In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

SilverBear said:

so that is a no.

Click to expand...

Do you know what LGBT stands for?

creslaw said:

I know from your responses here that you have nothing to offer those who want help to live according to their faith except to say it is impossible for you to change and you must not try to suppress your homosexual feelings.

Click to expand...

You cannot know from my responses here what I offer people in pastoral care. But I offer them a very great deal more than you suggest, and their feedback is that they feel encouraged, supported, and draw strength from those things, to persevere in faithful Christian living.

Because there is a vast, vast gulf between being clear that conversion therapy does not work, and saying that positive change is impossible. A large part of the difference is being clear that we humans are not the agents of sanctification.

Paidiske said:

You cannot know from my responses here what I offer people in pastoral care. But I offer them a very great deal more than you suggest, and their feedback is that they feel encouraged, supported, and draw strength from those things, to persevere in faithful Christian living.

Because there is a vast, vast gulf between being clear that conversion therapy does not work, and saying that positive change is impossible. A large part of the difference is being clear that we humans are not the agents of sanctification.

Click to expand...

I don't doubt you have some satisfied clients ... nor do I doubt that some people were left suicidal after your type of intervention.

There are two very different groups here with very different needs - one group wants to have their sexuality confirmed; the other group needs to have the possibility of change facilitated by helping them to develop their relationship with Jesus Christ

creslaw said:

I don't doubt you have some satisfied clients ... nor do I doubt that some people were left suicidal after your type of intervention.

Click to expand...

The last half of your remark is uncalled for. Not only is it based on absolutely no evidence, but it is a highly inflammatory and deeply nasty thing to say.

creslaw said:

There are two very different groups here with very different needs - one group wants to have their sexuality confirmed; the other group needs to have the possibility of change facilitated by helping them to develop their relationship with Jesus Christ

Click to expand...

Indeed. And a good minister is able to serve people in both groups.

SilverBear said:

and you think suppression and denial are healthy things?

Click to expand...

Suppression is a good thing, denial is not a good thing.
I defined "suppression" in post # 504
resist (James 4:7)
overcome (1 John 2:13)
conquer (Romans 8:37)
deliverance (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

Do think a man should suppress the desire to have sex with his neighbour's wife?

creslaw said:

Do you know what LGBT stands for?

Click to expand...

The question i asked was "are you a heterosexual? yes or no."

how is this an answer?

Paidiske said:

Absolutely nobody is denying that people like you exist. What we are trying to do is draw some boundaries so that people like you get appropriate help, not harmful and ineffective pseudo-therapies.

Click to expand...

But being honest what would appropriate help amount to from your side?

While I think its a moral issue first of all, requiring forgiveness and repentance. God understands any psychological dynamics involved in homosexuality and how to set things in order just fine, and much better than you or I do. You said God could change someone but we have no means to bring it about? What about God's Word, the Sacraments, prayer in the Holy Spirit and prayer for healing of memories, if needed prayer for deliverance, christian psychotherapy and discipling? What about those means?

Paidiske said:

The last half of your remark is uncalled for. Not only is it based on absolutely no evidence, but it is a highly inflammatory and deeply nasty thing to say.



Indeed. And a good minister is able to serve people in both groups.

Click to expand...

Of course you feel offended when your approach to helping is criticized but I've had to help in the healing of the damage such an approach has caused.

Both sides need to realize that individuals can be damaged by an approach that is not suited to their specific needs & goals.

You say that the people I know should NOT seek to change or suppress their homosexual feelings - I have never said that the people you see should NOT celebrate their sexuality ... think about that.

SilverBear said:

The question i asked was "are you a heterosexual? yes or no."

how is this an answer?

Click to expand...

Do you understand what a continuum is?

creslaw said:

Of course you feel offended when your approach to helping is criticized but I've had to help in the healing of the damage such an approach has caused.

Click to expand...

I suspect we are all a bit at cross purposes - Paidaske seems to thinks acceptance important - but doesn't like the idea of some people trying to convert people to heterosexuality - I agree that ignorant people with simplistic ideas about how to go about that are dangerous - but I don't agree that homosexuality is immutable.

