In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Paidiske said:

The problem comes when we think that something we do can change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity. We don't have such therapeutic tools, and we ought not pretend that we do.

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Indeed. Literally all one can do is pray for people with this sort of situation. Attempts at intervention even in a professional judicial-medical setting, when homosexuality was illegal, lead to suicide, for example, the tragic death of Alan Turing.

The problem with dysphorias like gender dysphoria is that people experiencing them are at risk of self-harm.

Now if Victoria criminalized merely praying for someone, as opposed to the dangerous practice of conversion therapy, that would be a real problem for me.

In general, though, Australia has a tradition of seeking to ban dangerous new religious movements, and conversion therapy, which was unknown to the early church, is a new religious movement.* For example, Australia for many years banned Scientology, which I think was appropriate given the extremely abusive nature of that cult.

Australia’s hardline stance is also to a large extent mitigated by countries like the US, which have extremely strong protections on freedom of expression, as well as differing attitudes within the different parts of Australia, and so the protectiveness is as I see it an aspect of Australian cultural values, just as radical free speech is an aspect of American cultural values.

*The early church abhorred homosexuality, but not in a specific way, in that it also abhorred sodomy within marriage (the two were addressed, for example, by the same penance in most early canons, the one exception I can think of being the canons of St. John the Faster; St. Gregory of Nyssa also wrote a canon specifically addressing it, and St. Paul named it, but all of the above were in the context of an overall condemnation of all forms of sexuality separated from reproduction, within the sanctity of marriage) and treated any form of sexual immorality in a consistent way.

The attitude of some people today that homosexuality is the ultimate sin is actually making things harder for traditional Christians with orthodox views on human sexuality, by causing us to be cast in with the likes of Westboro Baptist Church and other hate cults, with which we have nothing in common.

creslaw said:

You promote sexual immorality when you affirm homosexual behaviour ... it's just that you do not use the Bible as a guide to what is and is not sexually immoral., you use the APA guide instead.

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I myself never affirm homosexual behavior; I simply do not abuse homosexuals because their sins are no different from those of anyone else. All sins are equal before God. I am lazy, I have a temper, I am inclined towards avarice and gluttony, and therefore I cannot claim moral superiority over someone who engages in sinful homosexual behavior.

I don’t want my sins to be affirmed or encouraged, and likewise I do not affirm or encourage the sins of others, based on what Jesus said.

And as I mentioned before, the problem with conversion therapy is that it causes harm, like suicide. If we, as prior generations of psychiatrists (I think correctly) did, regard homosexuality or transexuality as a mental illness, given the disastrous failures of psychiatric attempts to “cure” the condition, for example, the suicide of Alan Turing, the rational response would be to recognize that at present a safe cure does not exist.

To put it another way, conversion therapy appears to be analogous to what happens when people who are seriously addicted to heroin or other substances are deprived of them, that being deadly withdrawl. And while for heroin you have methadone and other therapies, for other drugs, this is not even the case, which creates extremely dangerous situations. Michael Jackson, for example, while the proximate cause of his death was negligence by his doctor, really died as a result of having become dependent on propofol in order to sleep; his death was the result of a doctor being negligent by trying to care for the disease in the privacy of his home. He needed to be in a hospital, but AEG wanted to profit from him (which they did, massively, after his death), so he was entrusted to the care of a quack cardiologist who did not even bother with proper monitoring of vital signs.

Homosexuality is similar, except there are no treatments which will not cause extreme suffering. Literally all you can do is pray for the person, in such a manner that does not cause them to experience any form of public or private humiliation. Many of them already are suffering from self-humiliation, self-loathing and general dysphoria. They need Christian love; we need to treat them the way we wish to be treated bearing in mind our own enormous sins.

Ultimately, as a traditional, liturgical Christian, my feelings regarding homosexuality and all other sin are perhaps best expressed by the beautiful prayer for forgiveness at the beginning of Morning and Evening Prayer in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer:

“ALMIGHTY and most merciful Father; We have erred, and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have offended against thy holy laws. We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done; And there is no health in us. But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us, miserable offenders.”

The Liturgist said:

And as I mentioned before, the problem with conversion therapy is that it causes harm, like suicide. If we, as prior generations of psychiatrists (I think correctly) did, regard homosexuality or transexuality as a mental illness, given the disastrous failures of psychiatric attempts to “cure” the condition, for example, the suicide of Alan Turing, the rational response would be to recognize that at present a safe cure does not exist.

