Are we saved by Works, or Faith Alone?

boxman144 said:

Hello all, I'm back with our friend again,

Recently he posted this video. Are we saved by works, faith and works, or faith alone?

I'd like you guys to be respectful in the comments please, and gently rebuke. Thanks,


boxman144

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Good works can be done for any number of reasons, such as attempting to earn our salvation or as an expression of our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, so denying that we earn our justification by our works is not denying that justification requires choosing to do works for some other reason, such as faith.

Luther said that we are justified by faith alone, but that faith is never alone. So to say that we are justified by faith alone is denying that there are any works that we can do to help earn our justification, but our faith is never alone in that the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as doing good works. This was essentially what Paul was saying in Romans 3:27-31, where we are justified by faith apart from works, yet our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it.

While it was true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so he did not earn his justification by his obedience, but rather the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience. In James 2:21-22, Abraham was justified by his works, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so Abraham was justified by his works only insofar as his works were an expression of his faith, but he was not justified by his works insofar as they were an attempt to earn his justification as though it were a wage (Romans 4:4-5). Only those who have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live will obey His law, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, but denied that we earn our justification by being doers of the law.

Brett Hooper said:

I think many Christians are too quick to jump on those who mention works as if they are suggesting works apart from faith. I don't personally know any Christians who believe in works only.

I think the modern definition of faith is also very weak. Those of faith in the Bible did the works of God—where would any of us be without the works of Abraham, the works of Jesus? Christians like to quote Paul on works, but what a mighty man of works Paul himself was!

The Bible is very clear that we are not called according to our prior works, but according to God’s purpose (2 Timothy 1:9). I ask: How do we fulfil God’s purpose if we don’t do anything?

The Bible is very clear that each man will be judged according to his works (Rom 2:6; 2 Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; Rev 20:12; Psa 62:12; Pro 24:12).

Do you really think God will accept those who stand aside while unbelievers go to their destruction? Won’t He rather accept those who have engaged in His work of saving the lost as He has commanded? Jesus Himself said: “If you love Me, obey My commandments!” (John 14:15)

I have written about this all-important subject in my book Modern Idolatry and I would be happy to debate anyone on this point as it is so important.

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Are you saying Christians will go to hell of they don't save enough people from going to hell?

Der Alte said:

Faith alone. But,

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.​

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We are saved by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and not by a dead faith which demonstrates by the lack of evidential works that it's an empty profession of faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14-18)

Albion said:

Faith Alone.

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In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Hello, Brett.

The issue isn't that works are important...or not.

This famous controversy is almost totally about the difference between the belief that we are saved by Faith in Christ and that good works will naturally and unavoidably proceed from that Faith...

or that the same Faith AND the works are both meritorious, i.e. are joint determiners of whether we are saved or not.

Albion said:

Hello, Brett.

The issue isn't that works are important...or not.

This famous controversy is almost totally about the difference between the belief that we are saved by Faith in Christ and that good works will naturally and unavoidably proceed from that Faith...

or that the same Faith AND the works are both meritorious, i.e. are joint determiners of whether we are saved or not.

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Hey Albion,

I agree with you that we have to put works in their proper place. The problem I have is—there are so many Christians out there claiming to be saved by faith alone, yet have no good works to show for their faith.

Many who believe in "faith alone" will say that these Christians didn't make a genuine conversion as their lack of works shows. The problem with this kind of argument is that everything becomes subjective, rather than the Bible's clear statement that every man will be judged according to his works—being a tangible and knowable standard. Jesus also said we will know them by their fruit, which is also quite tangible.

Albion, I don't have a problem with those who believe in "faith alone" and produce good works from a good heart towards God. The problem is that modern Christianity has become defined by a lack of good works and I think this teaching of "faith alone" has contributed to that.

Unless we get back to the biblical doctrines of obedience, the fear of God, keeping of good works, judgment according to works, we will never be able to wake up those up who say they believe, but deny Jesus as Lord by ignoring His instructions.

Hope this makes sense Albion.

MMXX said:

Are you saying Christians will go to hell of they don't save enough people from going to hell?

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Hi Brian,

I think one of the problems with modern Protestantism is that we're looking for a formula for salvation, rather than acknowledging that our salvation is granted by a person—who we will need to stand before to give an account of our stewardship of the Gospel.