I think some secular psycho-sexual theories such as the continuum theory may have a grain of truth in them but for christians I think putting too much stock in them is unwise as all sexuality has been affected by the fall and these theorists don't acknowledge the need for relationship with God through Christ, sanctification etc. So be careful with them as they can mislead.

dms1972 said:

I suspect we are all a bit at cross purposes - Paidaske seems to thinks acceptance important - but doesn't like the idea of some people trying to convert people to heterosexuality - I agree that ignorant people with simplistic ideas about how to go about that are dangerous - but I don't agree that homosexuality is immutable.

I think some secular psycho-sexual theories such as the continuum theory may have a grain of truth in them but for christians I think putting too much stock in them is unwise as all sexuality has been affected by the fall and these theorists don't acknowledge the need for relationship with God through Christ, sanctification etc. So be careful with them as they can mislead.

Click to expand...

Some people experience complete change in what is called "sexual orientation" from homosexual to heterosexual ... but whatever our sexual feelings there will always be temptation to indulge in sinful thoughts & behaviour.

My experience has been that by placing our faith in Jesus Christ and believing the Word of God (Bible) we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a life free from sexual immorality. I see that as more important than whether a person experiences complete or partial or no change in so called "orientation".

That is why I feel it is essential that a person define their goals. The approaches you mentioned in post #527 are very useful in achieving these goals.

Unfortunately, the starting point for those accepting the legal approach in the Victorian bill, is that encouraging & supporting an individual to seek change or suppression of homosexuality is wrong so it has nothing to offer those who believe the Bible is the Word of God.

Worse still, they tell people that change is impossible and suppression is harmful so those who have a strong religious commitment are left with hopelessness & depression which can lead to suicidal ideation.

creslaw said:

Some people experience complete change in what is called "sexual orientation" from homosexual to heterosexual ... but whatever our sexual feelings there will always be temptation to indulge in sinful thoughts & behaviour.

My experience has been that by placing our faith in Jesus Christ and believing the Word of God (Bible) we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a life free from sexual immorality. I see that as more important than whether a person experiences complete or partial or no change in so called "orientation".

That is why I feel it is essential that a person define their goals. The approaches you mentioned in post #527 are very useful in achieving these goals.

Unfortunately, the starting point for those accepting the legal approach in the Victorian bill, is that encouraging & supporting an individual to seek change or suppression of homosexuality is wrong so it has nothing to offer those who believe the Bible is the Word of God.

Worse still, they tell people that change is impossible and suppression is harmful so those who have a strong religious commitment are left with hopelessness & depression which can lead to suicidal ideation.

Click to expand...

I'd say if God has done a work or is doing a work in you in this area, then ignore the naysayers and keep walking out your healing. There are good listening resources for people on this journey available from the likes of Pastoral Care Ministries and Clay and Mary McClean Ministries.

dms1972 said:

But being honest what would appropriate help amount to from your side?

While I think its a moral issue first of all, requiring forgiveness and repentance. God understands any psychological dynamics involved in homosexuality and how to set things in order just fine, and much better than you or I do. You said God could change someone but we have no means to bring it about? What about God's Word, the Sacraments, prayer in the Holy Spirit and prayer for healing of memories, if needed prayer for deliverance, christian psychotherapy and discipling? What about those means?

Click to expand...

Any and all of those things might be good, if used appropriately.

What is not good, is using those things in an attempt to change someone's sexuality. We cannot dictate how God will meet someone in the sacraments. We cannot dictate what the outcome will be when God heals someone's memories, or when we pray for deliverance, etc. etc.

We can engage in the life of faith in all these ways and more, but if we do so in an attempt to create a particular outcome, it becomes manipulative, and we put ourselves in the place of God.

creslaw said:

You say that the people I know should NOT seek to change or suppress their homosexual feelings

Click to expand...

