Null/Voided Out

Clare73 · Jan 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
your over-reaction to God's justice

Shrewd Manager said:
Not sure what you mean there. God hates an unequal balance.

And you know this, how?

Everyone reaps what they sow. That's the principle of divine justice. Perhaps you could explain how that fits with your cherished doctrine of inordinate divine hatred - infinite punishment for finite sin..?

God's justice is about setting right, not getting even.

Well, for starters. . .the principle of divine justice is about (requiring) giving everyone his due, giving every one what he is owed.

And the Judge is also the Lawgiver, who legislates the penalties for law breaking.

And the penalty which the Judge and Lawgiver has legislated for rejection of the bloody atoning work of his precious Son is everlasting damnation, about which Jesus adamantly warned us so that we might avoid it.
Now you can either believe Jesus. . .or not.
But in either case, you will bear the consequences of your choice.

For Divine Justice allows no fudging on the Divine Law, or it would not be true Justice.

Retribution is only one of the corrective measures for use in the divine equitable plan.

There is no "retribution" in Scripture.
And there are no "corrective measures" after the close of time.

"Corrective measures" were all made available during time, and after time "the door is shut" on them.

So the belief that Jesus can and will save ALL honours God less than the belief he can and will save just a few? How do you figure that?

Who authorized you to judge what honors God "more" or "less"?

And I don't "figure out" anything, I take Jesus' word on it.

Justice is God's reigning attribute. All his other attributes are in accordance with Justice, even his Love is according to his Justice.
God does not sacrifice Justice to Love. . .which is why Jesus had to die on the cross to satisfy God's Justice so that he could exercise his Love in the forgiveness of sin.

Your God is too small, too human, and his wisdom too finite. . .unlike the God of Scripture.

Clare73 · Jan 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
To bring men to faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, which is the only way to accept/receive the reconciliation God has made available.

All who do not receive (believe) it are not reconciled, and there is no other reconciliation.
God will not be doing that to his Son a second time.

And those hearts hard enough to reject so great a salvation will not enjoy God's favor. . .trust me.

Shrewd Manager said:
You keep talking as though you did something to earn salvation, as though you're more worthy of salvation than others. God pours out His spirit. And when He does, people accept Him and repent.

And that relates how to what I stated above regarding the ministry of reconciliation:
The "reconciled" (past tense) of man (Jew and Gentile) with God (as well as Jew with Gentile) took place at the cross (Eph 2:16).
There is no other reconciliation for anyone not reconciled through faith in that reconciliation.
There is only justice for rejecting so great a salvation.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. (Lk 18:11)

Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. (Mt 21:31b)

And how will you escape the sentence of hell? (Mt 23:33b)

Really, why 'you' and not 'them' - is it your own righteousness, does God love you more than them for some reason?

You'll have to take that up with Jesus. . .it's his revelation, not mine.
.

Light of the East · Jan 25, 2021

1213 said:
My point was, in here, what the Bible tells is more important than my needs or feelings. The debate should not be about what I feel or need, but about what the Bible tells. It and its message is greater than me. And the message should not be changed by my feelings of needs.

I couldn't agree more! The problem is that the hellists WANT sinners to burn forever. They FEEL a need to have sinners get what is coming to them - GOOD AND HARD AND FOREVER! These feelings and wants override any reasonable or accurate reading of the Scriptures in the original languages, preferring instead the corrupted translations of the Roman Catholic Church by which they deigned to terrorize the laity and keep them in line.

This terrorizing began in the eleventh century with the Papal Reformation, which occurred after the schism. It was really codified by Pope Boniface, who said that unless you submitted to the authority of the Roman pope, you would burn in hell. That is a clever way of keeping people from leaving the flock when they see that you and your clergy are corrupt to the core. It was the severe moral corruption of the Roman Church which led to the Papal Reformation in the eleventh century.

I guess loving Jesus isn't half as effective to make sinners repent as holding them (figuratively speaking, of course) over the flames of hell as some loathsome spider.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 25, 2021

1213 said:
There are more than those two, but I think all scriptures are meaningful and important in the Bible and so those two are enough in this case for me. I have no reason to try to change them, or their meaning.

Yes, there are around a dozen assorted disparate scriptures generally relied on in support of eternal punishment.