Brian, I'm just another guy with another opinion. I think the real issue is—should be be listening to modern theologians regarding salvation, or should we be listening to what Jesus said regarding the judgment? It seems to me there is a contradiction in these two things and I'm backing Jesus to be right.

Jesus taught the fear of God, judgment according to works, obedience—all of which are missing from our modern theology. I think Revelation 2 & 3 are instructive here, in the letter to the seven congregations Jesus bases His assessment of these believers on their works, which is worth thinking about.

Salvation
starts with the experience of being born-again (John 3:3). When one trusts in the crucified and risen Jesus Christ to provide forgiveness of sin, he or she is made a new person (2 Corinthians 5:17). A new spiritual nature is granted (Galatians 3:2), and a home in everlasting paradise is guaranteed (John 14:1-3). All of this occurs in an instant (Luke 19:9). It is a one-time occurrence by which God accomplishes an instantaneous spiritual change. His work is based on His grace (2 Timothy 1:9), and it comes to man and woman through faith (Romans 5:1). The Bible says, “For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— not from works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). By His divine design, God saves people so that He might get the glory He desires and deserves!

Sanctification
is the second phase of God’s redemptive work. After we are saved, we enter into a life-long process of growing more and more into what God wants us to be. The moment of conversion does not produce a complete change of character. Sure, old things are done away with, and the saved person becomes new (2 Corinthians 5:17), but a struggle with sin still exists. Old habits and hangups hang around. There is no perfection until the resurrection, so believers have to work on becoming more like Jesus. This process is called “sanctification.” It is a gradual, incremental, and progressive work of growth. It is a transformational journey whereby we are set apart for God’s holy usage. The Bible says, “For this is God’s will, your sanctification” (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Such a work of change occurs as we walk with God and allow Him to change us from the inside out (2 Corinthians 3:18).

3 Phases of Salvation | FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH

Brett Hooper said:

I agree with you that we have to put works in their proper place. The problem I have is—there are so many Christians out there claiming to be saved by faith alone, yet have no good works to show for their faith.

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I won't disagree, but I don't see that the theology fails as a result. IMHO, the churches which do teach works righteousness can point to just as many members who are the kind of lazy or nominal Christian that you are concerned about.

Many who believe in "faith alone" will say that these Christians didn't make a genuine conversion as their lack of works shows. The problem with this kind of argument is that everything becomes subjective, rather than the Bible's clear statement that every man will be judged according to his works—being a tangible and knowable standard. Jesus also said we will know them by their fruit, which is also quite tangible.

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One ingredient that perhaps should be kept in mind is that "judged" is not so easily defined. Even the people who believe in Faith Alone should realize that the works which are done, while not determining if the person is saved or not, do play another role.

Scripture teaches us that we will be rewarded according to our works. That's not being saved, but some other kind of reward. So the works that are done come into play that way.

Albion, I don't have a problem with those who believe in "faith alone" and produce good works from a good heart towards God. The problem is that modern Christianity has become defined by a lack of good works and I think this teaching of "faith alone" has contributed to that.

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Personally, I doubt it, but it is hard for us to judge, either way.

Brett Hooper said:

Hi Brian,

I think one of the problems with modern Protestantism is that we're looking for a formula for salvation, rather than acknowledging that our salvation is granted by a person—who we will need to stand before to give an account of our stewardship of the Gospel.

Brian, I'm just another guy with another opinion. I think the real issue is—should be be listening to modern theologians regarding salvation, or should we be listening to what Jesus said regarding the judgment? It seems to me there is a contradiction in these two things and I'm backing Jesus to be right.

Jesus taught the fear of God, judgment according to works, obedience—all of which are missing from our modern theology. I think Revelation 2 & 3 are instructive here, in the letter to the seven congregations Jesus bases His assessment of these believers on their works, which is worth thinking about.

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Either salvation is cut and dry, or it's full of conditions (a formula) one must perform in order to try achieving it.

Is he right or wrong?

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Albion.

One of the issues I have with modern theology is that we proclaim our own salvation, which I also contributes to the

MMXX said:

Either salvation is cut and dry, or it's full of conditions (a formula) one must perform in order to try achieving it.

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I'd disagree, I think declaring our own salvation is making it into a formula. Saying that our salvation is ultimately in Jesus' hands and that we have to give an account, is treating Him with the respect He deserves and is entitled to as the one who paid for our sins.

