Is Evangelicalism a false religion?

Clare73

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In simplest terms, it's a confusion of Law and Gospel, and a confusion of Justification and Sanctification. Under Lordship Salvation a person who is not showing a transformed life of surrender and submission to Jesus is a person who probably isn't saved. When we make our performance the metric by which our salvation is to be ascertained we are no longer talking about grace and God's own indelible promises which He has attached to His Word and Sacrament. It is no longer about God's own work, and His promises, and what God has done which are the basis of our faith and salvation; but our own works and performance.

Yes, I should be faithful to God's commandments.
Yes, faith does produce good works.,

But my faithfulness and good works do absolutely nothing as it pertains to my standing before God. Because my justification before God is something God alone has done, in Christ.

It has nothing to do with me believing the right things, doing the right things, feeling the right things, thinking the right things, or even willing the right things.

I did not choose Him, He chose me, a sinner.
I did not accept Him, He accepted me, a sinner.
He gave me His righteousness, freely, entirely apart from me.
That is the only righteousness I have before God, it is the only righteousness that counts before God--the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Our good works, the works which spring from faith, are not for God, they are not righteousness Coram Deo; they are righteousness Coram Mundus. Righteousness before the world.
God doesn't need my good works, but my neighbor does. My neighbor is the one that is hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, alone, a stranger, and in prison.

-CryptoLutheran
Thanks. . .very good.

So, you're saying they confuse sanctification (holiness) with justification (forgiveness of sin), and believe that justification (forgiveness of sin) depends on sanctification (holiness)?

Would MacArthur agree with that assessment of their relationship of sanctification to justification? From what I can tell, he's a smart guy. Would he be given to making that kind of mistake?

Remember justification (declared "not guilty," condemnation removed, given right-standing before God) is not sanctification (holiness).

God redeemed us to be holy (set apart from sin, and to God). . .

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord."
(Heb 12:14)

There is a serious work of separation from sin (holiness) that must take place.

Jesus said that our sin must be radically dealt with (Mk 9:43-48), right?

"God doesn't need our good works. . .our neighbor does," so is our holiness for God, or our neighbor?

Would that necessary work of separation from sin be what MacArthur means by "Lordship Salvation"?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thanks. . .very good.

So, you're saying they confuse sanctification (holiness) with justification (forgiveness of sin), and believe that justification (forgiveness of sin) depends on sanctification (holiness)?

Would MacArthur agree with that assessment of their relationship of sanctification to justification? From what I can tell, he's a smart guy. Would he be given to making that kind of mistake?

Remember justification (declared "not guilty," condemnation removed, given right-standing before God) is not sanctification (holiness).

God redeemed us to be holy (set apart from sin, and to God). . .

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord."
(Heb 12:14)

There is a serious work of separation from sin (holiness) that must take place.

Jesus said that our sin must be radically dealt with (Mk 9:43-48), right?

And our sin was radically dealt with--by the cross. But as far as our sanctification goes, yes, we are not to give sin any quarter. But we are simul iustus et peccator,, both saint and sinner. Sanctification is not about climbing up a ladder of moral progress, but the working of God in our lives. What may be a struggle for me may not be a struggle for you, the exact form that the cross of discipleship that I must carry may not be identical to yours.

God's promise is that the work which He began He will continue to do, right up until the day of the Lord's return. And so each and every Christian is the workmanship of God. But each and every one of us, though we should not, also very often works against that--the old man constantly trying to assert itself, which is why we must daily drown the old man in repentance.

Our Lord gave His apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name, and so Absolution has been granted to the Church, so that we might freely confess our sins, and freely have our sins proclaimed forgiven. So we can freely avail ourselves to God's grace which is present here in Word and Sacrament.

The Christian life is not a life of upward spiritual or moral progress, but a life lived in repentance and humility in light of grace. To freely, and indeed boldly, confess that we are sinners; and that according to God's just command we are condemned in our sin. Yet! Glory be to God who saves us in Christ. Therefore while the Law reckons me a sinner, and the harder I try to obey the Law the more insidious and hideous my sin is--so that by no means am I ever righteous or holy by my own striving of obedience to the command of God. That is the harshness of the Law, and it is ever the reminder of my own sinfulness. For the command that says I should love my neighbor as myself is the command that shows me to fail to love my neighbor, time and again, I fail. So that as the Apostle says, the command that was meant to bring life brings instead death.

