Saying goodbye

A moment away from a loved one can be like an arrow in the heart.

InterestedAtheist said:

But instead, we wave goodbye to them on the pier, crying, and surrounded by others, crying and mourning. Which is strange, if they're going to such a wonderful place, and you're going to join them soon.

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People cry for themselves, because they realize it will probably be a few decades before they see them again, and meanwhile their is a big hole in their life where the person use to be.

InterestedAtheist said:

I spend most of my day away from my loved ones, and see them again in the evening, and feel fine.
Of course, if I thought I was never, ever going to see them again it would be incredibly painful. But Christians don't believe that, do they?

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Death shouldnt be emotional for anyone who believes in God?

InterestedAtheist said:

This raises all sorts of questions. Such as:
1. Does a few decades really matter, in the context of an infinitely long life?
2. Shouldn't the joy of knowing that your loved one has gone to the infinitely wonderful superbestest ever place outweigh the sadness of temporarily leaving them?
3. I'm imagining two old people, one of them dying, and the mood between them is like they're about to go on holiday, and one person is going on ahead a day or two.
4. Shouldn't people be sad because they can't go too?

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People aren't thinking in terms of the life to come a lot of the time, but reacting to the present and perceived near future. And this stuff isn't rational. Yes, you can and should modify your emotions with various Stoic and Spiritual thoughts, but that more primitive part of your brain is present.

I have studied Rational Emotive Therapy etc. and Cognitive Therapy in general. It is one thing to use that to control emotions that are way out of control aka from "Irrational Beliefs". It is however another to get rid of normal unhappy emotions and reactions like sadness that come from things like loss. We are not robots. We feel things and react. A lot of this stuff comes from the Cerrebellum just above the brain stem. For some folks this is like trying to suppress a sneeze of psychoanalyze and deconstruct a hiccup it is that wired in.

We shouldn't mourn losses as if we had no heavenly perspective. But we're still in the flesh, and while "the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak". As long as we're in the body we have this goal to work toward. The more we are consecrated to Christ the freer we are to enjoy the blessings of this world but not be in bondage to them. But we're all on the path and haven't been perfected quite yet.

InterestedAtheist said:

Imagine you were saying goodbye to a dear friend, or loved one. They're off on a voyage, sailing on a ship to a far away land.
But now, imagine that this far away land they're sailing to is a wonderful place, where they can have a much, much happier life than the one they had here. They're going to a place that is wonderful in every way.
And then, even more good news - soon, you'll be taking the same voyage, and you'll be with them, and you'll both be living in this wonderful place, together, enjoying the most amazing life possible - far, far better than anything you've ever experienced before.

But instead, we wave goodbye to them on the pier, crying, and surrounded by others, crying and mourning. Which is strange, if they're going to such a wonderful place, and you're going to join them soon.

Or as Shakespeare put it:

Jester: Good lady, why do you mourn?
Lady: For my brother's death.
Jester: I think his soul is in hell, lady.
Lady: I know his soul is in heaven, fool.
Jester: The more fool, lady, to mourn for your brother's soul being in heaven.

If Christians are right, and if the dying are going to a place of infinite wonders, and if they'e going to go there too, then why mourn for them? Surely a burial of Christians should be a place of happiness, satisfaction and delight, with anticipation for the joy soon to come to those left behind.

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So when I was a Christian my grandmother died that I was really close to. I believed that I would see her again but I missed her being gone so I felt sad. That pain is real even though we think we will see them again. I don't think it is a black and white as you state.

The fact is though that when I lost my faith I had to mourn people all over again that had died because I know now I will never see them again. This is a consequence of religious belief.

InterestedAtheist said:

I can imagine a world in which funerals were occasions of laughter and happiness, celebrating that another person had escaped this world and gone to an infinitely better place. That sounds like a world in which Christianity is really true. But we don't live in that world. We live in a world in which people act like they believe their loved ones will never be seen again. Like they've, you know, died.

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Just what world are you talking about? Is this life in the UK?

In the funerals for my family etc. I see sadness, but not uncontrolled sadness and most of the Christians present take comfort in seeing their relatives again sometime at the end of their lives.

InterestedAtheist said:

I can imagine a world in which funerals were occasions of laughter and happiness, celebrating that another person had escaped this world and gone to an infinitely better place. That sounds like a world in which Christianity is really true. But we don't live in that world. We live in a world in which people act like they believe their loved ones will never be seen again. Like they've, you know, died.

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I've been to several memorial services that were exactly like that. One was so joyous I remember it well now, almost 40 years later. We'd be lying if we said there is no pain in death, but it would be just as untrue to say that faith is not a comfort in it. In the end we win. We will say, "death, where is your sting?", and we say it even now in the spirit. Are you surprised Christians aren't perfected as yet?

Hi - Interested Atheist :) - you said:

If Christians are right, and if the dying are going to a place of infinite wonders, and if they'e going to go there too, then why mourn for them?

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I offer that I get what you are saying. And I might be able to offer you a unique explanation for every unique person who claims to be a believer but who mourns for a loved one who has died. If you wish, in another post I can offer you a little list of possibilities.

But first > I think of where you could be coming from, by bringing this up >

You find that there are people who are not logical. And yet, they do exist, even if they don't make sense to you. And even if they are not logical, you do apparently believe that they exist, right? Do you see what I might be getting at?

To me, it seems how Jesus was not impressed by death. And His message and example mean we do well to have hope, while others and we ourselves die.

And He made good use of His death. So, likewise, we can make good use of dying. So, we should be creative, with God who is our Creator so creative.

And it is good to rejoice with ones who have faith during death . . . of their own selves or others. And help one another to be ready to handle death well.