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early psychiatrists understood homosexuality was not a mental illness.

"Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation; it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function" Sigmund Freud

the classification of it as a mental illness was political in origin not scientific.

Homosexuality does not fit even the broadest definitions of mental illness. there is no "cure' because you can't sure something that isn't a pathology in the first place.

To put it another way, conversion therapy appears to be analogous to what happens when people who are seriously addicted to heroin or other substances are deprived of them, that being deadly withdrawl. And while for heroin you have methadone and other therapies, for other drugs, this is not even the case, which creates extremely dangerous situations.

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i think you are way off base here.[/QUOTE]

creslaw said:

At least you have now informed the other poster you do indeed regard talk & prayer as "discredited methods" in helping people with ssa who are seeking to live according to their traditional Christian faith.

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That is not what I said. They are discredited as therapeutic methods of making a person straight or cis-gendered. That has nothing to do with whether or not someone can live according to their traditional Christian faith.

creslaw said:

Behaviour, feelings, aspirations ... these are just some of the facets of change that are addressed and these are all different but interrelated ... and feelings are not all or nothing but affected by frequency, intensity & direction ... sadly you seem to be ignorant of these things.

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Why would you imagine, that just because I'm arguing against traumatising vulnerable people, that I'm ignorant of processes of change?

creslaw said:

You promote sexual immorality when you affirm homosexual behaviour

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But I do neither of these things. You seem to imagine that because I'm arguing against conversion therapy, I'm handing folks permission to fornicate at will. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Paidiske said:

Any and all of those things might be good, if used appropriately.

What is not good, is using those things in an attempt to change someone's sexuality. We cannot dictate how God will meet someone in the sacraments. We cannot dictate what the outcome will be when God heals someone's memories, or when we pray for deliverance, etc. etc.

We can engage in the life of faith in all these ways and more, but if we do so in an attempt to create a particular outcome, it becomes manipulative, and we put ourselves in the place of God.

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You know while I don't agree with you in regard to this bill because I think its an unwarranted encroachment of the state into civil society. It would be impossible to legislate to make all LGBT people "feel welcome" everywhere - there will always be some who no matter how much effort people go to who will find something to complain about, and others who are prone to melodramatic outbursts or games of "Ain't it awful!" or "Why does this always happen to us?".

But I do agree with you on this point. These are the means of grace in the Church and we cannot set a timeframe on when or how God works in sanctification, in that sense I agree coercive types of therapy (eg. aversion therapy) would be unhelpful - it would be better to differentiate those from other sorts of psychotherapy. Aversion therapy because that seems to be what this whole thing is about is not an approach that would sit well with practical theology in regard to sanctification.

The sooner conversion-therapy is completely outlawed the better.

Paidiske said:

Since you have not observed and are not able to assess my approach

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I am interested. Could you maybe briefly explain - if someone came to you with a compulsion to seek out homosexual liaisons with complete strangers (ie. meet up for homosexual sex then part company) seeking pastoral help because they felt it was getting out of control. How would you be likely to help them? Would you pray with them, or share any scripture with them, ask them to repent, or hear confession, refer them for medical help, or something else?

Do you think if this bill became law where you minister, would it make helping a troubled individual such as just described - easier, more difficult, or would it remain much the same?

dms1972 said:

I am interested. Could you maybe briefly explain - if someone came to you with a compulsion to seek out homosexual liaisons with complete strangers (ie. meet up for homosexual sex then part company) seeking pastoral help because they felt it was getting out of control. How would you be likely to help them? Would you pray with them, or share any scripture with them, ask them to repent, or hear confession, refer them for medical help, or something else?

Do you think if this bill became law where you minister, would it make helping a troubled individual such as just described - easier, more difficult, or would it remain much the same?

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On the understanding that we are dealing here with a hypothetical, and much of how pastoral conversations unfold depends on the person concerned, I can say some things.

One is that if someone is talking about compulsion, that is a red flag around possible mental health issues. So no matter what else I did, I'd probably suggest that they see their doctor for a mental health check in general.

Another is identifying what the issue is for the person. It sounds as if their driving concern, as you have framed it, is not sex or sexuality or even questions of morality, but anxiety around feeling out of control. That would be something to explore and find out what's at the root of that.

