Why are most Christians so accepting of magic

Bible Highlighter said:

Please explain to me how Colossians 2:15-23 undoes what Colossians 3:2 plainly says. Does it not say to set our affections on things above and not on things here on this Earth? Isn't a person setting their affections on things on the Earth when they watch movies that promote various sins? I would say... “yes,” because I used to enjoy watching big budgeted fantasy films that promoted sinful things. I turned a blind eye to the sins that were within them and I tried to rationalize them as being okay to watch. Again, what you reap is what you will sow. What junk you put in is what junk comes back out.

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First off, I'm noticing that you're kicking in reflex without pondering what I've said. Moreover, it seems that you are kind of ignoring what I've said and want me to just fully ingest every bit of what you've so far said. That's not really what I'd call communication.

Secondly, I nowhere said that Colossians 2:5-23 "undoes" your selected verse. What I said was, and more exactingly, is that if we read the previous verses that attend to the themes that Paul was addressing, we find him telling the Colossians not to let anyone disqualify them who presses them to take "much stricter, legalistic measures" in order to "be spiritual."

So again, pay attention to my overall set of statements and don't just hone in on some one thing I've said and then hold a magnifiying glass up to that alone. You seem to be interpreting me in the same way you're interpreting and trying to apply what Paul wrote. I didn't say you are wholly wrong. I said that I think you're correct to encourage a more holy oriented frame of mind and heart, and it is often better to avoid things in the world that have embedded within them some questionable ideas. At the same time, we're not going actually become better Christians or even more holy by simply applying strictures of "Don't touch, don't taste, and do not handle" in all things that aren't specifically Christian. And that's all I'm saying.

More specifically, try not to come across to other fellow Christians in a way that can be taken like you're judging them, measuring their quality based on some general interests they have that haven't been fully disclosed in all of their detail. Each instance might not be identical to another.

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, you can either explain opinion on 1 John 2:15-17, Matthew 5:28-30, and Colossians 3:2. or you can keep making excuses in not doing so.

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Not an excuse. Simply just not going to bow to your demands.

2PhiloVoid said:

First off, I'm noticing that you're kicking in reflex without pondering what I've said. Yet, it seems that you are kind of ignoring what I've said and want me to just fully ingest every bit of what you've so far said. That's not really what I'd call communication.

Secondly, I nowhere said that Colossians 2:5-23 "undoes" your selected verse. What I said was, and more exactlingly, is that if we read the previous verses that attend to the themes that Paul was addressing, we find him telling the Colossians not to let anyone disqualify them who presses them to take "much sticter measures" in order to "be spiritual."

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Okay, lets look at what Colossians 2:5-23 says.

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:14).

What is the handwriting of ordinances that were against us mentioned in Colossians 2:14?

Well, this would be things like the sabbath, dietary laws, etc. (See: Colossians 2:16). So this not be in reference to the NT Scriptures that give an account of the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.

For it says: “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ” (Colossians 2:16-17).

The Old Law focused on certain dietary restrictions, and in keeping certain festivals, new moon observances, and sabbath ceremonies. These are the things that are a shadow. It is not talking about worldly things like sinful movies.

It also says:
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind.” (Colossians 2:18).

I don't see how false humility and the worship of angels relates to what you are saying how I am misinterpreting Colossians 3:2, either.

It would be more helpful if you can explain why you think Colossians 2:5-23 refutes my understanding on Colossians 3:2. You just threw up the passage as if it explains everything. But this to me is a dodge. Anyone can throw around verses, but if they cannot explain them in what they say, then they really don't know what they are saying.

Isilwen said:

Not an excuse. Simply just not going to bow to your demands.

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Here on the forums I explain verses for others even if I know they are not going to read it and accept those verses. Why do I do that? Because I know other people can come across this forum and read what I have written so as to help them to see what God's Word is saying, and they could potentially accept what I have to say. Are you interested in doing the same thing?

I believe you don't know what these verses are really saying, and thus, this is why you are not explaining them.

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe you don't know what these verses are really saying, and thus, this is why you are not explaining them.

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Do you know what they say about assumptions?

I told you why I am not doing as you ask.

Bible Highlighter said:

Okay, lets look at what Colossians 2:5-23 says.

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:14).

What is the handwriting of ordinances that were against us mentioned in Colossians 2:14?

Well, this would be things like the sabbath, dietary laws, etc. (See: Colossians 2:16). So this not be in reference to the NT Scriptures that give an account of the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.

For it says: “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ” (Colossians 2:16-17).

The Old Law focused on certain dietary restrictions, and in keeping certain festivals, new moon observances, and sabbath ceremonies. These are the things that are a shadow. It is not talking about worldly things like sinful movies.

It also says:
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind.” (Colossians 2:18).

I don't see how false humility and the worship of angels relates to what you are saying how I am misinterpreting Colossians 3:2, either.

It would be more helpful if you can explain why you think Colossians 2:5-23 refutes my understanding on Colossians 3:2. You just threw up the passage as if it explains everything. But this to me is a dodge. Anyone can throw around verses, but if they cannot explain them in what they say, then they really don't know what they are saying.

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Shouldn't we back up to Colossians 2:4-23 rather than just looking at 2:5-23? What we really should be doing is a step by step exegesis of the entire letter of Colossians, don't you think? But granted, that would take a long time and I don't have that kind of time at the moment. And I can work with what you've posted anyway, so let's stick with that then: Colossians 2:5-23.