But yes there are ones who do not prepare to die well, or for others to die on their way to eternity with Jesus. But they can just even fight death, and be afraid of it. And it is clear > Hebrews 2:14-15 < "fear of death" is slavery to Satan.

So, there is more to this issue, than you have brought out.

Ones can dread the death of a certain person, because they have put too much of their lives under the power, somehow, of that one person. They have not gotten into loving any and all people the way Jesus desires. They have not been preparing to die well with God and with ones close to them. They possibly have made idols . . . love idols . . . of certain people so they can not let go of them, but they are possessing them, without sharing them with God and trusting them to God, I mean.

And so ones have put too many emotional eggs into one basket. And their focus has become too much only about this life with someone.

But I was taught as a Roman Catholic kid to always be ready to die. And if I died, even at a young age, this could be a stepping stone to Heaven; and so I should not fear this possibility. However, I was simply taught that suicide is a "mortal sin"; and therefore, even if it might be logical to kill myself so I could get to Heaven . . . uh-uh > that would be a no-no. I must stay in this life until God decides it is time for me to leave to Heaven.

But since then I have become a basic Jesus-Bible-love person. And I have learned a different motive for staying here on earth >

I get what you are saying, how suicide could be a logical desirable thing to do; but a number of us Bible believers understand that we are here on earth to bless people. God uses us, here. Yes, He could just take out all His children, and then He could save others without our part in it, but our Father is sharing; so He has us caring with Him.

Philippians 1:23-24 shares how our Apostle Paul would have loved to die and go to be with Jesus, but he understood he could help people, by staying here on this earth. So, part of why we stay here is so we can do others good. Because God does include us.

Every child of God can do God's own good to other people . . . even though we are not perfect, even while we might not be logical lolol >

God t-h-r-o-u-g-h us can do His good.



I am 73 years old, and my companion is 84. So, I am quite aware that I could live longer than she does. But I understand that if God has done me good through her, this good of love will continue in me after she dies. In some way I still will have her not only with me, but in me, as my example of how to have compassion for others, how to tenderly and sweetly and generously help others, how to share sweetly but also with needed correction so I can love better and be more real in faith with God. This will continue and grow in me . . . she will continue, possibly I can say - - - in me, then. So, I prepare to continue with her and grow more in love with her, even after she has gone.

But also I prepare for how ones in her family, and ones she has helped, will be suffering about her going. I mean ones who do not have hope of living after we die. And ones have mainly used her, but have not fed on her example of how she makes love sacrifices to be with people and help them. Ones are into themselves, though they have spent time with her. So, I need to be ready to have compassion on them, and feel for them . . . and offer > hope of eternity with God and how we can have love, now.

And I know others who have hope, the way they do. Each is unique, like I am, though. Not all are un-logical like ones you have noticed. May be some number of the mourners get your attention, so you do not notice the ones who are rejoicing.

InterestedAtheist said:

Imagine you were saying goodbye to a dear friend, or loved one. They're off on a voyage, sailing on a ship to a far away land.
But now, imagine that this far away land they're sailing to is a wonderful place, where they can have a much, much happier life than the one they had here. They're going to a place that is wonderful in every way.
And then, even more good news - soon, you'll be taking the same voyage, and you'll be with them, and you'll both be living in this wonderful place, together, enjoying the most amazing life possible - far, far better than anything you've ever experienced before.

But instead, we wave goodbye to them on the pier, crying, and surrounded by others, crying and mourning. Which is strange, if they're going to such a wonderful place, and you're going to join them soon.

Or as Shakespeare put it:

Jester: Good lady, why do you mourn?
Lady: For my brother's death.
Jester: I think his soul is in hell, lady.
Lady: I know his soul is in heaven, fool.
Jester: The more fool, lady, to mourn for your brother's soul being in heaven.

If Christians are right, and if the dying are going to a place of infinite wonders, and if they'e going to go there too, then why mourn for them? Surely a burial of Christians should be a place of happiness, satisfaction and delight, with anticipation for the joy soon to come to those left behind.

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If Christian grief in this life wasn't supposed to be a normative aspect of our social and personal psychology, then I'm guessing we wouldn't see Jesus weeping in the Gospels and we wouldn't have passages like Acts 21:10-14.

No, I'm going to say that this can be the short answer to a question that needn't be belabored over.

Until Christ comes again and Revelation is fulfilled, we Christians won't have every tear wiped away just yet.... and no one should expect us to just smile with glee.

InterestedAtheist said:

Or as Shakespeare put it:

Jester: Good lady, why do you mourn?
Lady: For my brother's death.
Jester: I think his soul is in hell, lady.
Lady: I know his soul is in heaven, fool.
Jester: The more fool, lady, to mourn for your brother's soul being in heaven.

If Christians are right, and if the dying are going to a place of infinite wonders, and if they'e going to go there too, then why mourn for them? Surely a burial of Christians should be a place of happiness, satisfaction and delight, with anticipation for the joy soon to come to those left behind.

Click to expand...

Agreed, and it is in certain culture/faith celebrations, Jazz funerals in New Orleans for example.
The death of a loved one hurts though, regardless of what anyone tells you; it is the biggest blow of reality one can face. My last words to my mother were 'you are going to get to be a little girl again'. By my faith, not here reborn literally as a little girl again, but to have that joy and health of the childhood she knew at the end of the cancer that was reducing her body to the husk of a cocoon.

No matter what the faith its a struggle; we do not see the whole picture now, but in faith (try) to believe that a more beautiful hand is in play. And you can't really ask someone to have that in those moments; it's healing if they do.

Still, pass the tissues