Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

Kermos

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Does everyone in the audience of these teachers of the word, ??believe??? Some people are blamed for not believing, so could they believe?

By the work of God, a person can believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29). A person cannot believe according to the self-will of the person (2 Peter 2:9-10). A person cannot work a "choice" within oneself to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (Ephesians 2:8-9). God must enable a person to be able to hear the word of eternal life.

People with ears to hear, Lord Jesus says "those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), which means that their word, and Jesus is their Word, carries "those also who" to believe. For example, Matthew left words of eternal life in the first book of the New Testament Bible! By the way, the word "choice" is absent, so there is no concept of "choice" by man represented therein.

Jesus told the audience that asked: John 6: 28 Then they asked him, ??What must we do to do the works God requires? And Jesus answered this group: ??to believe in the one he has sent??, yet many walked away, at this time, finding Jesus?? teaching hard, but could they have believed? If they could not believe then Jesus?? answer should have been: ??You can do nothing??.

That is not in the context of, John 6:28-29 is not saying that at all, since in the context the people are asking about the work they need to do, which is a fair question and Jesus answered them. You would have Jesus not answering the crowd and going off on some philosophically statement saying what God does?

You removed the very words of Jesus in your citation, so here is John 6:28-29 in their entirety:

28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now, notice that Jesus attributes the "you believe in Him whom He has sent" portion of John 6:29 to "This is the work of God" portion of John 6:29.

What they asked matters, but Jesus' word in response is clear that, despite the "work the works of God" in their question, His words define faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent as the work of God. Not a work of man, but Christ states exclusively "the work of God".

Furthermore, you misapply when the people left. The poeple left later, after Jesus mentions eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:56) - it was after that that the Apostle John recorded:

Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this] said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" (John 6:60).

It was not the "work of God" answer (John 6:29, nor the answer's question (John 6:28), which scripture indicates as related to the people leaving; rather, it was the difficult statement indicated in John 6:60.

Your interpretation is error.

Decisively, Lord Jesus defines faith/belief when He says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Do the elect ever choose God?

Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), and in no place does scripture indicate that man chooses God.

Do you consider worship to be work?

I'm going to stick with salvation being the work of God while corresponding with you, at least right now.

How would free-will lead to people denying God, if they did not have free-will to do so?

Free-will allows humans to obtain and grow Godly type Love and thus become like God Himself in that they have Godly type Love.

You are trying to add man's freewill choice of God unto salvation into scripture again, but such is not a part of scripture. Then you try to get me to explain to you how something-not-in-scripture is not-in-scripture.

Jesus chose the 12.

Judas Iscariot was NOT there when Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Let me reiterate, Judas Iscariot was not there when Jesus Christ said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

There is no glory, no righteousness, no holiness, no honor, and no worthiness in a human for selfish reasons wimping out, giving up and surrendering when he comes to his senses and turning to the father which is at his elbow. The sinner at that point is still hating God, but is just willing to accept undeserved charity from his enemy.

A person who claims to choose Jesus, such a person claims inherent righteousness to recognize to do a righteous work by "choosing" God (yet the Word of God indicates that none is righteous [Romans 3:10]), such a person claims glory in the person's work of a "choice", such a person boasts, such a person has pride in the person's claimed "choice".

There is no New Testament scripture that states "is just willing to accept undeserved charity from his enemy" as you wrote - nothing about "willing" to "accept" Jesus. Again, you are trying to add the free-will concept to scripture.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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BNR32FAN

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Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

After corresponding and speaking with free-willians about the scriptural errancy of free will, a trend emerges about interpretations.

Free-willians cry foul when I interpret free-willian's writings, yet free-willians manipulatively interpret free will into the Word of God imagining that it's acceptable.

Because of this, free-willians exhibit hypocrisy.

Free-willians express the concept to God: do as I say, not as I do.

I accurately paraphrase and restate the writings of free-willians to demonstrate their error; on the other hand, free-willians add to and subtract from scripture to fabricate their free will foundation, and this is demonstratable.

INCIDENT EXAMPLE ONE

For example, a free willian wrote that "I could refute it all, but you've shown that would be a waste of time" thus essentially writing that discussing scripture was "a waste of time", so I paraphrased the free willian by indicating the free willian called discussing scripture worthless. The free-willian later called it "complete misrepresentation", yet the free-willian not once cited scripture for the free-willian's unsupported promotion of free will for Adam in the subject thread, so hypocrisy manifests. The free-willian takes offense at my interpretation of the free-willian's writings, but the free-willian thinks that God just needs to take the free-willian's interpretation of scripture.

Discussing scripture is not "a waste of time".

The Word of God does not return void (Isaiah 55:11).

The Word of God is good for correction (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The Word of God will never pass away (Matthew 24:35).

The Word of God is the Power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

The free-willian fails to understand about the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
INCIDENT EXAMPLE TWO

In another incident as an example, another free-willian quoted commentary which I pointed out the superiority and importance of scripture to wit the free-willian replied "I DO NOT QUOTE COMMENTARIES", so instead of acknowledging the free-willian's use of commentary the free-willian denied using commentary in a traceable lie in the thread.
INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE

In yet a third example, free willians rarely acknowledge correction about their misinterpreted scripture. Very frequently they disappear from a thread, go silent about the subject, or switch subjects - in some cases circling back to repeat their exposed error. A different free-willian acknowledged the free-willian's misinterpretation of scripture with "I can see that you have found room to squirm around Rev. 22:17" after the free willian misinterpretation was exposed. That free willian response sounds quite unrepentant for trying to alter Revelation 22:17.
In the pride of free-willian claimed choice toward God, they are unapologetic for their exposed errors again and again. Exposed by the Word of God, yet they are not only unapologetic to God for trying to abuse the Word of God, but they appear unrepentant in their pride. The proud will fall in the last day without the intervention of the Sovereign Lord (Proverbs 16:18, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Free-willians exhibit more than hypocrisy that angers God, their free will foundation is shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 7:26-27).