It's not about changing their meaning, it's about understanding what they mean. You sound like a guy who holds a blowtorch to your enemy's feet while telling him you love him. Only makes sense to psychopaths.

So which is it - Jesus forgives his enemies or tortures them forever? Can't have it both ways.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
And that relates how to what I stated above regarding the ministry of reconciliation?

So God sacrifices Jesus every time He saves a person, Clare? You're not making sense.

Clare73 said:
You'll have to take that up with Jesus. . .it's his revelation, not mine.

Maybe Jesus loves you more than them because you're gifted at avoiding the hard questions?

You see, your theology runs aground like a shipwreck on Malta. You're left with either the Phariseeic 'Because I'm the chosen ppl' or the Unknown god, 'It's a mystery'. Well, good luck with all that. Because God has sworn an oath that the entire world will exclaim allegiance to Him, and you just refuse to believe it, preferring the subterfuge of corrupted dogma. Why not just accept God at His word?

Shrewd Manager · Jan 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
And you know this, how?

From a little book we like to call 'the Bible'. Might have heard of it?

Unequal weights are an abomination to the LORD, and false scales are not good. (Pro 20:23)

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? (Jn 3:10)

Clare73 said:
Well, for starters. . .the principle of divine justice is about (requiring) giving everyone his due, giving every one what he is owed.

And the Judge is also the Lawgiver, who legislates the penalties for law breaking.

And the penalty which the Judge and Lawgiver has legislated for rejection of the bloody atoning work of his precious Son is everlasting damnation, about which Jesus adamantly warned us so that we might avoid it.
Now you can either believe Jesus. . .or not.
But in either case, you will bear the consequences of your choice.

For Divine Justice allows no fudging on the Divine Law, or it would not be true Justice.

If God did not temper justice with mercy, what chance would any of us have Clare?

For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. (Jm 2:13)

Everlasting damnation is a bit harsh a penalty for a God who hates an unequal balance.

So you're saying the young rape victim who commits suicide blaming Jesus for not saving her from the ordeal is rewarded with eternal damnation? Delightful stuff. But the rapist beats the rap on a technicality, says the sinners prayer and when he dies at a ripe old age, whisked off to heaven...?

Clare73 said:
There is no "retribution" in Scripture.
And there are no "corrective measures" after the close of time.

"Corrective measures" were all made available during time, and after time "the door is shut" on them.

Retributive justice is THE core Mosaic jurisprudential principle. An eye for an eye, oy vey, are you ok? Jesus says this is fulfilled in reaping as you sow. Which is the motivation to go the extra mile, turn the other cheek, reconcile...and burn them forever! Lol, smh.

Sounds like 'someone' wasn't paying attention in Bible class.

The Pearly Gates are never shut (Rev 21:25). They stand ever-open to accept the influx of converts and pilgrims, fresh from their cleansing in the Lake of Fire and ready for the healing (Rev 22:2).

Clare73 said:
Who authorized you to judge what honors God "more" or "less"?

Well, if Jesus's mission is to save the world, it's pretty pusillanimous to say he only saves a few. Give these great divine promises full credit, try it, the Spirit will alight.

Clare73 said:
And I don't "figure out" anything, I take Jesus' word on it.

Justice is God's reigning attribute. All his other attributes are in accordance with Justice, even his Love is according to his Justice.
God does not sacrifice Justice to Love. . .which is why Jesus had to die on the cross to satisfy God's Justice so that he could exercise his Love in the forgiveness of sin.

God's love and justice are inseparable. He doesn't say 'I loves you Clare, but now I gots to blowtorch your feet.'

Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Clare73 said:
Your God is too small, too human, too unwise. . .unlike the God of Scripture.

Well, it does present a stumbling-block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks. But even the foolishness of God is wiser than men (and possibly even some women!).

My beliefs could boil down to 2 simple propositions:
1. God's earth is flat, motionless and enclosed.
2. God will save and restore all creation.

But boy do these 2 simple claims, one earthly and the other heavenly, bring out the Boo Radleys. How outrageous and offensive to the cognoscenti lol. And yet, incontrovertibly true.

Clare73 · Jan 26, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
So God sacrifices Jesus every time He saves a person, Clare? You're not making sense.