I have not and do not say that. Understand me clearly; I am not saying that someone who experiences unwanted sexual impulses - of any kind - should not be able to seek and receive help with that. All of us need to learn to manage our sexuality and our sexual temptations; as you correctly note, this is part of the Christian life.

I am trying to argue that the help they are able to receive should be a) demonstrably effective, and b) demonstrably safe. Conversion therapy as it is currently practiced is neither of those two things, which is why this bill is so important.

The goal for homosexuals in Biblical Christian churches is to overcome sexual immorality which includes all same sex lust & same sex activity.

The Victorian bill criminalizes all individual help to achieve these goals

creslaw said:

The Victorian bill criminalizes all individual help to achieve these goals

Click to expand...

This is just not true at all.

Overcoming sexual immorality does not depend on conversion therapy.

Paidiske said:

This is just not true at all.

Overcoming sexual immorality does not depend on conversion therapy.

Click to expand...

Indeed, rather, if we look to Patristics, it involves conquering the passions, and there are other passions, such as gluttony and avarice, which are equally destructive. Note that I am not calling for everyone to go and read The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus and then retire to a monastery in the desert like St. Anthony. Those are very specific and difficult vocations. Rather, I think the way the Eastern churches do the fasting seasons, particularly Lent, is instructive.

By the way @Paidiske is an extremely good and pious person, with a wonderful family, who I greatly support in her work in the Anglican Church in Victoria, and who I think deserves a great deal of respect. Even though I have been unable to convince her, despite making much recourse to websites like bombaxo.org, of how interesting and exciting comparative lectionary studies are.

The chief difference between Paidiske and myself is she can actually preach without boring her congregation almost literally to sleep, an art I have yet to master.

Paidiske said:

This is just not true at all.

Overcoming sexual immorality does not depend on conversion therapy.

Click to expand...

I don't know if ignorance of deliberate distortion is the reason you persist in conflating "conversion therapy" (which involves coercion & physical punishment) with the individual talk & prayer approaches mentioned in this thread ... and criminalized in the Victorian bill. Whichever it is, you are dishonestly representing the situation.

Victorian Commissioner of LGBTIQ+ Communities: (18 Dec 2020) “the Bill is intended to capture a broad range of conduct, including, informal practices, such as conversations with a community leader that encourage change or suppression of sexual orientation or gender identity".

The Liturgist said:

By the way @Paidiske is an extremely good and pious person, with a wonderful family, who I greatly support in her work in the Anglican Church in Victoria, and who I think deserves a great deal of respect. Even though I have been unable to convince her, despite making much recourse to websites like bombaxo.org, of how interesting and exciting comparative lectionary studies are.

The chief difference between Paidiske and myself is she can actually preach without boring her congregation almost literally to sleep, an art I have yet to master.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your supportive posts, my friend.

I must, however, for the sake of accuracy note that I am now in New South Wales rather than Victoria (I moved in October last).

creslaw said:

I don't know if ignorance of deliberate distortion is the reason you persist in conflating "conversion therapy" (which involves coercion & physical punishment) with the individual talk & prayer approaches mentioned in this thread ... and criminalized in the Victorian bill. Whichever it is, you are dishonestly representing the situation.

Click to expand...

Individual talk and prayer can also be done in such a way that it amounts to conversion therapy. This does not mean that all individual talk and prayer approaches are wrong, or criminalised by the bill. It means the bill sets some clear parameters for the sake of the safety of vulnerable people.

creslaw said:

Victorian Commissioner of LGBTIQ+ Communities: (18 Dec 2020) “the Bill is intended to capture a broad range of conduct, including, informal practices, such as conversations with a community leader that encourage change or suppression of sexual orientation or gender identity".

Click to expand...

Indeed. Since most conversion therapy happens in informal (rather than formal therapeutic) settings, it is important that the bill apply in informal settings.

Note, though, the distinction. What is being outlawed are very, very specific matters, and even the link you published in post #496 makes clear that there is a very broad range of pastoral help available which is not criminalised by this bill.