Taking into account what you're explaining about Paul's reference to impositions of the Law made upon the Colossian Christians by supposed "Super Authorities," you and I know that Paul was telling the Colossians not to allow themselves to be taken off the narrow path and the focus we should have on Jesus our Lord. And I don't disagree with that.

I also don't disagree with you that there are some sinful examples of media out there in our society. Some movies and games and whatever are obviously not something we should actually engage in. But what I'm saying in the overall context of THIS thread is that just because some book or movie or game has a fictionalized "magic" in it (which is not really magic at all) doesn't automatically make it something that all Christians everywhere and for all time have to avoid in all cases.

Should we be discerning in the kinds of games, movies and books we engage? Of course we should! But being legalistic about an application of discernment isn't the same thing as recognizing our personal involvement with every sin that Paul then lists out in Colossians 3:3-17. We don't have to put up with ultra-strict spiritual authorities telling us to listen to them because they claim some special insight or status. On the other hand, we do have to consider how our attachments to the world, along with our own personal attitudes to certain ideas the world creates, affect our Christian walk.

So, I think you and I are in essential agreement that as Christians, we should all be looking to cut our affections off from things in the world that obviously have ideas which negatively and sinfully affect our thoughts and behavior. However, this doesn't mean giving up every single thing in the world that doesn't have a "Christian patent" stamped upon it.

Isilwen said:

Do you know what they say about assumptions?

I told you why I am not doing as you ask.

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I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to help others out in explaining the Bible.
So the ball is back in your court.

Bible Highlighter said:

I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to help others out in explaining the Bible.

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Because I don't believe that is your true motive behind you wanting me to do this.

2PhiloVoid said:

Shouldn't we back up to Colossians 2:4-23 rather than just looking at 2:5-23?

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You were the one who first mentioned Colossians 2:5-23. So you would be criticizing your own quotation of the Bible.

You said:

Taking into account what you're explaining about Paul's reference to impositions of the Law made upon the Colossian Christians by supposed "Super Authorities," you and I know that Paul was telling the Colossians not to allow themselves to be taken off the narrow path and the focus we should have on Jesus our Lord. And I don't disagree with that.

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What Law was being pushed upon them is key in understanding. It would be the ordinances that were nailed to the cross from the Old Law (i.e. things like the Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, and circumcision, etc.). This would not be any New Covenant Laws promoted by Jesus and His followers.

You said:

I also don't disagree with you that there are some sinful examples of media out there in our society. Some movies and games and whatever are obviously not something we should actually engage in. But what I'm saying in the overall context of THIS thread is that just because some book or movie or game has a fictionalized "magic" in it (which is not really magic at all) doesn't automatically make it something that all Christians everywhere and for all time have to avoid in all cases.

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It is written:

"There shall not be found among you anyone who make his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord ….” (Deuteronomy 18:10).

This is a sin that is clearly condemned in the Bible. To fantasize about this sin is okay (even in the most loose way) means we can fantasize (in a loose way) about other sins are okay like fornication, drunkenness, murder, etc.

Children have already stated they want to cast spells, and work witchcraft as per their influence of Harry Potter. So your protest that there is no problem is only your own imagination.

Please read this article here:

A LETTER FROM AN EX-WITCH ABOUT HARRY POTTER

The emphasis on the story is that Harry Potter is learning how to become a master wizard. In the first movie, he goes to an occult school called Hogwarts, which will teach him how to become a wizard. Again, need I remind you that Deuteronomy 18:10 condemns witchcraft.

At first glance, it just looks to be harmless fantasy entertainment. However, here is the hook. After watching this kind of movie and reading these types of books – all emphasizing the possibility that supernatural power is real and that you can learn how to tap into it – some children, teenagers, and adults are going to really wonder – does this kind of supernatural power really exist and if so, can I learn how to do it?

Once the desire to find these answers is imparted into someone as a result of the suggestions planted by these books and movie – what do you think someone is going to do next? This person is going to start seeking after more information to see if witchcraft is real and if this kind of supernatural power can be obtained through their methods.

And where all they going to turn to?

The bookstores and the internet. And what are they going to find if they go to their local bookstore – tons of books on witchcraft, how to become a witch, how to form a coven, how to cast spells and make love potions, etc.

And once they start seeking and digging for this information – they are going to find out that there really are people who practice real witchcraft and that real, supernatural, demonic power can be obtained by actually performing some of their rituals and spells.

Source used for some of the paragraphs in this post:
Harry Potter - Witchcraft And The Bible

You said:

Should we be discerning in the kinds of games, movies and books we engage? Of course we should! But being legalistic about an application of discernment isn't the same thing as recognizing our personal involvement with every sin that Paul then lists out in Colossians 3:3-17. We don't have to put up with ultra-strict spiritual authorities telling us to listen to them because they claim some special insight or status. On the other hand, we do have to consider how our attachments to the world, along with our own personal attitudes to certain ideas the world creates, affect our Christian walk.

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I don't see how Colossians 3:3-17 supports your belief that you can watch sin filled movies. Verse 5 says to mortify (i.e. put to death) covetousness. To covet the things of this world would be covetousness as found in 1 John 2:15-17. Love not the world, neither the things in this world. Is not movies filled with things a part of this world? I hear of Christian men getting excited when new big budget movies come out. They love these things. When they should be more excited about the Bible instead.

You said:

So, I think you and I are in essential agreement that as Christians, we should all be looking to cut our affections off from things in the world that obviously have ideas which negatively and sinfully affect our thoughts and behavior. However, this doesn't mean giving up every single thing in the world that doesn't have a "Christian patent" stamped upon it.