Therefore, wretched man that I am, who can save me from this body of death? For sin remains even in my very members. Christ does, for the Gospel is the sweet and soothing word of God that my sins are forgiven, though I may rage against God being found His enemy, God has reconciled me to Himself through Christ who suffered and died and rose again. I therefore have life with God apart from the Law, by His grace, through faith, in Christ alone.

The Law which commands me how I ought to live, is the Law that condemns me in my failure to live as I ought. So that should I strive a thousand years trying to be righteous, I never will be. But God, with one marvelous and scandalous act, has done for me what I could never do--make me just.

And therefore I, wretched sinner that I am, am nevertheless righteous on Christ's account.

Yes, faith produces good works.
But no, the good works which come from faith do not improve me before God.

The problem isn't in saying that Christ is Lord, and if He is Lord, therefore I am to reckon myself a slave and servant--because of course that is true. The Apostle has clearly taught that in light of the grace we received in Holy Baptism we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, and as slaves to God. And not only as slaves to God, but as slaves to our fellow man for whom we are called to live and show our good works. As it is written, we have been created for good works.

The problem is in tying that to our status before God, by presenting the call to die and to walk in good works as a measurement of who we are before God. As though, by any measure of a man, he could be regarded as anything other than a wretch and sinner when standing before God's righteous and holy commandment.

There can be left no room for confusion on this. The insidiousness of the Opinio Legis--the Opinion of the Law--and the absolute necessity of making the distinction between Law and Gospel means that we simply cannot present the arena of our discipleship to our righteous standing before God. We are righteous because of grace alone, for we have received Christ's righteousness as pure gift. Our discipleship is the working of grace in our lives, and we have to entrust ourselves to Him who loves us, and not attempt to measure ourselves according to our moral ability (or, more truthfully, our inability).

Mortal sin drives out faith, but the one who (to quote St. Paul) "makes shipwreck of their faith" isn't merely a person whose sin is strong but who sorrowfully grieves over his sin and desperately prays for mercy in repentance. Such a person is one who makes shipwreck of their faith because they have turned away from repentance, whose hearts have grown callous, and thus they depart from faith.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'll be interested to read that, and while many credit Luther and the Magisterials as the champions of sola scriptura I'm not sure it's something that a single person can be credited with coming up with, but Jan Hus was condemned for holding it at Constance 100 years before Luther. It's certainly not as simple as an evil Catholic church vs the noble reformers, and was largely a matter of popular revolt against French occupation of Germany and Switzerland but many of the issues aimed at the clerics were genuine. The prohibitions on preaching in anything but Latin, the persecution of lay preachers for unauthorized preaching of the gospel, the persecution for unauthorized translation of the Bible, the church was more about secular power than spiritual edification and much of its theology was new theologies developed between ~1200-1400 and stood in stark contrast to what is written in the Bible. The counter reformation brought a lot of positive changes in the Catholic church, but without the pressure of Luther and those at Geneva it's unclear if the issues would have been corrected.
I agree with your last sentence. So did Joseph Ratzinger.
 
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Saint Steven

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Rather. he died only for the elect and based on that God gives us a new saved personality that believes and obeys scripture by nature.
No, not only for the elect.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
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Saint Steven

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So, have we all figured out whether or not "Evangelicalism" is a false religion yet?

I see 23 pages of discussion, and I'm still wondering... :rolleyes:
I don't think anyone, including myself is ready to call Evangelicalism a false religion. But most agree that the behavior of John MacArthur was unacceptable for ANY Christian. That's my take.
 
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Saint Steven

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You've already asked about consensus and how to reach it. Consensus necessarily implies drawing a line, defining-limiting-the nature and will of God in some manner IOW. To say that God hates evil is to practice just such limiting for example.

So, again, where do we draw the line? Who will draw that line? The bible can't do it on its own since it must be filtered thru human minds by necessity; it has no independent built-in electronic catechism that explains everything and answers any questions and reconciles controversies. So what does limiting God even consist of? Do we not exclude anyone who claims to have knowledge of God? Mormonism, JWs, Muslims? Protestants with widely divergent views? Who can draw the line?
That's not at all what I meant by "limiting God".