Pay attention. . .for the third time:

The "reconciled" (past tense) of man (Jew and Gentile) with God (as well as Jew with Gentile) took place at the cross (Eph 2:16).
There is no other reconciliation for anyone not reconciled through faith in that reconciliation.
There is only justice for rejecting so great a salvation.

Maybe Jesus loves you more than them because you're gifted at avoiding the hard questions?

Or maybe just because I do him the courtesy of paying attention. . .

Perhaps less "hit and run" and more "concentration paid" to the discussion would keep you out of error, not only regarding Scripture, but also regarding this topic.

See the following to Steve: from post #482

Saint Steven said:
No, the end is about reconciliation. (reconciled = past tense)

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Clare73 said:
The "reconciled" (past tense) of man (Jew and Gentile) with God (as well as Jew with Gentile) took place at the cross (Eph 2:16).

There is no other reconciliation for anyone not reconciled through faith in that reconciliation.
Only justice remains for rejecting so great a salvation at the price of the Son's bloody murder on the cross.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 26, 2021

Clare73 said:
Or maybe just because I do him the courtesy of paying attention.

Would be more courteous, imho, if the attention you paid was actually to him.

Clare73 said:
Perhaps less "hit and run" and more "concentration paid" to the discussion would keep you out of error, not only regarding Scripture, but also regarding this topic.

That's a little apropos of nothing, but anyway, your homily on the tenses of reconciliation notwithstanding, it takes us no further than to affirm that all will ultimately be reconciled to God through Christ.

That's what God promises in Isa 45:23, what Jesus 'tetelestais' at Calvary, what St Paul affirms in 1 Cor 15:28 and elsewhere, and what will coalesce and consummate come the Great Renewal as foretold in the final visions of the apocalypse of St John in Rev 21 and 22.

Clare73 · Jan 26, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
From a little book we like to call 'the Bible'. Might have heard of it?

Unequal weights are an abomination to the LORD, and false scales are not good. (Pro 20:23)

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? (Jn 3:10)

So you were referring to pounds and ounces in your post?

Shrewd Manager said:
Everyone reaps what they sow. That's the principle of divine justice.

And who is the Legislator and Judge of the gravity and import of "what they sow" and, therefore, the gravity and import of the consequences for "what they sow"?

And speaking of the "little book we like to call 'the Bible' "
to know the answer to that question, I say a good place to start is:
Mt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 23:15, 33; Mk 9:43, 45, 47; Lk 12:5. . .

and if Jesus' 10 warning regarding "fire" aren't enough,
you might want to consider Jesus' further warnings regrding "fire" in
Mt 12:31, 32, 13:30, 18:8, 9, 25:41, 46; Mk 9:43, 45, 47-48; Lk 3:17, 16:24.

Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Your issue isn't with me, your issue is with Jesus' 22 warnings regarding "fire."
Take it up with him.

You simply don't believe the divine Son of God. . .I do.

My beliefs could boil down to 2 simple propositions:
1. God's earth is flat, motionless and enclosed.
2. God will save and restore all creation.

Who knew you were a flat-earther?

Clare73 · Jan 26, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
Would be more courteous, imho, if the attention you paid was actually to him.

That's a little apropos of nothing, but anyway, your homily on the tenses of reconciliation notwithstanding, it takes us no further than to affirm that all will ultimately be reconciled to God through Christ.

Clare73 said:
Except for what the divine Son of God, Jesus Christ says about "whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already."
(Jn 3:18),and the divine Son of God's Apostle John reminding us "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."Do you even know the NT?

Funny x 1 List

Mocking the Word of God written is not cool.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 26, 2021

Clare73 said:
So you were referring to pounds and ounces in your post?

Weights and measures sister. Israel's national measurement standards. Scales of justice.

Clare73 said:
And who is the Legislator and Judge of the gravity and import of "what they sow" and, therefore, the gravity and import of the consequences for "what they sow"?

What we reap is balanced against what we sow. For example, if we sow the seeds of damnation, what shall we reap? This is why Jesus puts it back on the Pharisees with 'How can you escape the judgment of hell', because they're busy being holier-than-thou and condemning the common man to hell. Don't fall into that trap sister.