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Anything that promotes sin is not something approved of by our Lord Jesus Christ. Marvel movies, James Bond, and Star Trek all promote sinful things.

Bible Highlighter said:

You were the one who first mentioned Colossians 2:5-23. So you would be criticizing your own quotation of the Bible.

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OK. On that point, you're correct! I did do that. My apologies for that minor mix-up.

What Law was being pushed upon them is key in understanding. It would be the ordinances that were nailed to the cross from the Old Law (i.e. things like the Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, and circumcision, etc.). This would not be any New Laws promoted by Jesus and His followers.



It is written:

"There shall not be found among you anyone who make his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord ….” (Deuteronomy 18:10).

This is a sin that is clearly condemned in the Bible. To fantasize about this sin is okay (even in the most loose way) means we can fantasize (in a loose way) about other sins are okay like fornication, drunkenness, murder, etc.

Children have already stated they want to cast spells, and work witchcraft as per their influence of Harry Potter. So your protest that there is no problem is only your own imagination.

Please read this article here:

A LETTER FROM AN EX-WITCH ABOUT HARRY POTTER

The emphasis on the story is that Harry Potter is learning how to become a master wizard. In the first movie, he goes to an occult school called Hogwarts, which will teach him how to become a wizard. Again, need I remind you that Deuteronomy 18:10 condemns witchcraft.

At first glance, it just looks to be harmless fantasy entertainment. However, here is the hook. After watching this kind of movie and reading these types of books – all emphasizing the possibility that supernatural power is real and that you can learn how to tap into it – some children, teenagers, and adults are going to really wonder – does this kind of supernatural power really exist and if so, can I learn how to do it?

Once the desire to find these answers is imparted into someone as a result of the suggestions planted by these books and movie – what do you think someone is going to do next? This person is going to start seeking after more information to see if witchcraft is real and if this kind of supernatural power can be obtained through their methods.

And where all they going to turn to?

The bookstores and the internet. And what are they going to find if they go to their local bookstore – tons of books on witchcraft, how to become a witch, how to form a coven, how to cast spells and make love potions, etc.

And once they start seeking and digging for this information – they are going to find out that there really are people who practice real witchcraft and that real, supernatural, demonic power can be obtained by actually performing some of their rituals and spells.

Source used for some of the paragraphs in this post:
Harry Potter - Witchcraft And The Bible



I don't see how Colossians 3:3-17 supports your belief that you can watch sin filled movies. Verse 5 says to mortify (i.e. put to death) covetousness. To covet the things of this world would be covetousness as found in 1 John 2:15-17. Love not the world, neither the things in this world. Is not movies filled with things a part of this world? I hear of men Christian getting excited when new big budget movies come out. They love these things.



Anything that promotes sin is not something approved of by our Lord Jesus Christ. Marvel movies, James Bond, and Star Trek all promote sinful things.

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Well, I think you overextend yourself here by equivocating between the O.T. Laws against actually partaking in sorcery/witchcraft, like playing with tarot cards, crystal balls, casting supposedly 'real' magic spells, being a Satanist of any kind, and so on and so forth, and just reading something like a Dr. Strange comic-book from say, 1964, that has very little or no resemblance to any real-world claims or real world manifestations of magical power, especially where the intent in the fictional story is to represent heroic efforts against fictionalized forms of evil (like those that are supposedly found in other dimensions that, again, don't really exist).

Reading a Dr. Strange comic-book or reading a Hobbit/Lord of the Rings book can't possibly be the same act as that which Saul the King undertook with the Witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28:3-25.

On the other hand, with James Bond being into so many women in his respective stories, we'd have to think twice before just jumping in heels first to watch a Bond movie. But, that's neither here nor there for this thread since we're talking specifically about 'magic.'

I would hope that your stringency wouldn't also have to extend to movies like "Daddy's Home" (2015) since it depicts a divorced couple ... I rather liked that movie.

So, let's not equivocate here. To do so would be a gross violation of both logic and proper Biblical exegesis.

MBM888 said:

I don't know what kind of D&D game your friends were running, but that is far, far from how almost all other games are run. (Sidenote: It's not just kids who play. A fair amount of adults play, and enjoy it...and know it has nothing to do with the real occult. I know conservative, very dedicated Christian friends who love the game. I found it a little boring, tbh.)

We will have to strongly disagree about the Chronicles of Narnia. C. S. Lewis was very much a Christian, and was NOT trying to start anything occultish with his books. I've read the Chronicles many, many times over; they were instrumental in my young faith as a Christian, actually. The kind of magic described in them is NOT the same as what someone practicing magick (with a 'k') in the real world would practice, because that kind isn't possible.

While I understand that HP and similar may make a kid interested in that kind of thing, I feel like that would fall under parental authority, and not Random Stranger Who Doesn't Approve territory. If I had kids, and they wanted to know about the occult because of HP, I would sit them down and explain the difference. I wouldn't yell or get upset (I think that's really what drives these kids in these Christian homes further away is over-reaction instead of love and teaching), but just explain that what they see in HP isn't real, and that the actual occult is very dangerous.

As for cartoon inappropriate content, I don't know why you went there right after Disney; seems a little weird, but I'll roll with you, G. Cartoon inappropriate content (whatever it is you're referring to. Hentai? I really don't know.) would and should be treated the same as any other inappropriate content. Don't watch it. If I caught my (very imaginary) son or daughter watching it, I hope I'd have the fortitude not to yell or get upset. (I'd probably laugh, and they'd probably be more embarrassed than me.) Once the dust settled, I'd probably talk to them seriously and gently about what their bodies are going through (assuming they are tweens or teens), and explain that it's not real any more than HP is. I would try to discuss how that kind of thing puts an unrealistic view on people, and that experience.

