In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

Paidiske · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
The approach you advocate is not only devoid of any understanding of Scriptural principles, it is very harmful & dangerous, robbing people of hope and driving them to depression & suicide.

Which Scripture tells us to cause someone physical pain while exposing them to erotic stimuli, in order to cause them to associate arousal with pain, for example?

If that's not a Scriptural practice, then why advocate for it to be allowed to continue?

creslaw said:
It appears you really have very little understanding of what the bill contains because it includes prayer, Bible reading and Christian counseling that tells people there is is always hope in Christ to be liberated from a life of sexual immorality.

Not at all. There is absolutely nothing against any valid Christian practice aimed at a life free from sexual immorality. Because that is not the same as conversion therapy. We need to be very clear that conversion therapy is not aimed at helping people to avoid immoral behaviour, it is an attempt to create deep-seated neurological change.

creslaw said:
Read these comments by Victoria's "Commissioner for LGBTIQ+ Communities" and educate yourself.

This is a particularly helpful quote: "Victoria’s Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities is about balancing rights, and people have the right to their beliefs. Some sermons may express beliefs that seem contrary to the aim of this Bill, which affirms that people of faith have the right to express their views, but not to force them upon other people. The law becomes triggered when it is aimed at changing or suppressing an individual." (Emphasis mine; this bill will not cover things like sermons or general teaching on sexuality).

Also this: "The second point, around celibacy, would probably only be triggered by this law if the celibacy was on the basis of a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity with the purpose of suppressing that person’s sexual orientation or gender identity." (Emphasis mine, again. General encouragement of celibacy does not fall foul of this law, only if you're encouraging celibacy as part of trying to make a gay person straight or a trans person cis).

Also this: "If general prayer in c) is reported to the Commission, the Commission would not be required or empowered to do anything as this is not a change or suppression practice. The Commission would decline to consider the report." (Emphasis mine. Gosh, you can pray for someone, and as long as you're not using that to try to engage in conversion therapy, you won't fall foul of the law!)

Also this: "5. There are verses in the Bible that traditionally are held to teach that homosexual activity is against God’s will. Which teaching practices (for example a sermon or bible study) will be regarded as offenses.
a) Is it an offense to teach that the Bible says homosexual sex is wrong?
b) Is it an offense to teach that the Bible is authoritative for Christians and that it says homosexual sex is wrong?
c) Is it an offense to teach that LGBT persons should be celibate?
Do these teaching activities cross the line to become offences if an individual is targeted – in public or in private?
Will the educational role of the Commission act to discourage the general teaching that the Bible says homosexual sex is wrong?

None of the above scenarios are offences, as suggested by the question, as offences require injury to be proven which is very unlikely to arise from a sermon about religious views."

(Emphasis mine. Under this bill, if passed, it will not be an offence to teach that homosexual sex is wrong, or that LBGT folks should be celibate, even if that teaching is delivered one-on-one to an LGBT person).

creslaw · Jan 27, 2021

SilverBear said:
abuse and the promotion of self hatred isn't help no matter how you try to spin it

And still you continue to deny that I, and people like me, even exist - people who once experienced same sex attraction, or still experience same sex attraction, who happily live a life where their sexual feelings are subordinate to their religious faith. It is sad you feel the need to call this "self hatred" to justify your opposition to spiritual help & support from their church.

Paidiske · Jan 27, 2021

Nobody's saying that such people don't exist, creslaw. We're saying that conversion therapy is no support to helping anyone reach such an outcome.

creslaw · Jan 27, 2021

Paidiske said:
Which Scripture tells us to cause someone physical pain while exposing them to erotic stimuli, in order to cause them to associate arousal with pain, for example?

If that's not a Scriptural practice, then why advocate for it to be allowed to continue?

Not at all. There is absolutely nothing against any valid Christian practice aimed at a life free from sexual immorality. Because that is not the same as conversion therapy. We need to be very clear that conversion therapy is not aimed at helping people to avoid immoral behaviour, it is an attempt to create deep-seated neurological change.

