The New Covenant

Status
Not open for further replies.

jeffweedaman

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2020
778
558
60
PROSPECT
✟82,293.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A last Will or Testament is not a Covenant.
Jesus' sacrificial death was His 'Will' to all who would accept it, all the born again Christians, thru this age.
The new Covenant will be made when the other party to it, namely the Christian peoples are all together as one nation, as prophesied in Isaiah 62:1-5


How are we Christians going to do our part and organize this meeting together?

I think you will find that it is all the Lords doing. He hath made us a Holy nation already , and he will come again to gather all of us together to meet him at his appearing...whether dead or alive. At that point we will remain with him forever.


What exactly is our part Keras ???
 
Upvote 0

jeffweedaman

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2020
778
558
60
PROSPECT
✟82,293.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
[Staff Edit]





2 Timothy 4:1-5 Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His coming appearing and Millennial reign – to proclaim the gospel, press it home, in season and out of season, use argument, reproof and encouragement with all the patience that teaching requires.

The original 2 tim 4

I solemnly exhort you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; correct, rebuke, and exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But as for you, use self-restraint in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

No mention of a millennial kingdom , just his coming again.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Agree
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
A last Will or Testament is not a Covenant.

You continue to err.

The Greek word in Scripture is "diatheke", which encompasses all of will, testament, and covenant. "Diatheke" appears nine times in Hebrews 9, as well as numerous times elsewhere.

Thus "New Covenant" and "New Testament" are one and the same. Wherever either appears, the meaning of the other is also included.

The two terms are interchangeable, because both were and are simultaneously and concurrently true. Over fifty Bible versions use the terms interchangeably.

Those who are in Christ experience the New Covenant, which is our bidirectional relationship with Him characterized by His free gift of salvation and the power to live for Him, extended to us; and our acceptance of His free gift by faith, and the power to live for Him by faith and obedience.

Those who are in Christ also concurrently experience the New Testament, of which Christ is both Testator and Heir, in whom all of God's promises are yes and amen, and in whom we are heirs and joint-heirs.

Both became "of force" immediately upon Jesus' death. (Hebrews 9:17)

Your decapitated New Covenant is a futurized fantasy and fallacy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
How are we Christians going to do our part and organize this meeting together?
By the great Second Exodus of God's faithful people into all of the holy Land. As described in many prophesies; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10
John sees us there in Revelation 7:9
What exactly is our part Keras ???
Out job is to get there; Isaiah 66:18b-21 and Psalms 107 describe how we will travel, although the ancient Prophets didn't know about modern transport;
Isaiah 60:4-12 Look; the people are coming, some from far away, in vessels that sail along in the clouds, that fly like doves.....
Keras is rewriting the NT LOL.
Do not accuse me of rewriting.
2 Timothy 4:1-5 is as I have posted, in the Revised English Bible version. It does say; by His appearance [the Return] and His reign. [the Millennium]
Both the Return and the Millennium, are as fully explained elsewhere.
I do often note the version I have used.
I notice you haven't given your Bible version.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The Greek word in Scripture is "diatheke", which encompasses all of will, testament, and covenant. "Diatheke" appears nine times in Hebrews 9, as well as numerous times elsewhere.
Like many Hebrew and Greek words, 'diatheke' can mean different things. The context dictates which one is meant.
You wrongly decide to make it mean both, resulting in confusion and error.
Your decapitated New Covenant is a futurized fantasy and fallacy.
When the new Covenant is made with the Lords faithful people; those who have proved their trust in Him, by standing firm in their faith during the Sixth Seal event; then it will be fully implemented.
I've put myself squarely in the camp of Scripture and the historical defenders of Scripture.
Good, I look forward to seeing you in the holy Land, as we stand in His Presence, praising Jesus and waving palm branches. Revelation 7:9
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Like many Hebrew and Greek words, 'diatheke' can mean different things. The context dictates which one is meant.
You wrongly decide to make it mean both, resulting in confusion and error.

Which one is right?
Don't be shy.
Hint: They all are.
Note: Forty-one English translations use "covenant", twice as many as use "testament".
Dispensational godfather John Nelson Darby uses "covenant".
Your beloved REB uses "covenant". Even it rebuts your decapitated covenant. Imagine that.