Lord Jesus railed against hypocrites when the Word of God says "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence" (Matthew 23:25, more Matthew 23:13-36).

Many Biblical passages express the evil of man altering scripture, including Revelation 22:18-19.

The Sovereignty of God in man's salvation with no basis in man's choice is absolutely evident when taking scripture with scripture as is prudent, and it is done in this essay: Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

SCRIPTURE CROSS REFERENCING

Cross referencing scripture functions in this manner.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

In the same passage, Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), so Jesus' words include salvation in the passage.

Jesus uses "you" to refer to all believers in all time for many reasons, including that after the ascension of Jesus the Apostle Peter spoke of the Gentiles when he said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16), and Lord Jesus told the "you" at the same time as John 15:16 and John 15:19 with His words of "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:26-27).

The sequence, John 15:16 - John 15:19 - Acts 11:16 - John 14:26:27, ties everything together, so this is a first avenue for man's inability to choose Jesus.

Investigating a separate avenue of bringing God's exclusive choosing of man unto salvation is the passage:

"When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, 'Then who can be saved?' And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, 'With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" (Matthew 19:25-26). This exchange exposes that man cannot "do" something to be saved, and that "do" includes man "doing" a choosing of Jesus.

The correlation between John 15:16 - John 15:19 - Matthew 19:25-26 ties everything together, so this is a second avenue for man's inability to choose Jesus.

This concludes the cross referencing scripture example.
God saves (Psalm 3:8, John 15:5), and man has no say in the matter (John 15:16). God sanctifies (Leviticus 20:8, John 15:5). God gets all glory in the salvation and sanctification of man (Isaiah 42:8).

God declares Who God is by the Word of God.

Humility is contrary to free will because free will includes a person exercising a choice, so there is pride in the claim of being able to choose.

Do you think a free willian can stick to scripture and remain a free willian?

You really shouldn’t stereotype my friend. Don’t judge all who believe in free will by the errors of a few within that group. That’s called bigotry. It’s best to just address each individual case as they present themselves. If you’d like to discuss the matter of free will I’ll be more than happy to accommodate you in a polite and friendly manner my friend.
 
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BNR32FAN

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By the work of God, a person can believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29). A person cannot believe according to the self-will of the person (2 Peter 2:9-10). A person cannot work a "choice" within oneself to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (Ephesians 2:8-9). God must enable a person to be able to hear the word of eternal life.

People with ears to hear, Lord Jesus says "those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), which means that their word, and Jesus is their Word, carries "those also who" to believe. For example, Matthew left words of eternal life in the first book of the New Testament Bible! By the way, the word "choice" is absent, so there is no concept of "choice" by man represented therein.



You removed the very words of Jesus in your citation, so here is John 6:28-29 in their entirety:

28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now, notice that Jesus attributes the "you believe in Him whom He has sent" portion of John 6:29 to "This is the work of God" portion of John 6:29.

What they asked matters, but Jesus' word in response is clear that, despite the "work the works of God" in their question, His words define faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent as the work of God. Not a work of man, but Christ states exclusively "the work of God".

Furthermore, you misapply when the people left. The poeple left later, after Jesus mentions eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:56) - it was after that that the Apostle John recorded:

Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this] said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" (John 6:60).

It was not the "work of God" answer (John 6:29, nor the answer's question (John 6:28), which scripture indicates as related to the people leaving; rather, it was the difficult statement indicated in John 6:60.

Your interpretation is error.

Decisively, Lord Jesus defines faith/belief when He says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).



Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), and in no place does scripture indicate that man chooses God.



I'm going to stick with salvation being the work of God while corresponding with you, at least right now.



You are trying to add man's freewill choice of God unto salvation into scripture again, but such is not a part of scripture. Then you try to get me to explain to you how something-not-in-scripture is not-in-scripture.



Judas Iscariot was NOT there when Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Let me reiterate, Judas Iscariot was not there when Jesus Christ said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).



A person who claims to choose Jesus, such a person claims to to a righteous thing, such a person claims glory in the person's "choice", such a person boasts, such a person has pride in the person's claimed "choice".

There is no New Testament scripture that states "is just willing to accept undeserved charity from his enemy" as you wrote - nothing about "willing" to "accept" Jesus. Again, you are trying to add the free-will concept to scripture.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
[/QUOTE]

I notice you quoted John 15:16, what about John 15:2 and John 15:6? I agree with you that no one can accept Christ unless he has been granted grace from The Father but the scriptures are clear that The Father grants grace to some who later fall away. Grace enables us to believe and repent it does not force us to. A person still hasn’t lost their free will when they received God’s grace.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Tra Phull fails to discern that the Word of God indicates there is no free will throughout scripture. Here is a big one, the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, which includes salvation because of the words "out of the world").

He just finished telling them to remain in Him like 10 statements ago.

“Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in Me, and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I also have loved you; remain in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

How is that not a perfect example of free will?
 
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BNR32FAN

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No scripture support for free will means that free will does not exist.

Free will does exist in the scriptures. Romans 2 is a perfect example.

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

God has granted these people grace and yet by their own free will they are stubbornly refusing to repent.
 
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Kermos

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Free will does exist in the scriptures. Romans 2 is a perfect example.

??Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.??
????Romans?? ??2:4-11?? ??NASB2020????

God has granted these people grace and yet by their own free will they are stubbornly refusing to repent.

Free will is not mentioned a single time in Romans 2:4-11. Not once. choice is not mentioned. No accepting. There is no concrete free will in scripture. Freewill is not implied in Romans 2:4-11.