I would probably want to explore with them - since they'd come to a priest, after all - whether they were a Christian, and how they understood this compulsion in relation to their faith. That might include any combination of prayer/exploring Scripture/pastoral conversation etc. I would be open to hearing their confession, if asked. (I don't generally suggest confession to someone in a first conversation, but it's not off the table from my point of view).

If this bill became law where I am, I do not believe it would make any difference to helping such a person, because I wouldn't see trying to "make them straight" as my aim.

That said, I have literally never had a pastoral conversation with someone which came anywhere close to this. The overriding pastoral issue I see with same-sex attracted people is a sense of shame so overwhelming that they believe themselves beyond God's love and grace. Much of my work is helping them to realise that God's arms are always open to them.

kiwimac said:

The sooner conversion-therapy is completely outlawed the better.

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Just out of curiosity are you in fact a bishop in the Union of Utrecht?

dms1972 said:

You know while I don't agree with you in regard to this bill because I think its an unwarranted encroachment of the state into civil society. It would be impossible to legislate to make all LGBT people "feel welcome" everywhere

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maybe the issue is they aren't welcomed everywhere

there will always be some who no matter how much effort people go to who will find something to complain about, and others who are prone to melodramatic outbursts or games of "Ain't it awful!" or "Why does this always happen to us?".

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you seem to be describing some business owners who are demanding the right to refuse to provide the same goods and services to LGBT's that they provide to everyone else.

dms1972 said:

I am interested. Could you maybe briefly explain - if someone came to you with a compulsion to seek out homosexual liaisons with complete strangers (ie. meet up for homosexual sex then part company) seeking pastoral help because they felt it was getting out of control. How would you be likely to help them? Would you pray with them, or share any scripture with them, ask them to repent, or hear confession, refer them for medical help, or something else?

Do you think if this bill became law where you minister, would it make helping a troubled individual such as just described - easier, more difficult, or would it remain much the same?

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what treatment would you recommend for someone with a compulsion to seek out heterosexual liaisons with complete strangers (ie. meet up for heterosexual sex then part company) ?

The Liturgist said:

And as I mentioned before, the problem with conversion therapy is that it causes harm, like suicide. If we, as prior generations of psychiatrists (I think correctly) did, regard homosexuality or transexuality as a mental illness, given the disastrous failures of psychiatric attempts to “cure” the condition, for example, the suicide of Alan Turing, the rational response would be to recognize that at present a safe cure does not exist.

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There are hundreds of testimonies online of former homosexuals. None of those I have read/heard changed because of any conversion therapy (drugs, aversion treatments and the like) but because they had an encounter with Jesus Christ.
The Church has a role in teaching the truth of Scripture and helping those with problems by providing appropriate support. Unfortunately the line between offering help & support and "encouraging change or suppression" is likely to cause some to fall foul of the proposed law.

ken777 said:

There are hundreds of testimonies online of former homosexuals. None of those I have read/heard changed because of any conversion therapy (drugs, aversion treatments and the like) but because they had an encounter with Jesus Christ.
The Church has a role in teaching the truth of Scripture and helping those with problems by providing appropriate support.

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I agree entirely.

ken777 said:

Unfortunately the line between offering help & support and "encouraging change or suppression" is likely to cause some to fall foul of the proposed law.

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This has been my chief concern with the bill in question; however if @Paidiske thinks its Ok, it probably is.

The Liturgist said:

This has been my chief concern with the bill in question; however if @Paidiske thinks its Ok, it probably is.

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It is unlikely that a church which marries same sex couples would be interested in encouraging any form of change or suppression of homosexuality.

creslaw said:

It is unlikely that a church which marries same sex couples would be interested in encouraging any form of change or suppression of homosexuality.

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The Anglican church of Australia does not conduct same-sex marriages.

Paidiske said:

The Anglican church of Australia does not conduct same-sex marriages.

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You may not be able to say that for much longer.

He's talking about blessing a couple who've had a civil marriage after the fact. Which may seem like splitting hairs, but is not the same thing as conducting the marriage.

Even so, at the moment I think that's only on the table in one or two dioceses in the country?

Paidiske said:

The Anglican church of Australia does not conduct same-sex marriages.

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full disclosure would be nice

creslaw said:

full disclosure would be nice

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You made a false statement, and I corrected it.