Disney is, again, not real. If you aren't comfortable with your kids watching it, that's totally fine! A lot of Christian parents have a strict hold on what their kids can and cannot watch, and I completely understand that, and am not about to tell anyone how to raise their kids.

However...I've also been to Bible college. I've seen what happens when these kids who were denied everything are finally given the freedom to explore life and ask questions. It's one thing to restrict what your kids consume at home, but it's another to be so restrictive that the kids aren't even allowed to ask you about it, or have an open discussion about it.

I've been doing some research about witchcraft lately, and a great many of those who practice come from Christian homes. I don't know all the details, but for some, it seems to be a great deal of bitterness towards their families who wouldn't actually talk about the subject at all, and who don't want to have an open dialogue about it. IMO, that's where the mistake comes in; if you aren't willing to talk with your kids, and also listen to them, then a lot of hurt and miscommunication is going to be had.

To wit, I know a great many Christians who read HP, Narnia, and all the rest, and who watch Disney, who are still very faithful Christians. If you don't want to watch it, and feel like it's not worth the risk, that's fine. Just be aware that not every faithful Christian holds the same viewpoint, and that's okay. We will meet, by and by.

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Very well put! Yes I see no problem with fantasy as long as one knows the truth about the occult and open dialogue is allowed. I mean, kids ARE going to run into these stories in some form (Disney movie, fairy tale, ect) just by being alive in today's world. You can't forbid all contact because it's going to happen one way or another. Just raise your kids well, knowing reality from fiction, and all should be fine

2PhiloVoid said:

Well, I think you overextend yourself here by equivocating between the O.T. Laws against actually partaking in sorcery/witchcraft, like playing with tarot cards, crystal balls, casting supposedly 'real' magic spells, being a Satanist of any kind, and so on and so forth, and just reading something like a Dr. Strange comic-book from say, 1964, that has very little or no resemblance to any real-world claims or real world manifestations of magical power, especially where the intent in the fictional story is to represent heroic efforts against fictionalized forms of evil (like those that are supposedly found in other dimensions that, again, don't really exist).

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First, you have not proven that Colossians 2:4-23 has anything to do with how I am misinterpreting Colossians 3:2. Colossians 3:2 still says: “Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.” So I don't see how your point before in throwing some verses at me in the previous chapter undoes my normal reading on Colossians 3:2. I already read the passage and pointed out a few things that it is saying and it does not defend your view that I am misinterpreting Colossians 3:2.

Second, there is also 1 John 2:15-17 that you have to skate around, too.

For the apostle John says:

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” (1 John 2:15-17).

Okay. This passage says:

#1. Love not the world.
#2. Love not the things in the world
(This would include the world's movies, books, games, politics, etc.).
#3. If we love the world, the love of the Father is not in us (Meaning God is not in us).
#4. All that is in the world: The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of God but it is of the world. (Note: See how it transitions in the last part of the verse to loving the world with loving the things in the world?).
#5. The world passes away.
#6. The lusts of the things in the world will also pass away, too.
#7. But he that does the will of God will abide forever.

You said:

Reading a Dr. Strange comic-book or reading a Hobbit/Lord of the Rings book can't possibly be the same act as that which Saul the King undertook with the Witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28:3-25.

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Jesus says, “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

This is a fantasy. A guy looking upon a woman in lust is a sexual fantasy and it is not real sex. Yet, Jesus says that this person doing this has committed adultery already with this woman in his heart, and he is in danger of his body being cast into hellfire as a result of doing so (Unless they repent of course).

So Jesus condemns mind sins. Jesus is condemning a sexual fantasy. Yet, you say magic in a fantasy setting is not like real magic because it is fantasy. Yet, Jesus does not make such a distinction when a person fantasizes about a woman. Jesus did not say that lusting after a woman was okay because it purely fantasy and that is different than actually having real sex. Witchcraft is just as much of a sin that God condemns as adultery.

It would be no different than reading a comic book on inappropriate content. It would lead one to think that such a sin is okay and normal. The same came be said when you read a Dr. Strange comic book. You would be fantasizing about something that God condemns in His Holy Word. It does not matter if it is exactly identical. The basic concept is there. Dr. Strange casts spells and he uses magic. In God's Word, casting spells in real life would be condemned. So this fictional universe cannot change the reality of sin. It is copying something from reality that we already know about. To say the two are completely different is simply to not be honest with oneself in what Dr. Strange is and does. Yes, he is a fictional person, but he practices witchcraft or magic. If he was a real person today (as close to the confines of our universe God created), and he lived during the time of the Israelites, he would have been stoned by the Israelites if they caught him because he practices witchcraft or magic.

Bible Highlighter said:

People have...

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I had a nice, long reply laid out, but honestly, I don't feel it will do either of us any good. Neither of us are going to change our viewpoints, and I feel like continuing this conversation would be similar to 'casting pearls before swine'. (What's more, I don't see how we can, if you're not willing to discuss how it's applied to your own life in a real, relational way.)

All I can say is, when you're in a romantic relationship, you can't just be concerned about your own viewpoint and what you personally want; you have to consider the other person's desires and feelings. It's not a bad thing! Just how life is. And even if you marry someone who, right now, has your exact same viewpoints, there's always the potential for their viewpoints to change.

D&D isn't going to turn your kids into real-life satanists or witches, videogames aren't the downfall of religious society, and it's okay to have a hobby that has nothing to do with your religious faith. (Again, unless you're collecting the dead hair of prostitutes or something.)