This is a particularly helpful quote: "Victoria’s Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities is about balancing rights, and people have the right to their beliefs. Some sermons may express beliefs that seem contrary to the aim of this Bill, which affirms that people of faith have the right to express their views, but not to force them upon other people. The law becomes triggered when it is aimed at changing or suppressing an individual." (Emphasis mine; this bill will not cover things like sermons or general teaching on sexuality).

Also this: "The second point, around celibacy, would probably only be triggered by this law if the celibacy was on the basis of a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity with the purpose of suppressing that person’s sexual orientation or gender identity." (Emphasis mine, again. General encouragement of celibacy does not fall foul of this law, only if you're encouraging celibacy as part of trying to make a gay person straight or a trans person cis).

Also this: "If general prayer in c) is reported to the Commission, the Commission would not be required or empowered to do anything as this is not a change or suppression practice. The Commission would decline to consider the report." (Emphasis mine. Gosh, you can pray for someone, and as long as you're not using that to try to engage in conversion therapy, you won't fall foul of the law!)

Also this: "5. There are verses in the Bible that traditionally are held to teach that homosexual activity is against God’s will. Which teaching practices (for example a sermon or bible study) will be regarded as offenses.
a) Is it an offense to teach that the Bible says homosexual sex is wrong?
b) Is it an offense to teach that the Bible is authoritative for Christians and that it says homosexual sex is wrong?
c) Is it an offense to teach that LGBT persons should be celibate?
Do these teaching activities cross the line to become offences if an individual is targeted – in public or in private?
Will the educational role of the Commission act to discourage the general teaching that the Bible says homosexual sex is wrong?

None of the above scenarios are offences, as suggested by the question, as offences require injury to be proven which is very unlikely to arise from a sermon about religious views."

(Emphasis mine. Under this bill, if passed, it will not be an offence to teach that homosexual sex is wrong, or that LBGT folks should be celibate, even if that teaching is delivered one-on-one to an LGBT person).

No one in this thread, or any current church practice in Australia, is suggesting that coercion or physical punishment, should be used.

The bill allows churches to teach their doctrinal position on homosexuality but individual help such as I received as a young man will be criminalized.

What you fail to acknowledge is that many thousands of people with same sex attraction (and I know some of them personally) believe the Bible teaches we should "suppress" (resist, James 4:7; overcome, 1 John 2:13; conquer, Romans 8:37) these feelings of same sex attraction and stop engaging in same sex behaviour (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

I recognize there are people who feel hurt & rejected by their former religious community because they were unable to transition out of a homosexual lifestyle - they are disappointed & bitter and sometimes this may be justified by. However, the approach to addressing the situation is not to deny that people like me exist - people who want individual help & support to live according to their chosen life goals free from homosexual feelings & behaviour.

Paidiske · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
No one in this thread, or any current church practice in Australia, is suggesting that coercion or physical punishment, should be used.

While I don't believe this is actually true - I'm well aware of ongoing coercion, at least - if this were true, why have a problem with an attempt to outlaw what you say isn't happening?

creslaw said:
What you fail to acknowledge is that many thousands of people with same sex attraction (and I know some of them personally) believe the Bible teaches we should "suppress" (resist, James 4:7; overcome, 1 John 2:13; conquer, Romans 8:37) these feelings of same sex attraction and stop engaging in same sex behaviour (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

There is a difference between deciding to live within a Biblical vision of sexual morality, and conversion therapy. The latter is the problem, not the former.

creslaw said:
However, the approach to addressing the situation is not to deny that people like me exist - people who want individual help & support to live according to their chosen life goals free from homosexual feelings & behaviour.

Absolutely nobody is denying that people like you exist. What we are trying to do is draw some boundaries so that people like you get appropriate help, not harmful and ineffective pseudo-therapies.

creslaw · Jan 27, 2021

Paidiske said:
While I don't believe this is actually true - I'm well aware of ongoing coercion, at least - if this were true, why have a problem with an attempt to outlaw what you say isn't happening?