Clare73 said:
And speaking of the "little book we like to call 'the Bible' "
to know that answer to that question, I say a good place to start is:
Mt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 23:15, 33; Mk 9:43, 45, 47; Lk 12:5. . .
and if Jesus' warning 10 times regarding "fire" isn't enough,
you might want to consider Jesus' further warnings regrding "fire" in
Mt 12:31, 32, 13:30, 18:8, 9, 25:41, 46; Mk 9:43, 45, 47-48; Lk 3:17, 16:24.

Lots of fire. Did you read the comprehensive examination of Godfire by @Lazarus Short yet? Covers all those and more!

Clare73 said:
You simply don't believe the divine Son of God. . .I do.

Well, if you did, with your hyper-literal reading, you would accept the flat earth. Because the Biblical earth is undeniably flat, motionless and enclosed. You might not like it, but it's undeniable. Shame, you just want to run with the tribe.

Clare73 · Jan 26, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
Weights and measures sister. Israel's national measurement standards. Scales of justice.
What we reap is balanced against what we sow. For example, if we sow the seeds of damnation, what shall we reap? This is why Jesus puts it back on the Pharisees with 'How can you escape the judgment of hell', because they're busy being holier-than-thou and condemning the common man to hell. Don't fall into that trap sister.
Lots of fire. Did you read the comprehensive examination of Godfire by @Lazarus Short yet? Covers all those and more!
Well, if you did,

with your hyper-literal reading,

When the divine Son of God, Jesus Christ, states it 22 times, it's time to sit up, take notice and
take him at his word!

you would accept the flat earth. Because the Biblical earth is undeniably flat, motionless and enclosed.

Would you care to Biblically demonstrate that assertion?

I guess I missed that in Jesus' NT gospel.

1213 · Jan 26, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
...Jesus forgives his enemies or tortures them forever? ...

Bible doesn’t tell Jesus tortures anyone, therefore I don’t believe he tortures.

Bible tells that eternal life is for righteous and not all are righteous. That is why I believe some people will be destroyed in hell, as the Bible tells.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

I believe those scriptures.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 27, 2021

Clare73 said:
When the divine Son of God, Jesus Christ, states it 22 times, it's time to sit up, take notice and
take him at his word!

Like when God Himself swears an oath that EVERY tongue will exclaim a confession of allegiance?

God is described as a refiner's FIRE, His Ministers as flames of fire. Everyone will be salted with FIRE. It's no wonder that fire is a big part of Jesus' ministry. It's spiritual fire, the fire of purification and passion.

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (Dan 7:9-10)

Clare73 said:
Would you care to Biblically demonstrate that assertion?

I guess I missed that in Jesus' NT gospel.

Well, perhaps you should read the Bible as a whole. It all harmonises if you read it right. Jesus fulfils the Torah, he doesn't abolish it. You can't excise the gospel from the Bible like a surgeon removing an appendix.

On immobility:
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

On shape:
Job 38:14: "The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its hills stand out like the folds of a garment."
Isa 66:1: "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool..."
Ps 104:2: "He wraps Himself in light as with a garment; He stretches out the heavens like a tent,"
Isa 51:13: "But you have forgotten the LORD, your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth."
Rev 20:9: "And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth..."

On the firmament:
Gen 1:7: "And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."
Job 37:18: "Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"

Many other scriptures. Ancient Hebrew Biblical cosmology saw a flat, motionless and enclosed earth. The problem is trying to make the Bible support a gyrating waterball in a near-infinite material universe. It won't do it. So, like your other theories, something has to go. Will it be Bible truth...again?

Shrewd Manager · Jan 27, 2021

1213 said:
Bible doesn’t tell Jesus tortures anyone, therefore I don’t believe he tortures.

Bible tells that eternal life is for righteous and not all are righteous. That is why I believe some people will be destroyed in hell, as the Bible tells.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

I believe those scriptures.

But eternal punishment and destruction in hell mean torture. What is eternal punishment in hell if not torture? Jesus sends the goats to eternal punishment. I don't understand what you're saying. Do you believe the scripture that is translated as eternal punishment or not?

Clare73 · Jan 27, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
Like when God Himself swears an oath that EVERY tongue will exclaim a confession of allegiance?

The word "allegiance" is not in the Greek at Ro 14:11, nor in the Hebrew at Isa 45:23, only "agree, confess" which is not "allegiance."

