Who is an Authentic Jew?

A.ModerateOne

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The word Jew(s) is found 186 times in the KJV NT. It is a translation of the Greek Ioudaios, or Judean, Strong's G2453. The Greek Ioudaios is found in one additional verse translated "men of Judea".

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:" (Acts 2:14 KJV)

If the word in the Greek is actually Judean rather than Jew, and the Judean was able to practice their Old Covenant religion up until the destruction of the Temple in 70AD; how can any person be properly identified as being a Jew/Judean in this day? The Judaism of today is NOT the Old Covenant religion recorded in the Bible so how can it be connected to any Bible prophecy? Is being a Jew in this day nothing but a matter of culture that is very loosely if at all connected to the Bible? It is a question seldom posed in fundamentalist and evangelical circles.

Even Orthodox Jews speak against the modern Zionist State of Israel -

Why Orthodox Jews are Opposed to the Zionist State
 

Dave L

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Circumcision, not birth, made one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. When Christ abolished circumcision, that post Calvary generation became gentiles by default who call themselves Jews and Israel but are in no way related to biblical Israel aka the church.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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That depends if the promise belongs to the flesh or the heart of the matter ...

Zechariah 8

3 Thus saith Jehovah: I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called The city of truth; and the mountain of Jehovah of hosts, The holy mountain. 4 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith Jehovah of hosts. 7 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities; 21 and the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also. 22 Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah. 23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a (spiritual) Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.


Except that the Lord Sabaoth had left this seed all would be like sodom and gomoriah Romans 9:29
 
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Rene Loup

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I could be wrong, but I would say physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel. I say this because Jews are an ethnoreligious group, a people with their ethnicity and religion strongly intertwined.[1]

Here is a map of Roman occupied Judea (Dark Red):[2][3]

1024px-Iudaea_SPQR.png

  1. What does ethnoreligious group mean?
  2. Judea (Roman province) - Wikipedia
  3. Judaea | region, Middle East
 
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Dave L

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That depends if the promise belongs to the flesh or the heart of the matter ...

Zechariah 8

3 Thus saith Jehovah: I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called The city of truth; and the mountain of Jehovah of hosts, The holy mountain. 4 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith Jehovah of hosts. 7 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities; 21 and the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also. 22 Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah. 23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a (spiritual) Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.


Except that the Lord Sabaoth had left this seed all would be like sodom and gomoriah
You are ignoring the means by which one became a physical Jew or a physical member of Israel. It was always circumcision. It's a religion, not a race.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Then why is the thread in an exposition of scripture and bible study?

  • Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.
  • That is not the Zion of the bible.
 
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Dave L

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I could be wrong, but I would say physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel. I say this because Jews are an ethnoreligious group, a people with their ethnicity and religion strongly intertwined.[1]

Here is a map of Roman occupied Judea (Dark Red):[2][3]

View attachment 294042
  1. What does ethnoreligious group mean?
  2. Judea (Roman province) - Wikipedia
  3. Judaea | region, Middle East
But all were gentiles until circumcised. Was Abraham originally a gentile?
 
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BrotherJJ

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From the physical perspective:

From Adam to Noah 10 generations. Then 10 generations from Noahs son Shem to Abram. Abrams father Eber/Heber was the 4th generation from Shem. All of the descendants of Heber/Eber were Hebrews. Abram was Eber/Heber 6th generation, therefore, a Hebrew.

Hebrews weren't Jews, because Judah, from who the Jews are descend was not yet born. When the time came that were Jews are on earth. A very small portion of them were Hebrews, yet, most Hebrews weren't Jews.

Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob. God later changes Jacob's name to Israel. Israel/Jacob has 12 sons: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphthali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph & Benjamin. Jacob/Israel gives each son becomes head of a Tribe called after his own name.

It's Jacobs 4th son, Judah, who's descends become Jews. A being simple abbreviation of the name Judah.

Abraham, Isaac, nor Jacob were Jews. Only Judah's descendants can be called by his name.
 
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Rene Loup

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But all were gentiles until circumcised. Was Abraham originally a gentile?