There is a difference between deciding to live within a Biblical vision of sexual morality, and conversion therapy. The latter is the problem, not the former.

Absolutely nobody is denying that people like you exist. What we are trying to do is draw some boundaries so that people like you get appropriate help, not harmful and ineffective pseudo-therapies.

I appreciate you think you know what is good for me better than I do myself (!) but you are too late ... I am a very happy grandfather because of the individual help & support I was given along the way to reject homosexuality and live according to my faith.

"Conversion therapy" (coercion & physical punishment) is not the issue - no one objecting to the bill wants that.

Many people with same sex attraction have benefited from individual help & support, including praying with the person to resist homosexual inclinations, individual Bible study that reinforces the traditional understanding of Scripture, individual counseling & conversation that helps explore the possibilities for change, defining one's motivation & goals, developing strategies to achieve these goals (eg avoid inappropriate contentography), and so on. It is these activities that will be criminalized.

Paidiske · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
"Conversion therapy" (coercion & physical punishment) is not the issue

Yet it's clearly enough of a live issue in the community that the government feels the need to take action to put a stop to it.

creslaw said:
It is these activities that will be criminalized.

Literally none of those things will be criminalised. Only two things are being criminalised; the attempt to change someone's sexual orientation, or gender identity. Individual help and support, counselling, prayer (including for self-control in sexual matters), Bible study, working out goals and strategies, etc. etc. are all still explicitly allowed.

creslaw · Jan 27, 2021

The whole point about prayer, counseling etc is that they it is directed at assisting the individual person to change their sexual orientation ... that is what I wanted ... and it is what thousands of other people want ... and you know that is what will be criminalized.

Change can be defined in various ways but comes down to empowering an individual person to live a life that is consistent with their religious beliefs about homosexuality.

Paidiske · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
The whole point about prayer, counseling etc is that they it is directed at assisting the individual person to change their sexual orientation ... that is what I wanted ... and it is what thousands of other people want ... and you know that is what will be criminalized.

People might want it, but we have no safe and effective way of making such a change happen. That's the problem. We can support people to live faithfully with whatever they experience of their sexual orientation and gender identity, but we can't change it.

(I am not saying God can't change it, but that in this, we can't do it on God's behalf, and we get in hot water when we try).

creslaw said:
Change can be defined in various ways but comes down to empowering an individual person to live a life that is consistent with their religious beliefs about homosexuality.

You don't need to use conversion therapy to do this, though.

dms1972 · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
Read these comments by Victoria's "Commissioner for LGBTIQ+ Communities" and educate yourself.

In particular this:

"However, practices which require LGBT people to remain celibate for their entire life on the basis that they are LGBT is likely to be a change or suppression practice."

"...on the basis that they are LGBT..." - well on that basis they are part of that sub-culture and not part of the Church of Jesus Christ in which strictly speaking no one is defined by a sexual history anymore.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11

Lesbianism or homosexuality would no longer define born again christians, but they need to make a choice for their new identity in Christ. So they would not be asked to give up anything on the basis of being LGBT, but instead on the basis that they are new creatures and their old self and its practices are, by the Spirit, to be mortified.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

In that context prayer for healing of memories or psychological healing etc. it could be argued would not constitute "conversion therapy".

Christians, Lesbians, Gays and all non-believers need to hear the Gospel which calls for repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ. If they respond and become christians and are born again, they have a new identity in Christ, that they live out of. Pastoral Care and Prayer is to help them to live out of that new identity.

creslaw · Jan 27, 2021

Paidiske said:
People might want it, but we have no safe and effective way of making such a change happen. That's the problem. We can support people to live faithfully with whatever they experience of their sexual orientation and gender identity, but we can't change it.

(I am not saying God can't change it, but that in this, we can't do it on God's behalf, and we get in hot water when we try).

You don't need to use conversion therapy to do this, though.

Again, you're too late ... I have lived the experience ... and I know others who have.

BTW, the bill also criminalizes attempts to help an individual to "suppress" their homosexuality.