You are sorely mistaken when you wrote "God has granted these people grace and yet by their own free will they are stubbornly refusing to repent" for you add free will as opposed to taking scripture with scripture to see that the "first nature" works in those people thus there is no knowledge in those people "that the kindness of God leads" people "to repentance" (see Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor for further explanation of the new creation that Paul mentions as well as the old things/"first nature"). See that Paul wrote "not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance" - that word "knowing" explains a LOT.

Those people are not good (Romans 3:12) for Paul wrote of those people "because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God" (Romans 2:5).

Those people cannot repent on their own. They have NOT been granted repentance by God (2 Timothy 2:25).

God is the One that grants repentance just as Paul indicates here "God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4).

Again, notice that Romans 2:4-11 does NOT state those people could choose God.

People that add to scripture face a deadly penalty, for it is written "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19). That has a LOT to do with lying about scripture.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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bling

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By the work of God, a person can believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29). A person cannot believe according to the self-will of the person (2 Peter 2:9-10). A person cannot work a "choice" within oneself to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (Ephesians 2:8-9). God must enable a person to be able to hear the word of eternal life.
“Believing something is not “work”, by God’s definition of work, since all Jews were commanded not to work on the “Sabbath”, yet they were to trust God (have faith in God/believe in God) on the Sabbath. The Jews were allowed to do lots of stuff on the Sabbath, but they were not to “work” on the Sabbath.

You are not using the most likely interpretation of Ep. 2:8-9:

People use Eph 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” to show “faith” is a gift and forget about verse 9 which says: “not by works, so that no one can boast.” The gift cannot be grammatical correct and be “faith”, but you do not have to know Greek, just look at verse 9. If “faith” were the gift then Paul is telling us faith cannot be worked for and earned which is not logical or discussed as even an option anywhere else. How would people go about working to obtain faith anyway (it is to quit working, trying to do it yourself and start trusting). The “gift” in Eph. 2:8 is the whole salvation process which Paul talks about in other places, showing people trying to earn salvation.


I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:


And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.



Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8 , ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)


Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8 , kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)


Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8 ), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)



"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.


This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).


You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.


I do agree “natural faith” which all mature adults have is a gift from God and, as we know from scripture: people do place natural faith in lots of things and people even worshipping rocks and wood.


The question that needs to be asked: can this God given natural faith be directed toward the Creator, just to believe in the possibility of God’s existence? Since it takes more faith and really foolishness to believe a god does not exist.


You also need to remember the Greek word translated “Faith” in the English is also translated faithfulness. I would say one of the gifts of the Spirit is faithfulness and not faith itself.



You also seem to be assuming that if the nonbelieving sinner has just some kind of “faith”, he will make the noble, honorable, worthy, righteous and holy choice to follow God, but that type of “faith” comes much later and is part of the unbelievable wonderful gifts God showers on the sinner.


The “faith/trust”, autonomous free will choice the sinner makes is between: being macho, hanging in there, being a good soldier, and being willing to take the punishment you fully deserve or wimping out, giving up and surrendering to your enemy. Like any soldier who surrenders to his enemy, you hate your enemy, but are just willing to humbly accept undeserving charity from your enemy. That little questionable “trust” in the possibility of your enemy having an unbelievable Love that could help you is all the faith you need.


What do you consider to be man’s objective while here on earth, since the Bible has lots of “commands” to follow and any scripture given command has scriptural support for being “man’s objective”?


People with ears to hear, Lord Jesus says "those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), which means that their word, and Jesus is their Word, carries "those also who" to believe. For example, Matthew left words of eternal life in the first book of the New Testament Bible! By the way, the word "choice" is absent, so there is no concept of "choice" by man represented therein.[
You removed the very words of Jesus in your citation, so here is John 6:28-29 in their entirety:

28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now, notice that Jesus attributes the "you believe in Him whom He has sent" portion of John 6:29 to "This is the work of God" portion of John 6:29.

What they asked matters, but Jesus' word in response is clear that, despite the "work the works of God" in their question, His words define faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent as the work of God. Not a work of man, but Christ states exclusively "the work of God".
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Again, we might need to go back to the Greek grammar to see what “work” Jesus is talking about in context and we will find it is the “work” the group was asking about them doing and not God’s actual personal labor He is doing. The work=believe and God does not need to believe anything, since He knows, so it has to refer to their believing as being their Kingdom “work”.


Furthermore, you misapply when the people left. The poeple left later, after Jesus mentions eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:56) - it was after that that the Apostle John recorded:

therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this] said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" (John 6:60).
It was not the "work of God" answer (John 6:29, nor the answer's question (John 6:28), which scripture indicates as related to the people leaving; rather, it was the difficult statement indicated in John 6:60.
Your interpretation is error.

Decisively, Lord Jesus defines faith/belief when He says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
I was not suggesting that.



Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), and in no place does scripture indicate that man chooses God.
I did not say: “Sinful man chooses God”, since that would be honorable, righteous, noble, worthy and glorious. I am saying sinful man can chose to wimp out, give up and surrender to his enemy (God) while God is still his enemy he is just willing to humbly accept (his enemy’s/God’s) charity.

I'm going to stick with salvation being the work of God while corresponding with you, at least right now.

Judas Iscariot was NOT there when Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Let me reiterate, Judas Iscariot was not there when Jesus Christ said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
Jesus chose the 12, you are the one adding: “including salvation”, since that is not in those verses.



A person who claims to choose Jesus, such a person claims inherent righteousness to recognize to do a righteous work by "choosing" God (yet the Word of God indicates that none is righteous [Romans 3:10]), such a person claims glory in the person's work of a "choice", such a person boasts, such a person has pride in the person's claimed "choice".
I just got through saying the sinner did not “choose” Jesus/God, that is something those who already have salvation, Love, a church family, and a wonderful purpose in life will choose. Jesus/God is the sinner’s enemies.