Bible Highlighter said:

I played role playing games a good part of my youth back in the 80's and 90's. So yes. I am very familiar with them and those who played them. I also did not practice the occult and or magic while playing any role playing games. But I remember that reading such material led to wanting to see if I could cast a real spell. I asked myself: What if it was not fantasy and it could be real? Again, I am not the only person on the planet to have these kinds of thoughts. So to say that these games do not influence people into the occult is simply not true.

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I'm not asking you to share your personal information here, so please don't feel like you have to.

IMO, it depends on a few things: How old the person is, first of all. "A kid" for me, at this point, could mean anyone from just being born to roughly in their late 20s. Second, it depends on how active their parents are in their lives, and how the parents handle these things. For younger kids (let's say preteen and younger), playing pretend and wondering about these things is normal and healthy. However, it's a pretty quick lesson to learn that one can't produce fireballs from one's fingertips. If it's a teenager...eh, I leave that to the parents. That's a whole different matzo ball. If it's someone 18+, all I can say is that while there might be occasional oddball curiosity, I don't personally know anyone who became a Wiccan solely because D&D or similar introduced them to the concept of magic. (If we're going to go that direction, it could be argued that they could become interested in it just by reading the Bible, since it talks about it so much, and lays such moratoriums against it. And it's natural for kids to rebel, especially in religiously-oppressive households.)

While I am sure there are women RPG players out there, from my experience, woman normally did not get into playing roleplaying games.

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The times, they are a-changing! The short span of time I played, there were several of us ladies. Adults and everything. (I was in my 30s, and it was the late 2000s.) At times, I think we almost out-numbered the guys.

Check out these posts here, and here.

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Perhaps later. This whole thing has already gone way off the rails, and way away from what I was researching.

Whether the story is fictional or not, the fact of the matter is that the sin is very real. You cannot change the reality of sin. Think about the kind of sin you hate the most in this world. Would you then read books that glorified that particular sin? Sure, the story is fictional, but the sin being promoted can be fantasized about. Jesus condemned looking upon another in lust in Matthew 5:28-30. So to say that one cannot be condemned by fantasizing is simply not true.

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I never said sin wasn't real. If watching or doing something causes you to stumble in your faith, then don't do it. My point was that, what causes you personally to stumble isn't the same thing that will cause me to stumble in mine.

I don't know what lust has to do with D&D, or this discussion in particular. (Unless you were playing a very special campaign.) Don't do things that make you lust, I guess. But I don't feel like I should have to say that.

Believers do not truly learn the Bible through attending Bible College.

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Holy cow, is that ever the truth! That may be the first thing you've said I agree with! While it definitely helped me in my personal faith journey, I graduated feeling a severe sense of let-down, academically-speaking. But I didn't really have any good guides to that kind of thing.

Believers learn by the anointing of the Holy Spirit and not men (1 John 2:27).

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A discussion of what the Holy Spirit is and how it influences us is an entirely different topic I'm not mentally prepared to have (again) this evening. It also has little to do with our discussion.

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.” (Isaiah 55:1).

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How do you define a faithful Christian?
Is it just going to church?

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Church is a huge part of it, of which I haven't been faithful lately. (THANKS COVID! >_<)

The Apostle's Creed pretty much sums it up for me, though I interpret 'catholic' there as including Protestants, and not just the official, pope-loving Catholic church. (Personally, I also believe people should be full-immersion baptized as fully-aware adults, but I also know from experience that God understands when such things are practical, and when they aren't.)

I fully believe finding a real, solid group of believers to share your faith with is absolutely essential to growing our faith! I believe without that connection, it's extremely difficult to maintain our journey. Is it possible to be faithful without that? Yes. Sometimes things happen. Is it preferable? No, absolutely not!

Bible Highlighter said:

Is not possible to look at women in lust and sin because of these kinds of movies? Is it not possible to swear like in a movie because they are doing it?

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So, as a lady, I just want to say that there's lots of Christian dudes out there (and dudes of other, very demanding faiths) who are plagued by lust even without modern media. Apparently, us females just existing as we do can be enough. And it's super-irritating.

It makes me wonder if the problem of lust has less to do with women and images existing, and more to do with the mentality and understanding of the individual person.

I'm not saying that anyone should go out and watch or read or listen to something that will make the temptation worse; don't do that, actually. I'm just saying that, even when us ladies are doing all we can to not make dudes stumble (and trust me when I say I took that one as far as I could without actually becoming a nun of some sort), we are still blamed horribly for dudes not being able to control their own thoughts and actions.

Anyroad, carry on; just felt the need to put in my $.02.

Bible Highlighter said:

I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to help others out in explaining the Bible.
So the ball is back in your court.

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It's not a matter of not wanting to help people. It's a matter of understanding the best way to help them.

If you go up to a Wiccan, and tell them all the Biblical reasons you think they are wrong without even being willing to sit down and get to know them on a personal level, or what they believe, all they are going to do is roll their eyes and walk away. They have likely heard all the arguments before. It will come across to them more as a desire to bully them into submission of what you in particular say, and less as a desire to understand and care for them as human beings. But, if you make an effort to get to know them, to understand where they are coming from (again, without giving up your own convictions), and are willing to be open, then that will do far, far more than just preaching at people. (Most of a preacher's/reverend's/etc's job isn't the preaching itself; it's the ministry to individuals who are hurt or in pain. It's listening to people, not just talking.)