Obviously you do not understand the concept of change and the range of possibilities.

I am left with the very unsettling feeling that had I walked into your office I would not be alive today.

SilverBear · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
And still you continue to deny that I, and people like me, even exist - people who once experienced same sex attraction, or still experience same sex attraction, who happily live a life where their sexual feelings are subordinate to their religious faith. It is sad you feel the need to call this "self hatred" to justify your opposition to spiritual help & support from their church.

i wonder if Orwell coined the phrase "experienced same sex attraction"

SilverBear · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
And still you continue to deny that I, and people like me, even exist - people who once experienced same sex attraction, or still experience same sex attraction, who happily live a life where their sexual feelings are subordinate to their religious faith. It is sad you feel the need to call this "self hatred" to justify your opposition to spiritual help & support from their church.

are you a heterosexual? Yes or no

creslaw · Jan 27, 2021

SilverBear said:
i wonder if Orwell coined the phrase "experienced same sex attraction"

People who experienced same sex attraction coined the phrase.

Paidiske · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
Obviously you do not understand the concept of change and the range of possibilities.

I understand a very great deal, both from a developmental point of view (my original degree was in the biological sciences), and from a theological point of view.

I also understand that I have provided pastoral care to far too many people who have been profoundly damaged by conversion therapy. I want to see that damage stop. I am quite concerned that other contributors to this conversation seem quite comfortable with that damage as a sort of collateral damage in the culture wars.

creslaw said:
I am left with the very unsettling feeling that had I walked into your office I would not be alive today.

I hope that is not true. I have earned a reputation as a "safe" person for people with issues in this area to approach (I discovered this by accident after someone asked for recommendations online and my name was put forward). A large part of that is about recognising the limits of my own abilities and expertise, and keeping my ministry within those boundaries.

SilverBear · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
No one in this thread, or any current church practice in Australia, is suggesting that coercion or physical punishment, should be used.

standard practice for conversion therapy

The bill allows churches to teach their doctrinal position on homosexuality but individual help such as I received as a young man will be criminalized.

What you fail to acknowledge is that many thousands of people with same sex attraction (and I know some of them personally) believe the Bible teaches we should "suppress" (resist, James 4:7; overcome, 1 John 2:13; conquer, Romans 8:37) these feelings of same sex attraction and stop engaging in same sex behaviour (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

and you think suppression and denial are healthy things?

creslaw · Jan 27, 2021

SilverBear said:
are you a heterosexual? Yes or no

Sexuality can be located on a continuum which goes from exclusively homosexual to exclusively heterosexual.

creslaw · Jan 27, 2021

Paidiske said:
I understand a very great deal, both from a developmental point of view (my original degree was in the biological sciences), and from a theological point of view.

I also understand that I have provided pastoral care to far too many people who have been profoundly damaged by conversion therapy. I want to see that damage stop. I am quite concerned that other contributors to this conversation seem quite comfortable with that damage as a sort of collateral damage in the culture wars.

I hope that is not true. I have earned a reputation as a "safe" person for people with issues in this area to approach (I discovered this by accident after someone asked for recommendations online and my name was put forward). A large part of that is about recognising the limits of my own abilities and expertise, and keeping my ministry within those boundaries.

I know from your responses here that you have nothing to offer those who want help to live according to their faith except to say it is impossible for you to change and you must not try to suppress your homosexual feelings.

That cookie cutter approach is killing people.

SilverBear · Jan 27, 2021

creslaw said:
Sexuality can be located on a continuum which goes from exclusively homosexual to exclusively heterosexual.

so that is a no.

dms1972 · Jan 27, 2021

Paidiske said:
Which Scripture tells us to cause someone physical pain while exposing them to erotic stimuli, in order to cause them to associate arousal with pain, for example?

If that's not a Scriptural practice, then why advocate for it to be allowed to continue?

That is aversion therapy based on behaviourism. No one is advocating for that. Christian pastoral care is light years away from that. Psychoanalysis is miles away from it also and is based on a completely different set of ideas.

In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

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