commonly interpreted is correct; then we would have to dismiss Yahshua's prophecies, along with the whole book of Revelation.
 
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BrotherJJ

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"The law and the prophets were until John, any other prophets after are false." This was a quote I have taken from another thread. I think it deserves its own thread, for us to mull further.

If it is true, then what are the two witnesses of Revelation? If it is true, the what about all the other "prophets" that have come forward with their prophetic word?

If it is not true, then how should we read and understand this verse to mean? Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Law & Prophets

1) Law reference: Gen, Ex, Lev, Num, Deut.

2) Prophets reference: the rest of scripture UNTIL John the Baptist appears.

3) All the books written by Moses & the other prophets, point to the coming of the promised Messiah. See Lk 24:44 below

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(MY NOTE: John announces Messiah's arrival. And a transition from OT to NT begins)

Other scripture references on the Law & Prophets

Luke 24:
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Matt 5:
7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
(MY NOTE: Here scripture confirms/validates John 1:29-34 teaching)

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(MY NOTE: Rom written to NT believers (Rom 1:7). The righteousness of God written of by Moses & the prophets is now revealed separate from/without the works of the law)
 
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Soyeong

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"The law and the prophets were until John, any other prophets after are false." This was a quote I have taken from another thread. I think it deserves its own thread, for us to mull further.

If it is true, then what are the two witnesses of Revelation? If it is true, the what about all the other "prophets" that have come forward with their prophetic word?

If it is not true, then how should we read and understand this verse to mean? Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Jesus was a prophet who came after John. In Luke 16:16-18, Jesus said that the Mosaic Law was until John and that since then the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached, namely to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so the fact that he was speaking about the Mosaic Law still being taught after John means that he was not speaking about it ending with him. Furthermore, Jesus went on in verses 17-18 to teach obedience to the Mosaic Law and to say that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the least part to disappear from the Mosaic Law, so he was not speaking about a law that he thought had already ended. Lastly, neither John or Jesus taught people to stop repenting from their sins, but just the opposite.
 
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tampasteve

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It is important to realize that people can speak in prophesy without being a Prophet. Paul was not a Prophet, but would prophesy. The Apostle John would also qualify as one that spoke in prophesy but not a Prophet as commonly understood in Judaism. Yeshua, being God, is not really a Prophet in the same manner, so I would set him apart from the general understanding of that statement. In general I would agree with the statement, with what I just wrote as caveats.

I think many in Christianity through around the office of "Prophet" far too quickly.
 
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Tone

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It looks after the period of Apostles,prophecy has relationship with preaching,which is a common gift from Ruach HaKodesh. But many who call themself "prophet" are false.


Yes the gift of prophecy today is more like a forth-telling rather than the foretelling of the prophets of old. People with the gift would be doing something similar to what Messiah did in Isaiah:

"21and He began by saying, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Declaring the fulfillment of the initial foretelling, thus harvesting it in its season.
 
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Yusuphhai

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Yes the gift of prophecy today is more like a forth-telling rather than the foretelling of the prophets of old. People with the gift would be doing something similar to what Messiah did in Isaiah:

"21and He began by saying, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Declaring the fulfillment of the initial foretelling, thus harvesting it in its season.
Yes prophecy today is a supplement or explanation of the Prophets according to the Laws. That is not of our work but of Yeshua and Ruach HaKodesh.

【1Co14:39】Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
 
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GedaliahMaegil

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Yeshua, being God, is not really a Prophet in the same manner, ...

What in the world ... ?

On the contrary, Yeshua is not only a prophet but The Prophet. Any Messianic who studies Torah knows that from Devarim 18:13-19:

"Be perfect before יהוה your Elohim, for these nations whom you are possessing do listen to those using magic and to diviners. But as for you, Adonai your Elohim has not appointed such for you. יהוה your Elohim shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brothers. Listen to Him, according to all you asked of Adonai your Elohim in Ḥorev in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of Adonai my Elohim, nor let me see this great fire any more, lest I die.’

"And Adonai said to me, 'What they have spoken is good. I shall raise up for them a Prophet like you out of the midst of their brothers. And I shall put My Words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be, the man who does not listen to My Words which He speaks in My Name, I require it of him.'"
 
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Mercy74

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Yes prophecy today is a supplement or explanation of the Prophets according to the Laws. That is not of our work but of Yeshua and Ruach HaKodesh.

【1Co14:39】Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

John the Baptist, was a priest; the son of a priest.

Luke 1
5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.

Paul the Pharisee, was a son of a Pharisee

Acts 23:6
Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. It is because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.”

John the priest, the son of a blameless priest (Zechariah), who observed all the Lord's commands and decrees; performed "ceremonial washing" (baptism) outside in the wilderness. John was the last priest to baptize, ceremonial wash, anoint or appoint a king of Israel, that is why during this time the "kingdom of heaven is at hand".
 