Perhaps you are a high-functioning autistic. I have a few friends who are. They have a hard time when it comes to interpersonal dialogue. But the fact is, "No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care." The most important verses in the Bible are "Love God, and love others as much as you love yourself." You have to be willing to get personal with people before you tell them how much of the Gospel you know.

To put it simply, you can preach all the Bible knowledge you have all day long, but if you don't actually care about people, they aren't going to care what you have to say.

MBM888 said:

I had a nice, long reply laid out, but honestly, I don't feel it will do either of us any good. Neither of us are going to change our viewpoints, and I feel like continuing this conversation would be similar to 'casting pearls before swine'.

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Matthew 7:6 says, “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

What are dogs?

We read according to the Scriptures:

“But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.” (Matthew 15:26-27).

This was a Canaanite woman, and she was considered a dog or Gentile.

Gentiles were generally considered unbelievers and fools who rejected the one true God (See: Psalms 14, and Romans 3:10-18). Salvation first went out to the Lost house of the tribe of Israel and then by the fall of Israel (i.e. the nation of Israel rejecting their Messiah), salvation went to the unbelieving world of the Gentiles.

So when we speak of dogs, we speak of unbelieving world of Gentiles. In fact, swine was considered an unclean animal. Peter received a vision of unclean animals and he was told to eat them. But this was in relation to the inclusion of the Gentiles (with Peter preaching the good news to Cornelius, a Gentile). In other words, casting pearls before swine would be in reference to unbelievers. We are not supposed to cast our precious experiences involving God to unbelievers or share the really deep things of God within His Word to those who reject God. I am not an unbeliever, so your quote of our Lord in how I am like swine and you would be casting pearls before me does not apply.

You said:

(What's more, I don't see how we can, if you're not willing to discuss how it's applied to your own life in a real, relational way.)

All I can say is, when you're in a romantic relationship, you can't just be concerned about your own viewpoint and what you personally want; you have to consider the other person's desires and feelings. It's not a bad thing! Just how life is. And even if you marry someone who, right now, has your exact same viewpoints, there's always the potential for their viewpoints to change.

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Well, making it personal is a standard tactic to those who do not really want to discuss God's Word. If a person's belief cannot be supported with Scripture, they make it about the individual instead.

It is written,


Also, the forum rules encourage so as not to cause heated debate that we are not to address the poster or the individual, but we are to stick to the topic with Scripture.

This is not Facebook, and or Twitter. I am not here to share my personal life. I am here to talk about the Word of God. So that is all you will primarily get out of me because I am against things like Facebook, and Twitter that ruines people's lives.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? It doesn't seem you do. I said that I wanted to cast a spell by my playing D&D and you don't appear to believe. This is why trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do.

You said:

D&D isn't going to turn your kids into real-life satanists or witches,

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Spells vs. Prayers -
A Clash of World Views:

Here are the two world views:

1. The Magic World View teaches that there exists in the universe a neutral force, like gravity, which is magic. In this world-view, there is no sovereign God; but rather the universe is run like a gigantic piece. Magic's application is the understanding of how to manipulate the universe to get what you want. The analogy would be of putting a right coin in the slot of a vending machine and pushing the button. You automatically get your candy -assuming you used the right coin and pushed the right button. The Magic World View is like that. If you know the right technology (spell, ritual, incantation, etc.) the universe must respond-just like the light must go on if you flip the switch. It is automatic, and almost scientifically repeatable. This view under-girds the spell, and is obviously different from…
2. The Judeo-Christian World View (i.e. the Bible) teaches, on the contrary, that the universe is in control of a sovereign Person, God. To get "results," He must be asked. This asking is what both Jews and Christians call "prayer." It implies beseeching from a position of inferiority. I am the creature, God is the Creator. Thus, it is more like a child going up to a parent and asking for candy, than getting it from a vending machine. The parent may say "yes," "no," or "Wait till later." Similarly, in the Bible, there is no way to automatically manipulate God to get what you want, because He is an omnipotent Person. Additionally, God says that magic is deep and abominable sin (see Exod. 22:18, Lev. 19:31, Lev. 20:6, Deut. 18:10, 1Sam. 15:23, 2Kgs. 21:6, Is. 8:19, Gal. 5:20, Rev. 21:8, Rev. 22:15).

Now obviously, these two worldviews cannot exist in the same moral universe. They cannot both be true. The reason is that in the "universe" of Dungeons and Dragons magic is neutral, and can be used by "good guys" or by "bad guys." It is like "The Force" in Star Wars. This magical morality pervades D&D, and it is utterly in opposition to the Word of God.

Source:
Chick.com: Straight Talk on Dungeons and Dragons

Here is another snippet from the article:

I was a witch high priest (Alexandrian tradition) during the period 1973-84. During some of that period (1976-80) I was also involved in hardcore Satanism. We studied and practiced and trained more than 175 people in the Craft. Our "covendom" was in Milwaukee, Wisconsin; just a short drive away from the world headquarters of TSR, the company which makes Dungeons and Dragons in Lake Geneva, WI. In the late 1970's, a couple of the game writers actually came to my wife and I as prominent "sorcerers" in the community. They wanted to make certain the rituals were authentic. For the most part, they are.

These two guys sat in our living room and took copious notes from us on how to make sure the rituals were truly right "from the book," (this meaning that they actually came from magic grimoires or workbooks). They seemed satisfied with what they got and left us thankfully.

Back in 1986, a fellow appeared on The 700 Club who was a former employee and game writer for TSR. He testified right on the show that he got into a wrangle with the management there because he saw that the rituals were too authentic and could be dangerous. He protested to his boss and was basically told that this was the intent—to make the games as real as possible. He felt conscience-stricken (even though he was not a Christian at the time), and felt he had to resign from the company.