There is no New Testament scripture that states "is just willing to accept undeserved charity from his enemy" as you wrote - nothing about "willing" to "accept" Jesus. Again, you are trying to add the free-will concept to scripture.
There is no scripture which says: “God forces a person to accept His charity.” Did God offer you, His charity (underserving, selfless gift) or was it forced upon you like some shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

I know it is very hard for humans to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity and will do or say almost anything to avoid having to admit to accepting pure undeserved charity, so did you ever have to accept God’s charity or did God do that for you?


There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
You provide the answer with: “those also who believe in Me through their word”, salvation comes to those other than the 12 through the “words” of the 12, by the individuals believing as a result of the words and not through some other means.
 
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BNR32FAN

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People that add to scripture face a deadly penalty, for it is written "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19). That has a LOT to do with lying about scripture.

First of all when Revelation was written there was no bible. That verse was pertaining to the book of revelation not to the entire bible but in any case you have no right to call me a liar. Your discrediting yourself by your unwarranted impolite harsh remarks. I’ve simply engaged in a polite discussion on the thread and your first reaction is to attack and insult me. I haven’t said anything to deserve such treatment. You might want to reevaluate your response here because from where I’m sitting it appears a bit dark to me brother.

Your ignoring a key factor here in Romans 2. First of all who did Paul say God’s patience and kindness was leading to salvation?

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

If your saying that these Romans have not received grace then your saying that God’s kindness is not actually leading them to repentance which Paul said that it is. No one is capable of repentance without grace. The only way God’s kindness can lead anyone to repentance is thru grace. So either His kindness is leading them to repentance thru His grace or His kindness is not leading them to repentance at all.
 
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Kermos

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I challenge you to prove your claim here. How is a decision or choice any kind of "work"? Especially in the biblical sense. Thanks.


This seems about as confused as what 5th kingdom posts.


If you would consider the context, the crowd asked Jesus what work was required to earn eternal life (v.27). Jesus used their own word in a "tongue-in-cheek" response by saying, "the work God requires is to believe in His Son".

Both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 clearly reject that faith or believing is a work.


Please read Rom 10:10. "Man believes from the hearrt". It doesn't say "man believes when God causes him to believe from the heart".

Scripture never indicates that God created man with the ability to make a "choice" or "decision" toward God for eternal salvation, and this is what I refer to as free will.

Since concrete free will does not exist in scripture, your foundation of free will is shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-27).

You arrogantly dispose of the Word of God by calling His words a "tongue-in-cheek" response!

Lord Jesus means precisely that which He says with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, faith/belief is the work of God; moreover, faith/belief is a work, yet not a work of man, but a work of God. Faith/belief is not a thing steered by a free will choice of man because that would be a work. Lord Jesus says believing in Christ whom God has sent is the work of God!

Paul wrote "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:4-5), and there is no free will therein; in fact, the very "believes" and very "faith" mentioned is a gift/work of god (john 6:29, ephesians 2:8-10).

Paul also wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work" (Ephesians 2:8-10), and there is no free will therein; in fact, the very "faith" mentioned is a gift/work of God (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10).

Regarding the "heart" in Romans 10:10, it is written "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:26), so the new creation gets a new heart (2 Corinthians 5:17). God causes a person to believe, so any claim otherwise opposes the Word of God Who says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8).

Free-will "choice" qualifies as a work of the creature since the person claims to manipulate faith/belief, and it disqualifies said creature from being a believer in Him Who says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); furthermore, there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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bling

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Scripture never indicates that God created man with the ability to make a "choice" or "decision" toward God for eternal salvation, and this is what I refer to as free will.
That is not a definition of “free will”.

The “choice” to Love God comes way after God has showered the individual with: eternal life, Love, a wonderful purpose in life, the indwelling Holy Spirit and a new family.

We are talking about the God given ability of the selfish sinner to make some very limited autonomous free will choice, that will allow them to humbly accept undeserving Godly type Love.


Since concrete free will does not exist in scripture, your foundation of free will is shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-27).
There are lots of God given commands, sermons with requests, teachings and directions being given with some being accepted and followed and others not being directed and followed, these would appear to be choices.

Look at your Matt. 7:21-27 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The doing or not doing is either up to the individual or it is up to God, but if the individual is not doing because God did not provide him with whatever the doer had, then it is God’s fault he/she did not do.




Lord Jesus means precisely that which He says with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, faith/belief is the work of God; moreover, faith/belief is a work, yet not a work of man, but a work of God. Faith/belief is not a thing steered by a free will choice of man because that would be a work. Lord Jesus says believing in Christ whom God has sent is the work of God!
Jesus was specifically asked by people wanting to know what they personally were to be doing and Christ tells the to “believe”. God does not have to “believe” anything since God knows. The context of John 6:29 is in no way talking about what God is to be doing.


Paul wrote "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:4-5), and there is no free will therein; in fact, the very "believes" and very "faith" mentioned is a gift/work of god (john 6:29, ephesians 2:8-10).

Paul also wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work" (Ephesians 2:8-10), and there is no free will therein; in fact, the very "faith" mentioned is a gift/work of God (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10).
People use Eph 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” to show “faith” is a gift and forget about verse 9 which says: “not by works, so that no one can boast.” The gift cannot be grammatical correct and be “faith”, but you do not have to know Greek, just look at verse 9. If “faith” were the gift then Paul is telling us faith cannot be worked for and earned which is not logical or discussed as even an option anywhere else. How would people go about working to obtain faith anyway (it is to quit working, trying to do it yourself and start trusting). The “gift” in Eph. 2:8 is the whole salvation process which Paul talks about in other places, showing people trying to earn salvation.