Matthew 26:28
KJV
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 26:28
DARBY
For this is my blood, that of the [new] covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins.
NASB
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
YLT
for this is my blood of the new covenant, that for many is being poured out -- to remission of sins;
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I just let others here see how you make personal remarks and wrong assumptions. You have lost all credibility here.

Your weak argument from the ECF's, in favor of the new Covenant now, totally fails to rebut the scriptures I have presented that prove the NC later.

Irenaeus, Early Church Defender of the True Faith, 130-202 AD
Against Heresies Book 4 Chapter 34
"For by His advent He Himself fulfilled all things, and does still fulfil in the Church the new covenant foretold by the law..."

"the new covenant foretold by the law"

Love it.

The choice:
1. Those who despise the faith, vision, wisdom, and sacrifice of the Early Church Defenders of the True Faith
2. Irenaeus

Easy decision.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Christian Gedge

Well-Known Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,214
1,361
Waikato
Visit site
✟227,010.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Irenaeus, Early Church Defender of the True Faith, 130-202 AD
Against Heresies Book 4 Chapter 34
"For by His advent He Himself fulfilled all things, and does still fulfil in the Church the new covenant foretold by the law..."
Irenaeus was was quite early wasn’t he? So, he would have been familiar with the Apostles teachings. Good hunting Jg.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Irenaeus was was quite early wasn’t he? So, he would have been familiar with the Apostles teachings. Good hunting Jg.
Did even the Apostles clearly say all Christians are immediately in the New Covenant?
Even the writer of Hebrews 8, does not state when it will happen. Only that Jesus will be the Mediator of it and the time is coming....

Isn't it possible for people here to understand that the new Covenant must be corporate; all the living Christians together, agreement?
Again, I prove this by how some Christians will violate the Covenant, when the leader of the rest of the world, makes a peace treaty with the holy people. Daniel 11:32
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sure they do, correctly in that verse.
Jesus shed His Blood for the New Covenant. He has done His part, but we have not done ours yet.
We have become born again Christians, however until we are gathered into the holy Land as one people, we cannot as a nation; pledge or allegiance to Him.

This whole issue of the new Covenant now, borders on the ridiculous as prophesies such as Isaiah 33:24 clearly tells us that it will be in the holy Land where the Lord will pardon the sins of the people.
Your denial of Biblical truths is your failing. [And Ireneaus's]

You've said it's one or the other depending on context, but not both.

Therefore if "covenant" is correct in the NASB, then "testament" is wrong in the KJV.

According to your illogic.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Did even the Apostles clearly say all Christians are immediately in the New Covenant?
Even the writer of Hebrews 8, does not state when it will happen. Only that Jesus will be the Mediator of it and the time is coming....

Isn't it possible for people here to understand that the new Covenant must be corporate; all the living Christians together, agreement?
Again, I prove this by how some Christians will violate the Covenant, when the leader of the rest of the world, makes a peace treaty with the holy people. Daniel 11:32

Hebrews 9 NASB
16 For where there is a covenant, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when people are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives

The contents of an authenticated "covenant-testament" (to borrow from Clement) are valid, of force, immediately upon the death of the testator.

This has been governed since ancient times by the jurisprudence concerning wills and testaments.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
You've said it's one or the other depending on context, but not both.

Therefore if "covenant" is correct in the NASB, then "testament" is wrong in the KJV.

According to your illogic.
The KJV has error in just about every verse. Archaic English or just bad translation. Its a mistake to rely on it.
Matthew 26:28 does state Covenant, that His Blood was shed for. By partaking in the Communion ceremony, the Apostles and we today celebrate the part Jesus played for our redemption, but they and we today did/do not yet play our part by making a national agreement to the provisions of that Covenant.
Which is: placing our complete trust in the Lord for His protection, as we live in the unprotected holy Land. Ezekiel 38:11
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Isaiah 10:17-27 The Light of Israel [the Lord] will become a fire, its Holy One a flame which in one Day will burn up and consume His thorns and briars. The splendor of his forests and fields it will completely destroy, as suddenly as someone falling in a fit. Only a very few trees [righteous Jews] will be left. Jeremiah 12:14

On that Day the remnant of Israel, the survivors of Jacob will rely no more on foreign help, but without wavering, will truly rely on the Lord: the Holy One of Israel. A remnant of Jacob will return, to their Mighty God.

