Crowns, heads and horns , in Rev 13, 12, 17

Douggg said:

The ten kings hate the harlot. The harlot has an inscription on her head - Mystery, Babylon the Great, mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.

It does not mean that the harlot is herself Babylon the Great. But that she has been influenced by Babylon the Great.

The harlot is the Vatican. The ten kings, ten leaders of the EU, will burn the Vatican to the ground, once the beast comes to power.

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Babylon was the first kingdom to conquer Judah. Nebuchadnezzar converted to Judaism or whatever religion you would call it back then. Then by the end of the empire's control over Judea (Belshazzar's reign), the kingdom had gone from faithful to faithless.

The same is true of the Roman Empire. It was the first to conquer Judea while the new covenant was being established. It had extended tolerance toward Christianity in AD 313, but by 1806 had lost its zeal. First they had the East-West Schism in 1054, then the Protestant Reformation in 1517, the English Reformation in 1532, and Darwin wrote his famous On the Origin of Species in 1859. The Roman Empire lasted longer because the kingdom of God is an eternal kingdom. However, the Catholic Church has made so many compromises and additions to basic Christianity that some say it is reaching a Pharisaic condition.

Yes, finally, something we can agree on. The Vatican is Babylon the Great. But also the prostitute, and Rome. Which is why the seven heads are recent, Italian kings, and why they are also seven mountains.

Douggg said:

I understand you are calling the seven kings Italian kings, but the fourth kingdom was not called the Italian empire. It appears that you are identifying the kingdoms as countries - rather than empires?

The Babylon empire covered many countries, as did the Medo-Persian empire, as did the Greek empire, as did the Roman Empire.

Those empires covered geographic territories.

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The seven Italian kings/heads belong to the beast from the sea in Revelation 13, not the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7, which has 11 horns. I'm identifying the kingdoms as empires with rises and falls—spanning multiple countries.

Douggg said:

There has been no "Italian" empire. The 7 kings in Revelation 17 are related by bloodline, not nationality.

The fourth beast in Daniel 7 does not have 7 heads, but one head. That one head is the beast person in Revelation. The beast person is the one head on the beast in Revelation 13, flanked by 6 other heads.

Revelation gives additional information about the fourth kingdom, not found in Daniel 7. There are no seven heads on the Daniel 7 fourth beast.

The five fallen, the one is, and the one yet to come - are related, of one bloodline, not by nationality.

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How can you say that? The 4th beast in Daniel did not have 7 heads, or even 1 head! It had 11 horns!

"After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. While I was thinking about the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the previous horns were plucked out before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like human eyes, and a mouth uttering great boasts (Dan. 7:7–8)."

The beasts in Daniel and Revelation are different. The 4th beast in Daniel 7 had 11 horns, while the 1st beast in Revelation 13 had 7 heads and 10 horns. The fact that the 1st beast in Revelation 13 had two sets of kings, 7 heads and 10 horns, implies that it was not an empire at all, but an alliance between two kingdoms.

Axis powers - Wikipedia

And Revelation 17:12 implies that the 10 horns had no kingdom as yet.

"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour (Rev. 17:12)."

German Confederation - Wikipedia

The Axis Powers were not an Italian empire, they were possibly a "Neo-Roman empire," if call it that, you must. But I prefer Axis Powers.

Douggg said:

Minky, in Daniel7:7 the fourth beast had iron teeth. And in Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

See that? The ten horns were in his head. You could say on his head, in his head, same thing.+

The fact is that the fourth beast in Daniel 7 had one head with 11 horns.

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Granted, but when Daniel approached a bystander and requested of him the meaning of his vision, he didn't place any significance on the head.

“This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him (Dan. 7:23–27).’"

Every beast has a head; they are living things. There was no meaning for the head. The meaning was attached to the ten horns and the little one that subdued the three before it. If there had been any meaning attached to the head, which is a prerequisite for horns (since they come up out of it), it would have been explained by the bystander who interpreted Daniel's vision. When Daniel had the vision of the ram and the goat, all aspects that had any significance were explained by Gabriel.

Douggg said:

In Daniel 8, Gabriel spoke of the vision of the ram, the goat, the four notable horns, and of the vision of the little horn, the 2300 days, the transgression of desolation, the cleansing of the temple - time of the end parts in blue.