I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:


And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.



Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8 , ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)


Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8 , kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)


Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8 ), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)



"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.


This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).


You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.


I do agree “natural faith” which all mature adults have is a gift from God and, as we know from scripture: people do place natural faith in lots of things and people even worshipping rocks and wood.


The question that needs to be asked: can this God given natural faith be directed toward the Creator, just to believe in the possibility of God’s existence? Since it takes more faith and really foolishness to believe a god does not exist.


You also need to remember the Greek word translated “Faith” in the English is also translated faithfulness. I would say one of the gifts of the Spirit is faithfulness and not faith itself.



You also seem to be assuming that if the nonbelieving sinner has just some kind of “faith”, he will make the noble, honorable, worthy, righteous and holy choice to follow God, but that type of “faith” comes much later and is part of the unbelievable wonderful gifts God showers on the sinner.


The “faith/trust”, autonomous free will choice the sinner makes is between: being macho, hanging in there, being a good soldier, and being willing to take the punishment you fully deserve or wimping out, giving up and surrendering to your enemy. Like any soldier who surrenders to his enemy, you hate your enemy, but are just willing to humbly accept undeserving charity from your enemy. That little questionable “trust” in the possibility of your enemy having an unbelievable Love that could help you is all the faith you need.


What do you consider to be man’s objective while here on earth, since the Bible has lots of “commands” to follow and any scripture given command has scriptural support for being “man’s objective”?


Regarding the "heart" in Romans 10:10, it is written "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:26), so the new creation gets a new heart (2 Corinthians 5:17). God causes a person to believe, so any claim otherwise opposes the Word of God Who says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8).
This “New Heart” comes after the sinner’s autonomous free will choice.


Free-will "choice" qualifies as a work of the creature since the person claims to manipulate faith/belief, and it disqualifies said creature from being a believer in Him Who says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); furthermore, there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
God and the Bible really define “work” and by specifically telling us: “we cannot work on the Sabbath” and providing what can be done on the Sabbath tells us what can be done on the Sabbath is not “work”.
 
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Kermos

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Of course "choosing" or "electing" CERTAIN people to be part
of "His Sheep" based only on God's Good Pleasure PROVES
those people were predestined for salvation AND service.


This fact is made crystal clear in MANY different Scriptures...
besides the CONTEXT of the Gospel of the Bible that salvation
of the "elect" from EVERY Saint in the Pre-Flood Kingdom and
EVERY "elect" in the Jewish Kingdom and EVERY "elect" in the Christian Kingdom and EVERY one of the "wise virgins" of the
Great Tribulation Kingdom.... was the purpose of the Atonement.



Jesus came to save "His People" from their sins...
and that included EACH of "His Sheep", EACH of the "elect"
throughout the history of man. Not a single "elect" is lost.





When Jesus clearly explains that some men were NEVER MEANT
to be saved... you can not describe that as a "free offer" to every
man ever born. At least you cannot HONESTLY say that.


First Jesus explained that SOME MEN were NEVER MEANT to
"perceive" or "understand" LEST AT ANY TIME they could
"be converted" and their "sins forgiven". If Jesus was NOT
lying... every man who was NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or have their "sins forgiven"... did not have this "free offer"
that so many insist on teaching.


Obviously, when SOME MEN were NEVER MEANT to be converted
or have their sins forgiven... it is ridiculous to pretend the Gospel
is a "free offer" to all men. But few can accept this reality because
it immediately DESTROYS their "gospel"... and they cannot submit
to what the Bible says.


But this, besides being the Gospel of the Bible, is also confirmed
as HISTORICAL FACT. There were probably a MILLION people in
the Pre-Flood Kingdom who were NEVER MEANT to be saved, at
the end of that Kingdom only eight (8) souls were meant to be
saved. In the Jewish Kingdom MANY Jews were NEVER MEANT
to be saved.... and almost 100% of Gentiles were NEVER MEANT
to be saved.... during the Christian Kingdom MOST of the church
consisted of unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and, as the "children
of Satan
" they were destined to the same Fire prepared for Satan.
It is nothing less than FOOLISHNESS to pretend they were MEANT
to be saved... moreover, there were BILLIONS of people OUTSIDE
the church, clearly all of them were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
(Assuming you believe Jesus was NOT LYING when He promised
that, of ALL MEN the Father gives Him, He will lose NONE of them)


The Gospel of the Bible clearly teaches that (1) God "elects"
who He will saved and (2) ALL MEN "elected" shall be saved,
Christ will lose NONE of them and (3) some men... in fact, the
vast majority of mankind was NEVER MEANT to be saved since
they were NOT "elected" and NOT able to be "converted" or to
have their "sins forgiven"


For someone to preach the Gospel is a "free offer" to all men
KNOWING that Jesus PROMISED some men were NEVER MEANT
to be converted or have their sins forgiven... is willful contradiction
of the Words of Christ (and denial of actual the historical reality).


The TRUE GOSPEL of the Bible (the narrow way to eternal life)
is the monergistic gospel that God "chose" or "elected" EVERY
person MEANT TO BE SAVED from Adam to the last "wise virgin"
and ALL OF THEM would be saved, since Jesus will lose NONE
of those the Father gave them.


The ONLY way someone can preach the Gospel is a "free offer"
to all men is to say Jesus was LYING when HE PROMISED that
some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or to have
their "sins forgiven". Yet that is the (false) gospel preached
by 98% of the churches today... which it why it is clearly the
BROAD WAY that leads Christians into destruction by teaching
a synergistic gospel where God is NOT SOVEREIGN and man
gets to decide who is "His Sheep"... by doing some good "work".
(yes, making a DECISION to "believe" is a mental WORK...
many men earn a living "working" by only making decisions)


Bottom Line:
You cannot take someone seriously when they teach the Gospel
is a "free offer" when (a) God alone "chose" or "elected" all those
who would be "His Sheep" and (b) Christ PROMISED some men
were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or have their "sins forgiven". And (c) almost 100% of the Gentiles OUTSIDE of the
Jewish Kingdom were NEVER MEANT to be saved and all those
OUTSIDE the Christian church were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


To preach a "gospel" about a "free offer" KNOWING THESE FACTS
is to be intentionally dishonest and/or to willfully contradict the
(true) Gospel of the Bible.