Israel, your people may be as many as the sands of the sea, but only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous. The Lord will carry out the destruction upon the whole Land.

Therefore, says the Lord, My people, dwellers in Zion, do not be afraid of foreigners, though they oppressed you. Very soon My anger against you will end and My wrath will be directed at them, as I have done in times past.
On that Day, the burden they laid on you will be removed and your yoke broken.


In one Day, the Lord will destroy His enemies by a CME sunstrike. This will be the Lord’s Day of vengeance and the Sixth Seal of Revelation. The Land of Greater Israel will be cleared and burned over. Ezekiel 20:47-48, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 4:26-28 Jeremiah 10:18
On that Day, His righteous people will trust completely in the Lord. They will settle into a regenerated and prosperous Land, as described in Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 35:1-10


Ezekiel 34:11-31 For the Lord says: “Now I will take thought for My sheep [every true Christian, Rev 5:9-10] and search for them”. As a shepherd gathers his flock when they are lost, so I shall rescue them from all the places that they were scattered in a Day of cloud and darkness. I shall lead them out from the nations and gather them from all the places where they were scattered and bring them home to their own country.”

The pasture for My people is the Land of Israel. They will thrive and find rest there. I shall search for the lost, bandage the injured, strengthen the sick and give My flock the proper food.

Now, I shall judge between the fat sheep and the lean. You rams and goats, [bad leaders] have taken the best pastures and muddied the drinking water. Therefore I will save My flock and they will be ravaged no more. Zephaniah 3:1-8

I shall set over them My servant David he will care for them and will be their God. I shall make a covenant with them to ensure peace and prosperity. The Land will bear great crops of fruit and produce. When I rescue them from the power of their enemies, then they will know that I am the Lord.

Then they will know that I am with them and they are My people. You are My flock, that I feed and I am your God. John 10:1-27, Isaiah 62:1-5, Hosea 3:1-5


His Christian people found and rescued from wherever they are after the ‘Day of cloud and darkness” - another description of the Lord’s Day of vengeance. They are brought home to their heritage, the holy Land. Ephesians 1:11, Acts 3:25 All of His people, no matter what their health or age, will thrive and find rest. But first, they will be judged and those priests and leaders who have led their flock astray will not enter the Land. Jeremiah 14:14-16

When His faithful Christian people are rescued – then they will know that; “I am with them and you are My people”. Not yet as a visible Presence, until the Return of Jesus. Jeremiah 14:11-16, Ezekiel 20:34-38


Jeremiah 33:6-9 & 14-16 Now, I shall bring healing and care for Judah and Israel and let them see lasting peace and security. I will restore their fortunes and rebuild them as they once were. I shall cleanse them of all wickedness and sin that they have committed and forgive all the evil deeds of rebellion against Me.

This city will bring Me renown and praise, when the nations hear of the good things that I bestow on her. They will be in awe and trembling at this.

The days are coming, says the Lord, when I shall bestow on Judah and Israel all the blessings I have promised them. In those days and at that time, I shall make a righteous branch spring from David’s line; he will maintain law and justice in the Land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will be undisturbed. This is the name it will be called: The Lord our Righteousness.

Judah and Israel: the Jewish people and the House of Israel; now only the Christian peoples, all the true Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16

All the Lord’s true followers are healed, cleansed, forgiven and will live in peace and security., under the New Covenant He will make with them.
Jerusalem will become a city that will be admired and envied worldwide.

The Lord says: “I will keep My promises to Israel and Judah. A leader from David’s line will appear”. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11 Eventually it will be Jesus as King.


Hosea 6:1-3 Come, let us return to the Lord. He has wounded us, but He will heal us. After two days, He will revive us, on the third day He will raise us to live in His presence. Let us strive to know the Lord, whose coming is as sure as the sunrise. He will come to us like the spring rains that water the earth.

His people have been punished, but the Lord will ‘bind up their wounds’, on the Day He sends His fiery wrath. Isaiah 30:26 Just before the end of the two days [two thousand years since Jesus’ Advent] there will be revival, His people will come back into the Land, and then on the third 'day' they will live in His presence. That is: during the Millennium, after the Lord Jesus Returns in His glory.