Saint Steven said:
So, you have joined the "limiting God" club as well? Okay. Why?

Saint Steven said:
In many cases, religion is preferred over a relationship.
 
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Saint Steven

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To your satisfaction? I wouldn't even bother to try.
Seemed like a ridiculous question to me. You were writing about the early church fathers. Which was outside the canon. How could that begin to be proven from "scripture"? (the canon)

Dave L said:
You cannot prove your position from scripture.
 
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Aussie Pete

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And all you’ve really said here is that you disagree with them on their interpretation.
No. The Book of Mormon directly contradicts the Bible. The JW's New World Translation deliberately mistranslates portions of the Bible that state that Jesus is God in human form. That's just the start of their heresies.
 
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Saint Steven

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There was a pedigreed choosing of successors, and they were known to be successors because of who had ordained them. They didn't just buy a shingle and paint it and put it up.
Ouch! - lol
 
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mark46

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Seemed like a ridiculous question to me. You were writing about the early church fathers. Which was outside the canon. How could that begin to be proven from "scripture"? (the canon)

Dave L said:
You cannot prove your position from scripture.
especially since some of these fathers taught before there was a cannonized Scripture.
 
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mark46

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Ouch! - lol
Perhaps we focus too much on succession, but the principle is important. Jesus directly taught the early leaders of the Church. This knowledge was passed on from generation to generation. Yes, the system was formalized and it became from bishop to bishop. We can argue about whether the line was ever broken, but the principle remains, the knowledge and teachings were passed on.

The other extreme alternative is that nothing was passed on, only Scripture in acceptable translations. Some only accept KJV. Imagine just how silly this must seem to non-English speakers. For these folks, the bible speaks for itself. Or said another way, an individual's interpretation of the Word is as valid as anyone's else's.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I don't think anyone, including myself is ready to call Evangelicalism a false religion. But most agree that the behavior of John MacArthur was unacceptable for ANY Christian. That's my take.

And I think you have a good head on your shoulders, Steven! MacArthur does need to loosen up just a wee bit and learn to enjoy smelling the flowers, especially if he's going to share the evangelical 'tag' with Christians from other denominations.

I think you made the right call.

... the info I posted earlier is more or less there for anyone who might find it helpful. :cool:
 
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Saint Steven

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Perhaps we focus too much on succession, but the principle is important. Jesus directly taught tthe early leaders of the Church. This knowledge was passed on from generation to generation. yes, the system was formalized and it became from bishop to bishop. We can argues about whether the line was ever broken, but the principle remains, the knowledge and teachings were passed on.

The other extreme alternative is nothing was passed on, only Scripture in acceptable translations. Some only accept KJV. Imagine just how silly this must seem to non-English speakers. For these folks, the bible speaks for itself. Or said another way, an individual's interpretation of the Word is as valid as anyone's else's.
From my perspective, I don't think God chose a single track to run his church on. He is not limited that way. The Church formed by succession fulfills an important function in the body of Christ. But not the only function. God has worked through other means and created other "tracks" to run his church on.

I was raised as a Protestant Evangelical. Not by choice. At eight years of age God spoke to me audibly in an Evangelical summer camp morning chapel meeting. (probably with the aforementioned shingle for a sign) In speaking to me, God called me into a personal relationship with him. Ironically, the son of the man that lead my father to the Lord was the one that led me to the Lord. I responded to his invitation when God spoke to me. I didn't make the connection until I was an adult.

I was an adult before I knew anything about Apostolic Succession. Say what?
 
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mark46

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The Church is many things. It is the protector of the Truth and teachings of Jesus, as passed on through the centuries. The Church protects the documents of the faith, and provides a place for developing understandings of the faith that are clearly needed as we pass from age to age. Yes, the Church provides that best current understanding of the faith. The Church protects the liturgy as it develops from time to time. We are what we pray, as say our Anglican brothers and sisters. The Church provides many ways to interact with God, especially through the sacraments. And yes, the Church teaches and provides mentors, especially needed when we doubt, as we all will. Finally, the Church is a worldwide community that serves the poor and powerless throughout the world. Who is there to take care of the lepers of our day (those with HIV in the last decades)?
====================
YOU SUGGEST A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION
You point out there are other ways up the mountain in our journey to union with God. Surely, there are many paths up the mountain.