This is my opinion against your opinion, ultimately we need to get back to what Jesus said on this issue. I think Protestantism would do better to listen to fewer sermons and spend more time reading Jesus actual words.

Albion said:

I won't disagree, but I don't see that the theology fails as a result. IMHO, the churches which do teach works righteousness can point to just as many members who are the kind of lazy or nominal Christian that you are concerned about.


One ingredient that perhaps should be kept in mind is that "judged" is not so easily defined. Even the people who believe in Faith Alone should realize that the works which are done, while not determining if the person is saved or not, do play another role.

Scripture teaches us that we will be rewarded according to our works. That's not being saved, but some other kind of reward. So the works that are done come into play that way.


Personally, I doubt it, but it is hard for us to judge, either way.

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I agree with you that the other side of this argument hasn't got it right either and lack good works too.

Brett Hooper said:

I'd disagree, I think declaring our own salvation is making it into a formula. Saying that our salvation is ultimately in Jesus' hands and that we have to give an account, is treating Him with the respect He deserves and is entitled to as the one who paid for our sins.

This is my opinion against your opinion, ultimately we need to get back to what Jesus said on this issue. I think Protestantism would do better to listen to fewer sermons and spend more time reading Jesus actual words.

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I don't get "declaring our own salvation". I've never heard of that before in 50 years of being a Christian. God declares our salvation through our faith and belief in His Son Jesus Christ when we become Born Again. Your message seems to be based on what modern theology and Protestantism is teaching; But that's vague as there's quite a bit of variance in what modern theology and Protestantism teaches depending on whether it's a form of Calvinism, Arminianism, Evangelical, Mainline etc etc.

Brett Hooper said:

I don't have a problem with those who believe in "faith alone" and produce good works from a good heart towards God.

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Me either. That's how real Christians operate. That's what I've been taught my whole life.

Brett Hooper said:

The problem is that modern Christianity has become defined by a lack of good works and I think this teaching of "faith alone" has contributed to that.

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So by modern Christianity, do you mean secular churches? Where the pastor is just a motivational speaker? We just called that false christianity back in the day.

boxman144 said:

Hello all, I'm back with our friend again,

Recently he posted this video. Are we saved by works, faith and works, or faith alone?

I'd like you guys to be respectful in the comments please, and gently rebuke. Thanks,


boxman144

Click to expand...

We are saved by faith, but faith requieres work (James). We must grow in faith. The more you grow in faith, then the easiest the works flow because it becomes your identity; you do good works because of who and whose you are, not because you have to.

The way I explain Christianity is, it’s like a child who got lost and was adopted by a farmer family from another country. They teach him their traditions and culture but the child always felt different. Then one day he finds out he belongs to a royal family. The King brings his son home, but His son has the traditions from his former farmers family. He is a heir to the throne, it’s in his blood, he is the image of his Father, but he most discover (by working) his real identity. For a while it will feel like a lot of work and pain, he is dying to his old self, and well, death doesn't feel good. But eventually it brings out the kingdom in him, his royal nature.

At the end it doesn't matter if you did more good works than others, Christians understand that everything we do, we do for His glory and we will give God any harvest; we will throw our crowns at His feet because everything we do is for His glory. Do Christians need to do good works? Yes, but not because we to do it to be saved and be approved, but because that’s what run in our blood; royal blood. It’s part of our identity; that’s who we are in Him.

When we become Born Again, we receive the Holy Spirit and He motivates us to good works. That's why Paul says it's not of ourselves. It's all God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A couple of days ago going into a convience store a young man asked me if I would buy him something to eat. I told him to get whatever he wanted without reservation.

That was the Holy Spirit in me guiding me to show love. If I didn't have the Spirit to guide me, I would have just avoided him.

Sometimes it doesn't work out that way. My flesh, my selfishness, my laziness gets the better of me and I quinch the Spirit. And then the Spirit convicts me and I learn from my mistake.

It's all part of the wonderous experience of Sanctification.

boxman144 said:

Hello all, I'm back with our friend again,

Recently he posted this video. Are we saved by works, faith and works, or faith alone?

I'd like you guys to be respectful in the comments please, and gently rebuke. Thanks,


boxman144

Click to expand...

You are saved by the grace of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ. The gospel comes first and everything else arrives in second place. We believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and we confess His name (Romans 10:9-10). Anything else is not as critical as the gospel.

HARK! said:

Here is what you said:​

I can find this statement nowhere in scripture.

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Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”