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Yusuphhai

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John was the last priest to baptize, ceremonial wash, anoint or appoint a king of Israel, that is why during this time the "kingdom of heaven is at hand".

Romans 10:4 For Messiah is the Goal(fulfillment, shalom) of Torah for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So when John the Baptist met Yeshua the Messiah, he knew "the kingdom of heaven (the fulfillment of Torah) is at hand".
 
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Mercy74

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Romans 10:4 For Messiah is the Goal(fulfillment, shalom) of Torah for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So when John the Baptist met Yeshua the Messiah, he knew "the kingdom of heaven (the fulfillment of Torah) is at hand".

John the priest was like Samuel the priest. Samuel anointed Saul and David as king over Israel.

Romans 10:4 For Messiah is the Goal(fulfillment, shalom) of Torah for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So when John the Baptist met Yeshua the Messiah, he knew "the kingdom of heaven (the fulfillment of Torah) is at hand".

John the priest was like Elijah the prophet;

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

Elijah anointed a king over Syria and a king over Aram; anointed Elisha to serve as prophet; John the priest had disciples;

1 Kings 19:15-16
15 The Lord said to him, “Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. 16 Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet.

John the priest came to anoint Yeshua as king over Israel; to sit in the seat of David; prepare the way of the Lord;

Matthew 3:1-3
In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.’”
 
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chunkofcoal

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The two witnesses are going to be more like Elijah who said:
1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

Or like Moses and Aaron. The prophecies won't be for a distant time, but will take place immediately.
 
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Laureate

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"The law and the prophets were until John, any other prophets after are false." This was a quote I have taken from another thread. I think it deserves its own thread, for us to mull further.

If it is true, then what are the two witnesses of Revelation? If it is true, the what about all the other "prophets" that have come forward with their prophetic word?

If it is not true, then how should we read and understand this verse to mean? Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

נביאי ותורת Prophets OF the Toruth v.s. נביאי ותורת Prophets AND the Toruth.

Carefully note how the word Toruth Law(s) is used in the following contexts, and how a clear distinction is made between the Toruth of the Prophets, and the Toruth of Môsʰé.

• Neither have we obeyed the Voice of Yᵊhûʷəh our Alôhâ, to walk in his Toruth, which he set before us by his Servants the Prophets.

Yea, all Îsʰrəél have transgressed your Toruth, even by departing, that they might not obey your Voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the Toruth of Môsʰé the servant of Alôʰhéyîm, because we have sinned against him. [ref., Daniel 9:10-11]

In the following passage Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ quotes Psalms 82:6 saying, is it not written in your Toruth....

• Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ answered them, Is it not written in your Toruth, I said, You are Alôʰhéyîm? [ref., John 10:34]

Establishing all things by two or three, we can conclude that the term Torah-Toruth does not pertain exclusively to the writings of Môsʰé.

And we should also recognize the example and clarification provided by Daniel, where an ascription accompanies the term Toruth, to let one know whether a text pertains unto the entire Toruth, or a particular segment of the Toruth.

Because the name, Môsʰé, is not mentioned in the following passage, whereas the title, 'Prophets', is clearly specified, the passage should read, '...all of the Prophets of the Toruth Prophesied until John.', and not, '...all of the Prophets, and the Toruth Prophesied until John. [Matthew 11:13]

Thus (with this clarification) one can see that Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ was not declaring John to be the last prophet, he was declaring John to be Malachi [the Angel-Messenger of Yah], who indeed was the Last Prophet of the Toruth.

• For all of the Prophets of the Toruth Prophesied until John. [Matthew 11:13]

This was stated to recognize the extent of the written Toruth being from the First Prophet unto John, and thereby signify the Last of Toruth writings;

This was also stated to reiterate what Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ had already declared, that John was Malachi, and thirdly this was stated to reveal unto those who have an ear to hear that, John was Father Abvrᵊhəm, for the First person Called to work in the Vineyard, is also the Last person Called to work in the Vineyard.
 
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Laureate

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The two witnesses are most often believed to be Elijah and either Moses or Enoch.
I'm in the Enoch camp myself because Enoch never died.
I also think that Enoch is a strong choice because while Jude and Peter make references to Enoch, and Jude even quotes him, we do not have Enoch's testimony. Only a short blip about him in Genesis. But don't you think actual inspired testimony from a man who was raptured up to heaven to be with the Lord before the flood would be profitable?

The two witnesses of the first advent are the same two witnesses in the second advent.
 
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Laureate

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That's not to say that Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ was not Enoch, for all men are appointed to die at least once, yet I have no doubt, that Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ was Seth the Son of Adam, I'll have to check my notes to see if Seth died before Enoch was born.
 
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