Jim
Praise God! So well explained. I believe there is a difference between "church" and the "assembly".

Proclaiming the gospel to everyone is in accord with the Word, yet a child of God, an ambassador of the Kingdom of God, knows that God, the King, must enliven a person to hear the good news and be saved and produce fruit of the Spirit.

I would like to write again that is was a blessing to read your post!!!

I leave the next paragraph as encouragement for those who understand that God is sovereign in the salvation of people (monergism), and I leave it as proclamation of Truth (John 14:6) to those deceived in the evil of claiming God is incapable of saving all that God desires to be saved because man must work a "choice" before God can save (synergistm).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Kermos

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There is no doubt that Jesus' answer was "tongue-in-cheek", given that the works oriented Jews thought there was work they had to do to enter heaven.

A bit of sarcasm. What Jesus was saying was that God requires people to believe in His Son in order to go to heaven.

Both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 completely destroy the nonsense that believing is a work.

Grace (believing) and works are antithetical.

Rom 11:6 - And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Eph 2:8 says we are saved by GRACE. Rom 11:6 says salvation cannot be based on works.

Any questions?

Please see my previous post to you. The post presents the Truth (John 14:6), including proper exposition of Romans 4:4-5 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Now, you included Romans 11:6. Salvation is not based a work of man. Be clear on that.

Salvation is the work of God, for so says the Word of God with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Clearly, Jesus disposes with the notion that man works unto salvation, since the people asked how to work the works of God.

Clearly, Jesus declares that a person believing in the Word whom the Father has sent is the work of God.

In this, Jesus declares Who God is, including being the exclusive controller of man's salvation.*

"I will raise up a Prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him" (Deuteronomy 18:18) are the words of God to Moses about the Christ.

Your "tongue-in-cheek" assertion reveals your heart's treasure, your thinking that you control God by your "choice" forcing God to save you - your treasure is that you think God must comply with your work of control over God, yet there is NO scriptural support for your assertion.

Your "tongue-in-cheek" assertion opposes that believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is a work of God (John 6:29), so you attempt SUBTRACTION from the Word of God.**

*You try to say that God is not Who God says God is, so that is you rejecting God; furthermore, **you do not receive the God's Word because you pridefully try to subract from the Word of God. The Word says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).
 
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Kermos

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My previous post remains valid and true, and there is more in this post, so please see below.

I said:
"Please read Rom 10:10. "Man believes from the hearrt". It doesn't say "man believes when God causes him to believe from the heart".

Right. When an unbeliever believes in his heart, THEN God gives him a new heart. It's called regeneration.


Man's unregenerated heart.

The Word of God requires that a person be born again TO EVEN SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD (John 3:3-8); therefore, an unregenerate heart CAN NOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD. An unregenerate heart cannot believe in God without the work of God in such a person (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-9).

A born again person gets the new heart. This is the new creation by God.

An unregenerate heart does not understand the Trugh of the matter (John 14:6), so the unregenerate heart claims to choose Jesus which is the very opposite of the Word of God declaration "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

None of your overly dramatic wordings makes a bit of difference. The Bible is clear.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions??it is by grace you have been saved.

The blue words define the red words. The red words refer to regeneration. The blue words speak of salvation.

In this verse, regeneration and salvation are equated. iow, they go together. You cannot have one without the other.

There is no such thing as being regenerated as an unbeliever. Or being a believer without being regenerated.

But you try to make the unbeliever - the person with an unregenerate heart - a believer (see your first three paragaphs of your post). You wrote "unbeliever believes in his heart", so it is right there in your mind you have an unbeliever believing. That's not scripture, that's your believing deception.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith??and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God??

The red words prove that faith precedes salvation. You can't be saved THROUGH faith unless there IS faith.

So, from v.5 we understand that both salvation AND regeneration are THROUGH faith.

The Word of God declares that faith/belief are the work of God with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), and it is very clear these words of Lord Jesus are very distasteful to you.

The gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8) is given by God (Ephesians 2:8). Paul is in accord with the words of Jesus "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Where in the Bible? You've been pretty short on evidence for all your notions.

Eze 36:26 doesn't say what you claim.


I've just shown you what Biblcal theology 101 SAYS. Why don't you believe it?

You have no excuse for your unbiblical ideas. You've been shown over and over.

Again, my previous post and this post Biblically exposits Ezekiel 36:26.

Christ alone saves from the wrath of God, and man is impotent - so impotent that man cannot choose Jesus.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Kermos

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None of these verses say that election/choice is for salvation. That is merely an assumption or presumption. Jesus also told Judas that He had chosen him in John 6:70,71, and Judas never believed.


Rather, you have terribly misunderstood the Word of God.

Election is FOR service, not salvation. I can prove it from the Bible. Here are all the examples of those who are identified as being elected:

Examples of Election

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.

1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him??

5. Other elections:

Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

Now, your challenge is to prove that Jesus Christ was chosen or elected for salvation, that the entire nation of Israel was chosen for salvation, and that angels were chosen for salvation.

As to NT believers, Eph 1:4 says nothing about salvation, but rather the purpose of election is "that you should be holy and blameless". This is about service, not salvation. In fact, the "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".

So, Eph 1:4 is about believers having been chosen/elected for service.