Probably. Abraham was THE founding father of the Jewish race, literally. He also fathered the Arab people through Ishmael (Genesis 16:1-15, 21:8-20, 25:12-18).[1] His other son, Isaac, also had two sons: Esau and Jacob (Genesis 25:19-34). Esau fathered the Edomites (Genesis 36:1-43) while Jacob further fathered the Jewish people. Hence why the Bible refers to Him as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel (Exodus 3:4-7, Matthew 22:29-32)

One could argue that George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson were originally British, not truly American. These men happen to be the FOUNDING FATHERS of the American nation and people, not American citizens by birth.

In these two examples, these men were the origin story of entire groups of people, whom made valuable contributions to human progress.
  1. Ishmael | Meaning, Facts, & Significance
 
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Victor in Christ

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But all were gentiles until circumcised. Was Abraham originally a gentile?

inward circumcision makes one a Jew/Hebrew. Doesn't matter if your circumcised outwardly/call yourself a Jew/born into a Jewish family/tribe, go to church every week, brought up in a Christian family, etc.

The new birth in Christ is essential to get into the kingdom of heaven and see our saviour face to face, enter into the 12 gates of the heavenly Jerusalem be it from the East side, the North side, the South side, the West side (Ezekiel 48)....walk on the heavenly city pathed with gold, sing endless halleuyah's to our King of Kings and Lord of Lords, be amazed at the heavenly hosts that surround and give praise to him eternally for defeating death for sinners like us.

Oh what a sight, our earthly bodies couldn't withstand such delight, ect...that's why we have to be transformed/glorified (like Christ) after death into a new incoruptable (undefiled/sinless body) to enter Heaven.
 
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A.ModerateOne

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So, all the prophecy preachers talk of 1948 and the UN creating the modern State of Israel is 'read into' the Scriptures and not actually any specific fulfillment? I'm strongly inclined to believe that idea is false, read into the Scriptures rather than being found taught there. No one can show a connection between Jews of today and the Judeans of Jesus' day. That silly idea that the "fig tree" represents Israel in Matt. 24:32 is not found in Scripture, but in the Apocalypse of Peter, a Gnostic book which can be read in the Gnostic Library:

"And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel?"
The Apocalypse of Peter -- Gnostic Society Library: Christian Apocrypha and Early Christian Literature
 
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Victor in Christ

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In the OT the Jews/Israel were a CHOSEN people so Christ could be born, die and shed his blood for our transgressions, rise on the 3rd day to sit at the Father's right hand ever interceeding on our behalf through the Holy Spirit.

Since then and it continues today, many people have been lead astray by false teachers with itching ears of new doctrines, old Jewish fables etc. Paul warns Timothy of that in his letters.

Pray for the Jews and Gentiles of today, pray that many may KNOW Christ as their saviour and turn from Saul's into Paul's.....don't despise them or force anything upon them. God is sovreign over everything and he knows when the time is right, simply witness and preach the Gospel to both Jew and Gentile.

God Bless
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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So, all the prophecy preachers talk of 1948 and the UN creating the modern State of Israel is 'read into' the Scriptures and not actually any specific fulfillment? I'm strongly inclined to believe that idea is false, read into the Scriptures rather than being found taught there. No one can show a connection between Jews of today and the Judeans of Jesus' day. That silly idea that the "fig tree" represents Israel in Matt. 24:32 is not found in Scripture, but in the Apocalypse of Peter, a Gnostic book which can be read in the Gnostic Library:

"And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel?"
The Apocalypse of Peter -- Gnostic Society Library: Christian Apocrypha and Early Christian Literature
1948 they becamee independant and correlates to Genesis 11 1948 BC from what I have read of Jewish typology. As to the original post Isaiah 22 may give more insite into who is a Jew. Other than that your guess is as good as mine w/o facts.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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The word Jew(s) is found 186 times in the KJV NT. It is a translation of the Greek Ioudaios, or Judean, Strong's G2453. The Greek Ioudaios is found in one additional verse translated "men of Judea".