In Daniel 9:23, Gabriel referenced the vision of the little horn person. Daniel first encountered Gabriel in Daniel 8, in his vision in Daniel 8.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

So in Daniel 9, Gabriel is adding more information about the little horn person. The little horn person will be the prince who shall come. Who will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years (playing out the role of being the Antichrist, the King of Israel, coming in his own name).

the little horn>the Antichrist>the beast.

Everything about the little horn person is not contained in Daniel 7. Information about him is added as more information about him is revealed in later passages in the bible.

The only way we can know the significance of the head in Daniel 7 that has the ten horns (and the little horn) is by what is in Revelation 13. And understanding of what is in Revelation 13 is gained from what is in Revelation 17.

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The little horn in chapter 7 is different than the one in chapter 8. In chapter 7, he is from the 4th kingdom, Rome. In chapter 8, he is from the kingdom of Greece. The prince who shall come was Vespasian. And there is no "7 year" tribulation. The great tribulation is the 7 trumpets.

To confirm a covenant, it must already exist. The covenant that existed at the book of Daniel was:

“I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness,
I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,
And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison (Isa. 42:6–7)."

Paul was called to be a light to the gentiles.

"Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, 'It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first. Since you repudiate it and consider yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us,

‘I have appointed You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You may bring salvation to the end of the earth (Act. 13:46–47).’”

And this fulfills the 70 weeks prophecy. The decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem went out in 458 BC. It was Artaxerxes' Letter to Ezra (Ezr. 7:8, 11–26). Jesus was anointed (baptized) in the Jordan River in AD 26. Three and a half years later, he put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering by allowing himself to hang from a tree on behalf of all mankind (Jhn. 2:13, 6:4, 11:55). Again, three and a half more years later, Paul converted to Christianity after his encounter with Jesus on the road to Demascus (Gal. 1:18, 2:1).

Council of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

Council of Jerusalem (AD 50)
Galatians 2:1 (AD 36)
Galatians 1:18 (AD 33)

Conversion of Paul (AD 33)
Crucifixion of Jesus (AD 30)
Baptism of Jesus (AD 26)
7 years (70th week)

458 BC: Artaxerxes' Letter to Ezra
409 BC: Jerusalem restored and rebuilt
AD 26: Baptism of Jesus
AD 30: Crucifixion of Jesus
AD 33: Conversion of Paul
490 years

Jesus and Paul fulfilled the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy. Seventy weeks were determined to accomplish all this:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy (Dan. 9:24)."

Seventy weeks, not 354 weeks (2478 years).

Going back to the great tribulation, it is the 7 trumpets. Revelation 7 says the great multitude in white robes are they that have come out of the great tribulation:

"Then one of the elders responded, saying to me, 'These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?' I said to him, 'My lord, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:13–14).'"

This is only the 2nd time the great tribulation is mentioned in the whole Bible. The first, and only other time, was mentioned in Matthew 24 (and other synoptic gospels). The great multitude in white robes and the 144,000 are in the same section of John's vision. The 144,000 prepares the reader for the great tribulation, the 7 trumpets. Since the 70th week of Daniel's vision was fulfilled by Jesus and Paul, there is no seven-year tribulation. We observe the great tribulation by watching for trumpet catastrophes. The 144,000 are sealed on their foreheads and protected from 4 out of 6 trumpets. The 7th trumpet is the rapture.

"And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, holding the seal of the living God; and he called out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, 'Do not harm the earth, or the sea, or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads (Rev. 7:2–3).'"

Four angels will have power to harm the earth, sea, and trees by sounding their trumpets. This is why the 144,000 prepare us for the trumpets. They are sealed ahead of time so that no harm fall on them.

1st trumpet: a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
2nd trumpet: a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.
3rd trumpet: a third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the waters because they were made bitter.
5th trumpet: they were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Here's why I say the rapture happens at the 7th trumpet:

Revelation 10 says the mystery of God will be finished at the 7th trumpet, as he announced to his servants the prophets:

"Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will no longer be a delay, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He announced to His servants the prophets (Rev. 10:5–7)."

The prophet Hosea wrote:

"Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol?
Shall I redeem them from death?
Death, where are your thorns?
Sheol, where is your sting?
Compassion will be hidden from My sight (Hos. 13:14)."

"Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Cor. 15:51–52)."

The word mystery ties Rev. 10:5–7 to 1 Cor. 15:51–52.

The little horn in Dan. 7 is different that the one in Dan. 8. The one in Dan. 7 is of the Roman Empire, but the one in Dan. 8 is of the Greek Empire.

I challenge you to read Daniel 9:23 again and tell me where he referenced the little horn. I read it and didn't see it; I may have missed it.

Douggg said:

Minky, the little horn is the same person in both chapters. King of fierce countenance (Daniel 8:23) = more stout than his fellows (Daniel 7:20).

Your rationale I think that the Daniel 8 little horn is of the Greek Empire is based on Daniel 8:9 ?

Daniel 8:9 is like a verbal map.

It is not indicating that the little horn is of the Greek Empire, but that when he heads south and east toward Israel he will be come from the location of one of the four break up kingdoms. Which will be Greece - the eastern most frontier of the EU.

The little horn's transgression of desolation and stopping of the daily sacrifice - Gabriel referred to it as "the indignation".

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. [Daniel fainted]

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

End of what? End of the 2300 day prophecy, It is one of the things in Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seal up the vision and prophecy - is just a way of saying finish it up, complete it.

Here is a you tube I made on the issue of the little horn, the vision Gabriel reference in Daniel 9

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Yes, Daniel 8:9 is exactly where it says Antiochus IV Epiphanes will come out of the Greek Empire.

"And out of one of them came a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land (Dan. 8:9)."

And here's how we know it was Antiochus Epiphanes: "And he said to me, 'For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored (Dan. 8:14).'"

It was 3 years (1080 days), 2 intercalary months (60 days) and 10 days (15 Kislev to 25 Kislev) from 15 Kislev 167 BC to 25 Kislev 164 BC (indignation of desolation until the cleansing of the temple). In other words, 1,150 days.

“The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even (Num. 28:4);”

So there were two sacrifices per day, hence 1,150 days.

Sealing up the vision and prophecy—how many prophets have there been since Paul, John, Peter, James, and Jude finished the New Testament? They all knew Jesus. There have been no writers of the Bible since those prophets. That was the sealing up of the vision and prophecy.

There have been 3 "abominations" of desolation. Daniel 8:13 refers to one of them as "the offense [that] causes horror (NASB version)." Your "indignation (referenced above)." The "offense" was a statue of Zeus in the temple and the sacrifice of a pig on the altar in 167 BC (1 Macc. 1:57). Daniel 9:27 refers to the second one as an "abomination," yet there is a wing of abominations here. A wing means there were several abominations. I can think of 3, off hand; the destruction of the temple in AD 70 was one, turning the remains of the temple into a trash heap is two, and the true abomination of desolation, the Dome of the Rock, was three. I believe there were MORE abominations between AD 70 and AD 688, but I cannot be certain. The answer can probably be found here:

Temple Mount - Wikipedia

So there you have it. The offense that causes horror was in 167 BC (1 Macc. 1:57). One abomination was in AD 70 (Dan. 9:27). And the "one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate (Dan. 9:27)," was in AD 688: the Dome of the Rock. This means that the false prophet (Rev. 16:13, 19:20, 20:10) is Islam, and he will be destroyed:

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10)."

It also means the abomination who makes desolate (Dan. 9:27), viz. the Dome of the Rock, will remain until a complete destruction (Rev. 20:10), one that is decreed, gushes forth on Islam (the one who makes desolate).

Jesus spoke of an abomination of desolation that would occur in his future. This was the Dome of the Rock. "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—let the reader understand— (Mat. 24:15)"

The Byzantine historian Theophanes wrote in the early ninth century:

"Sophronius, the leader of Jerusalem, obtained from Umar a treaty in favor of all the inhabitants of Palestine, after which Umar entered the Holy City in camel-hair garments all soiled and torn, and making a show of piety as a cloak for his diabolical hypocrisy, demanded to be taken to what in former times had been the Temple built by Solomon. This he straightway converted into an oratory for blasphemy and impiety. When Sophronius saw this he exclaimed, ‘Truly this is the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, and it now stands in the Holy Place,’ and he shed many tears."