1 Corinthians 2:7-9 I speak God’s hidden wisdom, His secret purpose framed from the very beginning to bring us to our destined glory. None of the powers that rule the world know that wisdom. Scripture tells us of things beyond our seeing, beyond our hearing, beyond our imagining – all prepared by God for those who love Him.
Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The KJV has error in just about every verse.

That's a risibly absurd statement.

Ten other recognized versions, including the GNV and WYC, also use "testament".

Because it was a "will and testament" which became of force immediately upon Jesus' death, making us heirs and joint-heirs with Him.

In addition to being a bidirectional agreement between us and Him, i.e. a covenant; based on His free gift to us, and our faithfulness and obedience to Him.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,772
1,309
sg
✟214,745.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sure they do, correctly in that verse.
Jesus shed His Blood for the New Covenant. He has done His part, but we have not done ours yet.
We have become born again Christians, however until we are gathered into the holy Land as one people, we cannot as a nation; pledge or allegiance to Him.

This whole issue of the new Covenant now, borders on the ridiculous as prophesies such as Isaiah 33:24 clearly tells us that it will be in the holy Land where the Lord will pardon the sins of the people.
Your denial of Biblical truths is your failing. [And Ireneaus's]

You mean you believe our sins are not pardoned, right now at this moment?
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You mean you believe our sins are not pardoned, right now at this moment?

Of course that's what he believes. Since he believes that the New Covenant is "not yet", he also believes that the Blood of the New Covenant through which our sins are forgiven is "not yet".

Since you also believe that the New Covenant is "not yet", how do you believe anything different than what he does about the forgiveness, i.e. pardon, of our sins?

Notwithstanding:

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
You mean you believe our sins are not pardoned, right now at this moment?
Yes. Sins cannot be pardoned before they are committed.

Explain how or better still, why: the Lord forgives sins as they are committed.
This idea leads to the heresy of sin as much as you like, if you are a Christian it doesn't matter, they are automatically forgiven.
Illogical, unworkable and totally unscriptural. Also is an oxymoron.
In addition to being a bidirectional agreement between us and Him, i.e. a covenant; based on His free gift to us, and our faithfulness and obedience to Him.
Yes we do have that now. Faithfulness and Obedience to His Commandments, is our duty now.

But you fail to understand, or even read what the New Covenant is for.
Ezekiel 34:25 I shall make a Covenant with My people to ensure their peace and prosperity.
We may have 'peace and prosperity' now, in our cozy Western lifestyles, but not as described in Ezekiel 34 and many other prophesies.

I doubt if anyone here is actually capable of fully understand God's Plans for His people in the end times. Including myself.
But the Prophets do state some plain facts and the Lord's people going to live in all of the holy Land, is one of them. Jeremiah 29:13-14
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,772
1,309
sg
✟214,745.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Of course that's what he believes. Since he believes that the New Covenant is "not yet", he also believes that the Blood of the New Covenant through which our sins are forgiven is "not yet".

Since you also believe that the New Covenant is "not yet", how do you believe anything different than what he does about the forgiveness, i.e. pardon, of our sins?

Notwithstanding:

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

No, I separate the Body of Christ from Israel.

The body of Christ is saved without any covenant. We have salvation from our sins the moment we believe 1 corinthians 15:1-4.

The new covenant that was promised to Israel will grant them salvation from their sins in a future date when Christ returns for them (acts 3:19-21, romans 11:27). In this, I agree with Keras.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,772
1,309
sg
✟214,745.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes. Sins cannot be pardoned before they are committed.

Explain how or better still, why: the Lord forgives sins as they are committed.
This idea leads to the heresy of sin as much as you like, if you are a Christian it doesn't matter, they are automatically forgiven.
Illogical, unworkable and totally unscriptural. Also is an oxymoron.

The body of Christ is saved without any covenant. We have salvation from our sins the moment we believe 1 corinthians 15:1-4.

The new covenant that was promised to Israel will grant them salvation from their sins in a future date when Christ returns for them (acts 3:19-21, romans 11:27). In this, I agree with you, but its only for those saved under Israel's gospel of the kingdom, the 12 apostles, David etc.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.