There is nothing in your opening paragraph that proves your thesis. My examples prove that your view is unbiblical.


Well, you seem to know how to CONFLATE verses, for sure.

Here's the evidence that you are unaware of:
Matt 28-
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, ??All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.??

Acts 1-
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

v.15 tells us that the entire group of believers was about 120 when Jesus ascended to heaven. And He didn't address any of them. Just 11 men.

Jesus chose apostles. That does NOT include the "70".


Prove that they were with Jesus when He gave the 11 apostles the Great Commission, and the 70 were apostleized.


I just proved it. There is NO mention of the GC in the NT. If you think there is, then provide your evidence.


Yet, you don't understand what election is FOR.


Nope. Jesus was preparing His apostles to "make disciples" and then to "teach them all I have commanded you".

Jesus was preparing His apostles for evangelizing the known world.


True, and false.

The Word of God is clear, indeed. What I reject isn't the Word of God, but your ideas.


Just go through the examples of election above and tell me that Jesus Christ was chosen for salvation, that the entire nation of Israel was chosen for salvation, and that angels were chosen for salvation.

btw, the Bible says NOTHING about angels being saved at all. There is no evidence at all about angels even being offered salvation.

But if you have some evidence, please provide.

When Jesus said "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?" as recorded (John 6:70), then scripture must be taken with scripture.

Jesus did not specify that all twelve were chosen to salvation in John 6:70. In fact, Jesus said one is a devil speaking of Judas (John 6:71).

Lord Jesus declares that He chooses to use a person is up to Him.

When Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), then He is speaking of salvation. Your very first sentence in your very first paragraph is deceptive.

Since Jesus says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), then He is speaking to the fact that people cannot choose Him unto salvation, and for the creature to claim that the creature can do the opposite of that which the Creator states the creature can not do - then the creature is in a state of disbelief.

In such a state of disbelief, the creature cannot even see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3-8).
 
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Kermos

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Continuing on from my previous post in response to your post of:

None of these verses say that election/choice is for salvation. That is merely an assumption or presumption. Jesus also told Judas that He had chosen him in John 6:70,71, and Judas never believed.


Rather, you have terribly misunderstood the Word of God.

Election is FOR service, not salvation. I can prove it from the Bible. Here are all the examples of those who are identified as being elected:

Examples of Election

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.

1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him??

5. Other elections:

Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

Now, your challenge is to prove that Jesus Christ was chosen or elected for salvation, that the entire nation of Israel was chosen for salvation, and that angels were chosen for salvation.

As to NT believers, Eph 1:4 says nothing about salvation, but rather the purpose of election is "that you should be holy and blameless". This is about service, not salvation. In fact, the "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".

So, Eph 1:4 is about believers having been chosen/elected for service.


There is nothing in your opening paragraph that proves your thesis. My examples prove that your view is unbiblical.


Well, you seem to know how to CONFLATE verses, for sure.

Here's the evidence that you are unaware of:
Matt 28-
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, ??All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.??

Acts 1-
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

v.15 tells us that the entire group of believers was about 120 when Jesus ascended to heaven. And He didn't address any of them. Just 11 men.

Jesus chose apostles. That does NOT include the "70".


Prove that they were with Jesus when He gave the 11 apostles the Great Commission, and the 70 were apostleized.


I just proved it. There is NO mention of the GC in the NT. If you think there is, then provide your evidence.


Yet, you don't understand what election is FOR.


Nope. Jesus was preparing His apostles to "make disciples" and then to "teach them all I have commanded you".

Jesus was preparing His apostles for evangelizing the known world.


True, and false.

The Word of God is clear, indeed. What I reject isn't the Word of God, but your ideas.


Just go through the examples of election above and tell me that Jesus Christ was chosen for salvation, that the entire nation of Israel was chosen for salvation, and that angels were chosen for salvation.

btw, the Bible says NOTHING about angels being saved at all. There is no evidence at all about angels even being offered salvation.

But if you have some evidence, please provide.

The Apostle Paul clearly refers to being chose unto salvation with "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him
" (Ephesians 1:3-4).

Paul did not mention the word "ministry" in the passage. Ministry means service, so the words minsitry and service are synonyms. The passage is absent the word ministry.

The word "holy", that Paul used, means set apart. As in the greetings of Paul's other letters, Paul is identifying persons set apart from the eternal punishment of God's wrath; in other words, clean persons saved from the wrath of God (salvation), and blessed by God persons chosen by God for eternal life to be with Christ forever (John 3:36)!

Paul's word usage of "blameless" means without blame which further in context means persons having no blame for sin thus being saved from the wrath of God (salvation), and this blessed choosing is by God for persons' salvation in Christ identified before the foundation of the world!

Your claim that God's choice mentioned in Ephesians 1:3-4 is restricted exclusively to ministry is absent from reality just as the word ministry is absent from Ephesians 1:3-4.

Since your claim was just considered, here is more about the claims of certain individuals.

Persons who claim to choose Jesus, such persons claim to do a work of a choice unto salvation, such persons attempt to steal the glory of man's salvation from God.

Self-willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) deceive by saying God is not Who God says God is because man claims an unholy and blameful choice toward Jesus, yer the Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 regarding salvation) to all His disciples in all time. Behold how the self-willed person rejects the Word of God which carries a deadly punishment (John 12:48).

Ephesians 1:3-4 is Paul's greeting about God's blessed choosing of persons unto salvation.

The glory of man's salvation is God's alone (John 15:16, John 15:19, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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Continuing on from my previous post in response to your post of:

None of these verses say that election/choice is for salvation. That is merely an assumption or presumption. Jesus also told Judas that He had chosen him in John 6:70,71, and Judas never believed.


Rather, you have terribly misunderstood the Word of God.