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:" (Acts 2:14 KJV)

If the word in the Greek is actually Judean rather than Jew, and the Judean was able to practice their Old Covenant religion up until the destruction of the Temple in 70AD; how can any person be properly identified as being a Jew/Judean in this day? The Judaism of today is NOT the Old Covenant religion recorded in the Bible so how can it be connected to any Bible prophecy? Is being a Jew in this day nothing but a matter of culture that is very loosely if at all connected to the Bible? It is a question seldom posed in fundamentalist and evangelical circles.

Even Orthodox Jews speak against the modern Zionist State of Israel -

Why Orthodox Jews are Opposed to the Zionist State
They follow Rabbinic Judaism , mainstream since the 6th century. They hold to the Torah and the Talmud. The Talmud was never part of Gods law, therefore made from man's theological system. Additionally, there is no Temple to fulfill the Mosaic law in Torah. So it stands to reason that Jews today are by ethnicity and not by Covenant. Be blessed.
 
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A.ModerateOne

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Ecclesiastes 7:16

The Puritan John Trapp has an interesting comment within his commentary on Eccl. 7:16

"Again, he is righteous more than is meet that maketh sins where God hath made none, as those superstitiostdi of old, and the Papists to this day do with their "Touch not, taste not, handle not: which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship," &c. {Colossians 2:21; Colossians 2:23} Will worshippers are usually over wise, i.e., overweening, and also too well conceited of their own wisdom and worth."

I've always thought the statement in the Westminster Confession is right to the point on this:

Westminster Confession of Faith, 1647;
"God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in any thing contrary to His Word; or beside it, in matters of faith or worship."
 
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Dave L

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inward circumcision makes one a Jew/Hebrew. Doesn't matter if your circumcised outwardly/call yourself a Jew/born into a Jewish family/tribe, go to church every week, brought up in a Christian family, etc.

The new birth in Christ is essential to get into the kingdom of heaven and see our saviour face to face, enter into the 12 gates of the heavenly Jerusalem be it from the East side, the North side, the South side, the West side (Ezekiel 48)....walk on the heavenly city pathed with gold, sing endless halleuyah's to our King of Kings and Lord of Lords, be amazed at the heavenly hosts that surround and give praise to him eternally for defeating death for sinners like us.

Oh what a sight, our earthly bodies couldn't withstand such delight, ect...that's why we have to be transformed/glorified (like Christ) after death into a new incoruptable (undefiled/sinless body) to enter Heaven.
This is true but misses the point that today's self-proclaimed State of Israel is purely gentile having nothing to do with Biblical Israel the Church.
 
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Dave L

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Probably. Abraham was THE founding father of the Jewish race, literally. He also fathered the Arab people through Ishmael (Genesis 16:1-15, 21:8-20, 25:12-18).[1] His other son, Isaac, also had two sons: Esau and Jacob (Genesis 25:19-34). Esau fathered the Edomites (Genesis 36:1-43) while Jacob further fathered the Jewish people. Hence why the Bible refers to Him as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel (Exodus 3:4-7, Matthew 22:29-32)

One could argue that George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson were originally British, not truly American. These men happen to be the FOUNDING FATHERS of the American nation and people, not American citizens by birth.

In these two examples, these men were the origin story of entire groups of people, whom made valuable contributions to human progress.
  1. Ishmael | Meaning, Facts, & Significance
There is only one race, the human race. Racism stems from thinking races exist.
 
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Dave L

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Prom the physical perspective:

From Adam to Noah 10 generations. Then 10 generations from Noahs son Shem to Abram. Abrams father Eber/Heber was the 4th generation from Shem. All of the descendants of Heber/Eber were Hebrews. Abram was Eber/Heber 6th generation, therefore, a Hebrew.

Hebrews weren't Jews, because Judah, from who the Jews are descend was not yet born. When the time came that were Jews are on earth. A very small portion of them were Hebrews, yet, most Hebrews weren't Jews.

Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob. God later changes Jacob's name to Israel. Israel/Jacob has 12 sons: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphthali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph & Benjamin. Jacob/Israel gives each son becomes head of a Tribe called after his own name.

It's Jacobs 4th son, Judah, who's descends become Jews. A being simple abbreviation of the name Judah.

Abraham, Isaac, nor Jacob were Jews. Only Judah's descendants can be called by his name.
True, but we are using the term Jew in the everyday sense.
 
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