Source:
Chick.com: Straight Talk on Dungeons and Dragons

You said:

videogames aren't the downfall of religious society,

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Is it the best use of our time in playing video games?
One could be helping other believers or giving to the poor or preaching the good news.

Are video games innocent?
Many games are filled with violence, and theft, and sexual overtones (that can lead to wrong sexual thoughts). The eye is the window of the soul. So what are you feeding yourself and putting within you? Colossians 3:2 says we are to focus on things above and not things here upon this earth.

Here is a testimony of an ex gamer who is now Christian.

A Christian's Inspirational Story: How to Completely Free Oneself From Gaming Addiction Is No Longer a Difficult Question | GOSPEL OF THE DESCENT OF THE KINGDOM

For him: Video games controlled his life.

The Dark Side of Gaming

You said:

and it's okay to have a hobby that has nothing to do with your religious faith. (Again, unless you're collecting the dead hair of prostitutes or something.)

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Do all things to the glory of Jesus Christ. Even your hobbies should be done to the glory of Jesus Christ. We cannot separate God from our life and say this is my part of my life and then I make time for God. No, no. We are temples of the Holy Ghost. We are to live and breathe and die for our Savior because He died for us. To do any less would be an insult to what He has done for us. We are bought and paid for with a price and we are not our own. We are to offer our bodies as a willing sacrifice unto God which is our reasonable service. You should know all this if you know your Bible.

MBM888 said:

I'm not asking you to share your personal information here, so please don't feel like you have to.

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This point has already been addressed. No need to repeat myself.

You said:

I don't personally know anyone who became a Wiccan solely because D&D or similar introduced them to the concept of magic. (If we're going to go that direction, it could be argued that they could become interested in it just by reading the Bible, since it talks about it so much, and lays such moratoriums against it. And it's natural for kids to rebel, especially in religiously-oppressive households.)

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First, Jesus condemns the mind sin of looking upon a woman in lust in Matthew 5:28-30. This is a person fantasizing about a woman. Jesus said that a person who does so committs adultery in their heart and they are in danger of being cast bodily into hellfire (unless they repent of course). So if we cannot fantasize sexually about another, then this means we cannot fantasize about other sins, either. We cannot fantasize about witchcraft and or spell casting as being okay to God. God's Holy Word condemns witchcraft. But because it is not an openly public problem in our society it gets a free pass. It's just written off as fantasy and it is okay. So what other sins can we fantasize about that is okay? Therein lies the problem.

Second, you say that a person can be interested in witchcraft by reading the Bible. Wow. That is pretty messed up. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). But you are saying God's Holy Word can lead a person into sin? If so, that is not right.

You said:

Perhaps later. This whole thing has already gone way off the rails, and way away from what I was researching.

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in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, a magic spell-book is used.



C.S. Lewis has young Lucy casting a spell from a magic spell-book, in a children's novel. The spell turns some invisible creatures visible. Earlier, they had been hexed by a wizard for their disobedience to him. He had cast a spell or hex that caused them to look very ugly. One of the creatures' children had read a spell from the spell-book to make them invisible.

When Lucy opened the spell-book, she found it fascinating. C.S. Lewis writes:
"She went up to the desk and laid her hand on the book; her fingers tingled when she touched it as if it were full of electricity. She tried to open it but couldn't at first; this, however, was only because it was fastened by two leaden clasps, and when she had undone these it opened easily enough. And what a book it was! It was written, not printed; written in a clear, even hand, with thick downstrokes and thin upstrokes, very large, easier than print, and so beautiful that Lucy stared at it for a whole minute and forgot about reading it. The paper was crisp and smooth and a nice smell came from it; and in the margins, and round the big coloured capital letters at the beginning of each spell, there were pictures." [5] [underlining added]


(The wizard, Coriakin, from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader)

Notice how C.S. Lewis describes this magic spell-book that the main character beholds with fascination? Children reading this novel are being told that magic spells and magic spell-books are "beautiful." Parents should be concerned what their children are being taught by Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and other fantasy stories. The magic in these stories and in the Narnia books is not just fictional.

Real witches use magic for many purposes. Spell-casting is practiced by witches today and magic spell books can be found in occult bookstores. Bob Johnson, a practitioner in the occult, wrote:

“The tools of magick are spells, talismans (charms and objects), potions, rituals, and ceremonies. They are all used to achieve a desired result. For example, witchcraft has spells for obtaining money.... Witchcraft spells can get you that raise...” [6]

What does the Bible say about witchcraft and magic? Deuteronomy 18 is very clear ...


Deuteronomy 18:9-14 (underlining added)[9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. [10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, [11] Or a charmer, or a consulter withfamiliar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer."


Source:
End Times Blog: The Real Witchcraft of Narnia Exposed - Narnia's Occult Agenda

You said:

I never said sin wasn't real. If watching or doing something causes you to stumble in your faith, then don't do it. My point was that, what causes you personally to stumble isn't the same thing that will cause me to stumble in mine.

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We are not talking about eating certain foods that might be offensive to others here. That is the context and view of what Scripture talks about in relation to having a liberty in Christ. There is no liberty in Christ to fantasize about sinful things that God hates.

You said:

Holy cow, is that ever the truth! That may be the first thing you've said I agree with! While it definitely helped me in my personal faith journey, I graduated feeling a severe sense of let-down, academically-speaking. But I didn't really have any good guides to that kind of thing.