Election is FOR service, not salvation. I can prove it from the Bible. Here are all the examples of those who are identified as being elected:

Examples of Election

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.

1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him??

5. Other elections:

Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

Now, your challenge is to prove that Jesus Christ was chosen or elected for salvation, that the entire nation of Israel was chosen for salvation, and that angels were chosen for salvation.

As to NT believers, Eph 1:4 says nothing about salvation, but rather the purpose of election is "that you should be holy and blameless". This is about service, not salvation. In fact, the "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".

So, Eph 1:4 is about believers having been chosen/elected for service.


There is nothing in your opening paragraph that proves your thesis. My examples prove that your view is unbiblical.


Well, you seem to know how to CONFLATE verses, for sure.

Here's the evidence that you are unaware of:
Matt 28-
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, ??All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.??

Acts 1-
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

v.15 tells us that the entire group of believers was about 120 when Jesus ascended to heaven. And He didn't address any of them. Just 11 men.

Jesus chose apostles. That does NOT include the "70".


Prove that they were with Jesus when He gave the 11 apostles the Great Commission, and the 70 were apostleized.


I just proved it. There is NO mention of the GC in the NT. If you think there is, then provide your evidence.


Yet, you don't understand what election is FOR.


Nope. Jesus was preparing His apostles to "make disciples" and then to "teach them all I have commanded you".

Jesus was preparing His apostles for evangelizing the known world.


True, and false.

The Word of God is clear, indeed. What I reject isn't the Word of God, but your ideas.


Just go through the examples of election above and tell me that Jesus Christ was chosen for salvation, that the entire nation of Israel was chosen for salvation, and that angels were chosen for salvation.

btw, the Bible says NOTHING about angels being saved at all. There is no evidence at all about angels even being offered salvation.

But if you have some evidence, please provide.

Neither the Apostle Matthew (Matthew 28:16) nor Luke (Acts 1:2) state that the 11 apostles were the only ones present.

In fact, Luke recorded "And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven" (Luke 24:50-51).

The "them" in this passage from Luke refers to Mary and Joanna and Cleopas and the person traveling with Cleopas on the road to Emmaus as well as the other disciples and the 11 (Luke 24:1-36).

These Biblical facts results in more disciples in attendance than the 11 apostles during Jesus Christ's command "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:18-20) and His ascension (Luke 24:45-53) (Acts 1:1-2).

The Apostle Peter puts the disciples Joseph and Matthias with the 11 Apostles when Jesus spoke those words and ascended to heaven when Peter said "accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us" (Acts 1:21-23 but more context Acts 1:12-23).

Luke recorded a much earlier event, that is, when Jesus chose the apostles. Luke wrote "And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles" (Luke 6:13). Luke shows there were more disciples than the 12.

Barnabas was identified as an apostle by Luke (Acts 14:14), Paul was an apostle, and Barnabas was a believer before Paul (Acts 4:36, Acts 9:27). Behold more apostles than the 11.

With regard to the 70, Luke wrote that Jesus apesteilen (apostello/sent Strong's 649) the seventy (Luke 10:1).

FreeGrace2, you are repeating your self willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) unbiblical teaching in which you attempt to limit the number of disciples to 11 at various events and about various sayings of Lord Jesus Christ.

Joseph and Matthias were present when Jesus spoke the above (Matthew 28:18-20) and He ascended. That's more than the 11.

Cleopas and the person traveling with Cleopas on the road to Emmaus were present when Jesus gave commands and He ascended to Heaven. That's more than the 11.
 
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Brightfame52

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freegrace2
None of these verses say that election/choice is for salvation.

What about this one 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
 
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Kermos

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Get real. Of course no human being chooses God for service. But God does choose humans for service.

Why don't you address the examples I've given that PROVE that election is to service.

In EVERY case or example, the choosing was for service. In NONE of the examples was the choosing for salvation.

And you have not provided ANY verses that say clearly that anyone was chosen for salvation. In ALL the verses you have quoted, nothing is said about the purpose for the election.

You are just PRESUMING that the purpose is for salvation. You have no evidence at all.


Just presumption. Pure and simple.


The Word of God says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), but you attempt to alter the words to "you did not choose service for Me" or some such. Jesus used no qualifier. Jesus provided no exemption. Lord Jesus say "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), and in the same passage He says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) thus incorporating salvation as exclusively God's choice.

Free-willians make the criminal jump to "I can choose Jesus", but such a free-willian claim rejects the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says Who He is. Free-willians claim that Jesus is less than Jesus says He is in their self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to the non-existant work of man's supposed choice, specifically their claim of choosing King Jesus, His Majesty.
 
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bling

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The Word of God says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), but you attempt to alter the words to "you did not choose service for Me" or some such. Jesus used no qualifier. Jesus provided no exemption. Lord Jesus say "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), and in the same passage He says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) thus incorporating salvation as exclusively God's choice.

Free-willians make the criminal jump to "I can choose Jesus", but such a free-willian claim rejects the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says Who He is. Free-willians claim that Jesus is less than Jesus says He is in their self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to the non-existant work of man's supposed choice, specifically their claim of choosing King Jesus, His Majesty.
In John 15 Jesus is talking about His disciples (the 11 at that time) and not all believers. The 12 were definitely chosen by Jesus and the 12 were brought out of the world, but being brought out of the world does not mean they were slected to be the saved and could not chose of their own free will to pursue worldly desires like Judas did.
 
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OK, please quote the VERY BEST and CLEAREST verse that says that salvation is by election.

If you can't, you have no point.

There are many, but here is just one that states salvation is by God's choice.

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Here is another which eliminates man's decision from the matter of salvation:

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

And here is antother that shows that belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God not the work of man

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

Every single one of those quotations are the Word of God Himself speaking!
 
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