Nor do I have to have "allegiance" to the dictator to agree with him (confess) that he has all the (nuclear) power.

God is described as a refiner's FIRE, His Ministers as flames of fire. Everyone will be salted with FIRE. It's no wonder that fire is a big part of Jesus' ministry. It's spiritual fire, the fire of purification and passion.

Well, Jesus has a different take on it.

In Mk 9:43-49, "salting with fire" is the fire of suffering (v. 43, 45, 57) in dealing radically with sin (cut it off, pluck it out)
to avoid the fire of hell, that "spiritual fire of. . .passion" etc., etc., etc.

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (Dan 7:9-10)

I don't doubt for a New York minute that Daniel saw every bit of that.

Well, perhaps you should read the Bible as a whole. It all harmonises if you read it right. Jesus fulfils the Torah, he doesn't abolish it.

Indeed! . .he fulfilled sacrifices, feasts, ceremonies, cleansings, priesthood, mediator, lawgiver, regulations. . .abolishing them on the cross (Eph 2:15), and making it all obsolete (He 8:13).

You can't excise the gospel from the Bible like a surgeon removing an appendix.

The gospel is in every book of the Bible. Why would anyone excise it?

On immobility:
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

I agree. . .the earth is fixed in its orbit. . .keeping in mind that "fixed" has about a dozen definiitions.

On shape:
Job 38:14: "The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its hills stand out like the folds of a garment."
Isa 66:1: "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool..."

Ps 104:2: "He wraps Himself in light as with a garment; He stretches out the heavens like a tent,"
Isa 51:13: "But you have forgotten the LORD, your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth."
Rev 20:9: "And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth..."

None of which excludes the earth from being a sphere, as stated in Isa 40:22.

On the firmament:
Gen 1:7: "And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."
Job 37:18: "Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"

And in Hebrew, "firmament" (raqui) mean "expanse."
Which is precisely correct. There was a huge band of water in the heavens surrounding the earth, there was no rain on the earth until the flood of Noah when that whole band of water poured on the earth, covering the mountain tops.

So indeed! . .my "hyper-literal" reading takes Scripture at its word. . .emphasis on "its" word and not our words.

Many other scriptures. Ancient Hebrew Biblical cosmology saw a flat, motionless and enclosed earth.

My Bible states that it was a sphere, states nothing about its motion, and that it was enclosed in water until the flood of Noah. What is the problem with that?

The problem is trying to make the Bible support a gyrating waterball in a near-infinite material universe. It won't do it. So, like your other theories, something has to go. Will it be Bible truth...again?

I find the Bible quite comprehensive and supportive in what it states.

And what has any of this to do with the ministry of reconciliation?
Just more "hit and run," poor attention, scatter shot and bouncing off the walls.

It still remains for you to Biblically demonstrate your assertion regarding my reading of:

The "reconciled" (past tense) of man (Jew and Gentile) with God (as well as Jew with Gentile) took place at the cross (Eph 2:16).

There is no other reconciliation for anyone not reconciled through faith in that reconciliation.
Only justice remains for rejecting so great a salvation at the price of the Son's bloody murder on the cross.

< I won't be holding my breath >
.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
The word "allegiance" is not in my Bible there.

I don't have to have "allegiance" to the dictator to agree with him (confess) that he has all the nuclear power.

Perhaps you need to read more widely:
Isaiah 45:23 By Myself I have sworn; truth has gone out from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow before Me, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Strong's Hebrew: 7650. שָׁבַע (shaba) -- to swear
adjure (6), curse (1), exchanged oaths (1), made a covenant (1), made an oath (1), promised on oath (1), promised them by oath (1), put the under oath (1), put them under oath (1), solemn (1), solemnly swear (1), strictly put (1), swear (40), swearer (1), swearing (1), swears (6), swore (62), sworn (41), take an oath (2), take the oath (1), take oath (1), takes (1), took an oath (3), took the oath (1), under oath (3), used (1), vow (1), vowed (6).

Translated by Paul in Rom 14:11 as 'Exomolgeo'
Strong's Greek: 1843. ἐξομολογέω (exomologeó) -- to agree, confess

1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

So it's a great exclamatory, affirmative, wholehearted release.

'Give it up for GOD!'