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This tells you that you cannot learn the Bible by men, but only by the working of the Holy Spirit.
We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15) (KJB).
For God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

You said:

A discussion of what the Holy Spirit is and how it influences us is an entirely different topic I'm not mentally prepared to have (again) this evening. It also has little to do with our discussion.

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But our mind should be prepared to always talk about the things of God. If not, is our mind truly focused on things above like it is supposed to be? (See: Colossians 3:2).

You said:

Church is a huge part of it, of which I haven't been faithful lately. (THANKS COVID! >_<)

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We should make time to study God's Word every day and we should not need any man to teach us.

You said:

The Apostle's Creed pretty much sums it up for me, though I interpret 'catholic' there as including Protestants, and not just the official, pope-loving Catholic church. (Personally, I also believe people should be full-immersion baptized as fully-aware adults, but I also know from experience that God understands when such things are practical, and when they aren't.)

I fully believe finding a real, solid group of believers to share your faith with is absolutely essential to growing our faith! I believe without that connection, it's extremely difficult to maintain our journey. Is it possible to be faithful without that? Yes. Sometimes things happen. Is it preferable? No, absolutely not!

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While fellowship is important, I have been on fire for God for many years and I did not need to attend a large church to do so. The fire of God comes from God and not in being around a large group of believers always. For me: It is more about connecting with God and if I happen to run into others who believe as I do.... “Praise God.” But yes, I do have fellowship with a few close brothers. It's not a huge number, and it is not always every day, but we do get together regularily. They are my friends in Christ and they are close to me. That to me is true fellowship.

MBM888 said:

So, as a lady, I just want to say that there's lots of Christian dudes out there (and dudes of other, very demanding faiths) who are plagued by lust even without modern media. Apparently, us females just existing as we do can be enough. And it's super-irritating.

It makes me wonder if the problem of lust has less to do with women and images existing, and more to do with the mentality and understanding of the individual person.

I'm not saying that anyone should go out and watch or read or listen to something that will make the temptation worse; don't do that, actually. I'm just saying that, even when us ladies are doing all we can to not make dudes stumble (and trust me when I say I took that one as far as I could without actually becoming a nun of some sort), we are still blamed horribly for dudes not being able to control their own thoughts and actions.

Anyroad, carry on; just felt the need to put in my $.02.

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Your missing the point of what movies do. In movies, they commit sexual immorality, show sex scenes, show naked women, and or show cleavage, and or push their butts up against the camera. Women have become portrayed as sex objects in films, and it is degrading to women. It's not how God's Holy Word protrays how a women should be like.

Bible Highlighter said:

First, you have not proven that Colossians 2:4-23 has anything to do with how I am misinterpreting Colossians 3:2. Colossians 3:2 still says: “Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.” So I don't see how your point before in throwing some verses at me in the previous chapter undoes my normal reading on Colossians 3:2. I already read the passage and pointed out a few things that it is saying and it does not defend your view that I am misinterpreting Colossians 3:2.

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Sure it has something to do with it. In Chapter 3 of the letter to the Colossians, Paul continues on in verse 1 by using a conditional phrase to connect everything you're referring to back to the previous portions I have referred to. And this grammatical connection joins these seemingly independent flows of ideas......together.

Second, there is also 1 John 2:15-17 that you have to skate around, too.

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Y'know, starting out with pejorative language as you're doing here isn't really called for, BH! I'm not "skating around."

Do you think my use of a book on exegesis here, such as A Handbook of New Testament Exegesis by Craig L. Blomberg, is unacceptable? Or is Craig L. Blomberg not Christian enough for you?

For the apostle John says:

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” (1 John 2:15-17).

Okay. This passage says:

#1. Love not the world.
#2. Love not the things in the world
(This would include the world's movies, books, games, politics, etc.).
#3. If we love the world, the love of the Father is not in us (Meaning God is not in us).
#4. All that is in the world: The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of God but it is of the world. (Note: See how it transitions in the last part of the verse to loving the world with loving the things in the world?).
#5. The world passes away.
#6. The lusts of the things in the world will also pass away, too.
#7. But he that does the will of God will abide forever.



Jesus says, “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

This is a fantasy. A guy looking upon a woman in lust is a sexual fantasy and it is not real sex. Yet, Jesus says that this person doing this has committed adultery already with this woman in his heart, and he is in danger of his body being cast into hellfire as a result of doing so (Unless they repent of course).

So Jesus condemns mind sins. Jesus is condemning a sexual fantasy. Yet, you say magic in a fantasy setting is not like real magic because it is fantasy. Yet, Jesus does not make such a distinction when a person fantasizes about a woman. Jesus did not say that lusting after a woman was okay because it purely fantasy and that is different than actually having real sex. Witchcraft is just as much of a sin that God condemns as adultery.

It would be no different than reading a comic book on inappropriate content. It would lead one to think that such a sin is okay and normal. The same came be said when you read a Dr. Strange comic book. You would be fantasizing about something that God condemns in His Holy Word. It does not matter if it is exactly identical. The basic concept is there. Dr. Strange casts spells and he uses magic. In God's Word, casting spells in real life would be condemned. So this fictional universe cannot change the reality of sin. It is copying something from reality that we already know about. To say the two are completely different is simply to not be honest with oneself in what Dr. Strange is and does. Yes, he is a fictional person, but he practices witchcraft or magic. If he was a real person today (as close to the confines of our universe God created), and he lived during the time of the Israelites, he would have been stoned by the Israelites if they caught him because he practices witchcraft or magic.

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Unfortunately, you keep bringing in the notion of sexual sin into this discussion. I think that to do so is an equivocation.