Using AD 688 as a starting point, add 1,260 to get 1948 (Israeli Declaration of Independence).
Add 1,290 to get 1978 (Camp David Accords).
Add 1,335 to get 2023 (???).

The Dome of the Rock was the future abomination of desolation that Jesus referred to.

Minky said:

2023 (???)

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The 7th Trumpet

Timtofly said:

The 7th Trumpet

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Fitting 6 trumpets before 2023 would be unlikely.

"But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." And I would even say year. Basically, no one knows WHEN He'll return. "If the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into."

But I think we know what season.

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away (Mat. 24:32–35)."

Fig tree = Israel

"This is what the Lord, the God of Israel says: 'Like these good figs, so I will regard as good the captives of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans. For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land; and I will build them up and not overthrow them, and I will plant them and not uproot them. I will also give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me wholeheartedly (Jer. 24:5–7).'"

Man's lifespan = 120 years

Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not remain with man forever, because he is also flesh; nevertheless his days shall be 120 years (Gen. 6:3).”

Or 70 or 80 years...

"As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years,
Or if due to strength, eighty years,
Yet their pride is only trouble and tragedy;
For it quickly passes, and we disappear (Psa. 90:10)."

1948 (Israeli declaration of independence; fig tree's branch became tender and sprouted its leaves) + 120 years = 2068

"And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short (Mat. 24:22)."

Again, no one knows...

1st Trumpet: hail & fire mixed with blood
Wildfires Roar Across Southern Europe (Published 2017)
Europe lashed by hail, fatal storms | DW | 28.07.2019

2nd Trumpet: something like a mountain burning with fire hurled into the sea
Mount Etna is sliding into the sea. History shows that could be catastrophic.

3rd Trumpet: a great star fell from heaven
???

Minky said:

Fitting 6 trumpets before 2023 would be unlikely.

"But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." And I would even say year. Basically, no one knows WHEN He'll return. "If the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into."

But I think we know what season.

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away (Mat. 24:32–35)."

Fig tree = Israel

"This is what the Lord, the God of Israel says: 'Like these good figs, so I will regard as good the captives of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans. For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land; and I will build them up and not overthrow them, and I will plant them and not uproot them. I will also give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me wholeheartedly (Jer. 24:5–7).'"

Man's lifespan = 120 years

Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not remain with man forever, because he is also flesh; nevertheless his days shall be 120 years (Gen. 6:3).”

Or 70 or 80 years...

"As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years,
Or if due to strength, eighty years,
Yet their pride is only trouble and tragedy;
For it quickly passes, and we disappear (Psa. 90:10)."

1948 (Israeli declaration of independence; fig tree's branch became tender and sprouted its leaves) + 120 years = 2068

"And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short (Mat. 24:22)."

Again, no one knows...

1st Trumpet: hail & fire mixed with blood
Wildfires Roar Across Southern Europe (Published 2017)
Europe lashed by hail, fatal storms | DW | 28.07.2019

2nd Trumpet: something like a mountain burning with fire hurled into the sea
Mount Etna is sliding into the sea. History shows that could be catastrophic.

3rd Trumpet: a great star fell from heaven
???

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The church has had since 1948 to be prepared. Too much time even, because many have changed back and forth several times. It does not take years for judgments. It only takes seconds. If God can extend making all of creation to a length of 6, 24 hr. periods, it is not that difficult to have 13 judgments in a year or the. The Second Coming is not based on Satan's science, that would be Satan knowing when to calculate his deception to line up with God’s time keeping. That is why all the false signs based on science do not count. Yes if they happened, then we can look back and say, ok. They can NOT be used to predict, but can confirm after the fact.

Timtofly said:

The church has had since 1948 to be prepared. Too much time even, because many have changed back and forth several times. It does not take years for judgments. It only takes seconds. If God can extend making all of creation to a length of 6, 24 hr. periods, it is not that difficult to have 13 judgments in a year or the. The Second Coming is not based on Satan's science, that would be Satan knowing when to calculate his deception to line up with God’s time keeping. That is why all the false signs based on science do not count. Yes if they happened, then we can look back and say, ok. They can NOT be used to predict, but can confirm after the fact.

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I believe the 7 seals were already fulfilled during the Crisis of the Third Century.
Crisis of the Third Century - Wikipedia