Foreign matter to the minimising, half-believing and hidebound.

Clare73 said:
The gospel is in every book of the Bible. Why would anyone excise it?

See above lol.

Clare73 said:
I agree. . .the earth is fixed in its orbit.

Lol, shocker. Where's the 'orbit' bit in scripture? Your heliocentrism is even wrong. According to Babylonian cosmology (which prevails today), the earth is not fixed, there's no absolute reference frame, it's all relative. And the earth precesses, nutates and perturbates. I'm afraid you'll find the Michelson Morley, Michelson Gale and Sagnac experiments are all against you on this one. Let's find some 'applied Einsteinian physics', shall we? Rediculous joke of a cosmology.

Clare73 said:
None of which excludes the earth from being a sphere, as stated in Isa 40:22.

That's the best you have? The word 'chug' means circle, not sphere. A pizza is circular. A coin is circular, a clay seal is usually circular. The earth is circular.
Strong's Hebrew: 2329. חוּג (chug) -- vault, horizon

And it's also used in Pro 8:27:
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth.

A compass, a face. These are describing flat surfaces.

Also, just a few chapters earlier, Isaiah says:
He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country... (Isa 22:18)

The word for ball/ sphere is 'dur'.
Strong's Hebrew: 1754. דּוּר (dur) -- a circle, ball

Just let the Bible be the Bible. Let God be true, and every man a liar.

Clare73 said:
And in Hebrew, "firmament" (raqui) mean "expanse."

Raqia denotes a solid, tactile, tangible expanse, hence the word 'firmament': See, for eg:
The Firmament of Genesis 1 is Solid but That’s Not the Point - Articles

That's how they bounce radio waves off the 'ionosphere'.

Clare73 said:
Which is precisely correct. There was a huge band of water in the heavens surrounding the earth, there was no rain on the earth until the flood of Noah when that whole band of water poured on the earth, covering the mountain tops.

And your evidence for this 'huge band of water' is...?

I suggest you go out on a clear night away from city lights and have a good look at the heavens. Look at the 'milky way', and consider that the ancients called it the 'great rift'. Marvel at the beautiful patch-up job God has done after it tore, bringing the flood from the waters above. That's the non-Babylonian view.

Just try to think of any spinning ball with water able to conforming to its external surface, and a great vacuum sucking it outwards. Show me a working model please, because it's physically impossi-ball. Unless...you invoke the magic idol...Grabbity! Rofl.

Clare73 said:
My Bible states that it was a sphere, states nothing about its motion, and that it was enclosed in water until the flood of Noah. What is the problem with that?

It does no such thing. Bible truth crucified again. As Luther pointed out, Joshua commands the sun to stand still (over Gibeon), not the earth (Jos 10:12).

1213 · Jan 28, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
...What is eternal punishment in hell if not torture? ...Do you believe the scripture that is translated as eternal punishment or not?

Because of Matt. 10:28, I believe it is destruction. And because there is no coming back, after one is destroyed, it is eternal solution. It is also eternal, because the fire burns forever.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 29, 2021

1213 said:
Because of Matt. 10:28, I believe it is destruction. And because there is no coming back, after one is destroyed, it is eternal solution. It is also eternal, because the fire burns forever.

How can is be both eternal punishment and eternal destruction? Destruction is final, punishment is ongoing.

So you're saying you don't accept Matt 25:46 then?

1213 · Jan 29, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
How can is be both eternal punishment and eternal destruction? Destruction is final, punishment is ongoing.

So you're saying you don't accept Matt 25:46 then?

I accept the whole Bible.

The fire lake that burns forever is the punishment. It exists forever and because of that it is an eternal punishment, it never vanishes. I don’t think it means people are conscious there eternally. But, this is only how I understand it, perhaps I am wrong.

… Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:43

Interesting question is also, what is the fire, because it is also said:

And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna.
James 3:6

Because of that, hell (Gehenna) is not in my opinion regular earthly fire. And that is why it maybe that it is a place where unrighteous live eternally and they themselves are the fire that burns. Reason why I think they are not living is that eternal life is promised only for righteous and the hell is the second death.

…Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Null/Voided Out

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Blood-bought

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Blood-bought

Disciple of Jesus

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Blood-bought

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Disciple of Jesus

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Disciple of Jesus

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