You suggest that God works through evangelical fellowships. I don't want to divert us and draw the arrows of outrage, but obviously, there are many fellowships and people through which God speaks to us so that we might be more conformed to Him, to walk in His Way, and allow the Spirit to act through us more each and every day.

I would simply note that Church provide a way station for those on the Pilgrim Journey. We can always stop and be replenished. BTW, so many have taught me that this is a primary function of the Sunday worship (non-traditional Protestants) or mass (more traditionalists). We go to be able to better go out and do God's work. Sometimes the way station can provide enough to be able to go forward for along time. But understand, the way station is there.


From my perspective, I don't think God chose a single track to run his church on. He is not limited that way. The Church formed by succession fulfills an important function in the body of Christ. But not the only function. God has worked through other means and created other "tracks" to run his church on.

I was raised as a Protestant Evangelical. Not by choice. At eight years of age God spoke to me audibly in an Evangelical summer camp morning chapel meeting. (probably with the aforementioned shingle for a sign) In speaking to me, God called me into a personal relationship with him. Ironically, the son of the man that lead my father to the Lord was the one that led me to the Lord. I responded to his invitation when God spoke to me. I didn't make the connection until I was an adult.

I was an adult before I knew anything about Apostolic Succession. Say what?
 
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mark46

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Somehow this thread has reminded me of a series of books by Father Girzone in which God comes to the earth in our generation. In one book, the denominations are addressed. In this time, we were coming close to ahve a new pope who would bring the denominations back into the one Church.

The bishops of a diocese meet and decide to jointly lead the diocese, alternating as I recall. The bishops couldn't wait. The Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and Anglican bishops were fine with the arrangement. The Methodist bishop needed to check and pray about it, and eventually joined.
 
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Saint Steven

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Somehow this thread has reminded me of a series of books by Father Girzone in which God comes to the earth in our generation. In one book, the denominations are addressed. In this time, we were coming close to ahve a new pope who would bring the denominations back into the one Church.

The bishops of a diocese meet and decide to jointly lead the diocese, alternating as I recall. The bishops couldn't wait. The Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and Anglican bishops were fine with the arrangement. The Methodist bishop needed to check and pray about it, and eventually joined.
It seems that unity is achieved when the rest of the world surrenders their dreams and follows ours instead. Unfortunately for them, this is tyranny.
 
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mark46

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It seems that unity is achieved when the rest of the world surrenders their dreams and follows ours instead. Unfortunately for them, this is tyranny.

Part of the point is the leadership of the churches well recognize that we have unity in essentials (as Augustine said. World leaders have been meeting, praying and agreeing for a century. In the local leaders and priests who are the issue. The older brother (a scriptural reference) or the elder brothers (more modern).

When you say tyranny, by whom, over whom? In a given year, we attend two churches. I certainly don't feel that the pope or the Archbishop Of Canterbury are in any way tyrannical toward anyone. I would be surprised if I would differently about the head of the Worldwide Lutheran Federation, or any of the patriarchs not centered in Moscow.
 
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Saint Steven

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When you say tyranny, by whom, over whom?
Your post above contained this statement. "... a new pope who would bring the denominations back into the one Church."

This might be a dream come true for Catholics, but a potential nightmare for most Protestants. (tyranny)

I know I wouldn't be happy about the change and would most likely join the millions of Christians that currently no longer attend church. Many of whom are on this forum.
 
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fhansen

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That's not at all what I meant by "limiting God".

Saint Steven said:
So, you have joined the "limiting God" club as well? Okay. Why?

Saint Steven said:
In many cases, religion is preferred over a relationship.
Ok, but our religion's purpose is to establish relationship between man and God. So can we do without religion? I mean, religiosity is wrong. But the place of the Christian religion is to preserve and spread the gospel, so that we may hear, and by hearing we may believe. Is that "limiting God"?
 
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