Is there a logical reason God allowed Satan to have authority?

pittsburghjoe · Jan 25, 2021

We know God gave us authority of the earth ..then Satan got it somehow. I'm not seeing a reason for God to hand it to him.

Jesse Dornfeld · Jan 25, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
In the 12th chapter of the Apocalypse we read about the "war in heaven" between St. Michael the archangel and "the dragon", many interpret the dragon sweeping "down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth" as figuratively speaking of 1/3 of the angels abandoning God and following the devil in his fall.

Is that the meaning of the text? It's difficult to say, seeing as we are dealing with the most hard to understand book in the entire Bible; and just about any interpretation of any part of it is fraught with debate and disagreement.

-CryptoLutheran

That may be so, but I am assuming the OP is getting a lot of info from the books of Enoch, which are not strictly Biblical.

Jesse Dornfeld · Jan 25, 2021

Paul4JC said:
So what does Eph 6:12 mean to you?

I think Satan's realm is in the Spiritual, but it is still on earth where he has his power.

ViaCrucis · Jan 25, 2021

Religiot said:
Who told you that?

Thousands of years of it being called wisdom literature.

In the LXX it was placed within the section of sapiential (wisdom) books, which is the reason Job is placed where it is in modern Christian Bibles: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Wisdom, and Sirach are all part of this grouping of books. They are also sometimes called the "poetic books". These are the books of wisdom and poetry, in contrast to the books of the prophets, or the historical books, or the Torah.

Internally, the book is very clearly a work of wisdom, because its central theme is philosophical: the problem of pain and evil. The book is asking, and seeking to address, the philosophical issue of theodicy: why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? But it is Jewish wisdom, not Greek, so the way it goes about doing this isn't the way the Greek philosophical tradition would; instead as is common in the Jewish wisdom tradition the height of wisdom is faith and reverence to God. Which is why God answers Job not by providing some lengthy treatise providing a rational explanation for the problem of pain; but instead God declares to Job that Job was not there when God made the world, who is Job but a man, what business does a mere mortal man have in challenging God? Ultimately justice prevails and Job is restored, his faith strengthened by the experience.

-CryptoLutheran

Sheila Davis · Jan 25, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:
Satan has authority because he is going to fight to keep disorder/sin from getting back into heaven. His pride wants every person possible.

In a study I've done on the Jewish beliefs on the one we call Satan, and they recognized the term Satan as the group of Angelic beings not a single one. In a nut shell, they feel the purpose of him is to tempt men in all ways God will allow - to see who is worthy and who isn't. That he is working personally for God. As I have been taught and believe in Christianity he was a cherubim that covereth, and as was taught a few decades ago an archangel, until his fallen state. He tried to tempt Jesus with lordship and riches on earth, he is the prince of this world who has been judged - John 16:11 _ he is the god of this world who has blinded the eyes of those who don't believe - 2nd Corinthians 4:4. Scripture says that we are dealing with principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places. Authority is the wrong word, he has been given the approval to do certain things, to temporarily do what he is allowed, until judgement is rendered upon all the Fallen. He is considered God and Prince of this world because man does the same works of Rebellion as he has led - instead of the works of God the Father & Son.

Mark Quayle · Jan 25, 2021

Religiot said:
Well, you did answer in your previous post, thus I can now reply.

I don't at all say that you must accept my worldview before debate, that would contradict my reason for debating.

What I mean to convey, is that some worldviews are so far from mine, that I would have to travel philosophical distances too great for my abilities, thus knowing my limitations, I avoid questions and conversations that I do not believe I can participate in, fruitfully.

Concerning Hebrews:

"Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." --Hebrews 2:7-8

All things are not yet put under Him.

That is all I mean to say concerning this: Christ has all power, and waits at the right hand of God, til He is sent, to subjugate everyone and everything, that is against God: this hasn't happened yet.

You say above: "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." --Hebrews 2:7-8

All things are not yet put under Him."

Amazing. It is staring you right in the face: It plainly says all things are put in subjection under him. Then it says that we do see yet all things put under him and to you that means the words of the sentence preceding it are wrong? You would have our sight to be of more weight, more validity, than God's Word saying that he has put all things under his feet?

All things are under him, but WE do not yet see it that way.

Mark Quayle · Jan 25, 2021

Religiot said:
Well, you did answer in your previous post, thus I can now reply.

I don't at all say that you must accept my worldview before debate, that would contradict my reason for debating.

What I mean to convey, is that some worldviews are so far from mine, that I would have to travel philosophical distances too great for my abilities, thus knowing my limitations, I avoid questions and conversations that I do not believe I can participate in, fruitfully.

Concerning Hebrews:

"Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." --Hebrews 2:7-8

All things are not yet put under Him.

That is all I mean to say concerning this: Christ has all power, and waits at the right hand of God, til He is sent, to subjugate everyone and everything, that is against God: this hasn't happened yet.

This is what I'm talking about by your worldview. You would (it seems) have this big drama where God just barely wins over Satan, and as long as we don't see how God is victorious he isn't. But according to Hebrews God is already victorious. All things are already in subjection to him.

Edit: I just read the rules and see unorthodox theology, which specifically includes one I referenced in what I am now deleting, is not to be discussed. I meant it as an example to show some of your kind of thinking, but, oh well.

Paul4JC · Jan 25, 2021

Agallagher said:
God never tempts anyone. Our thoughts and desires that come from our flesh when we are enticed by temptations do.

If you are a believer why would you worry about satan anymore anyway?

Would Jesus defeat Satan? May Jesus is to weak to do that for believers in their life, so when they are enticed by their desires they can always have some else to blame rather than looking in the mirror.

You don't worry but you don't ignore him either. None of us have "arrived" yet. We have our ups and downs.

[1Pe 5:8-9 NIV]Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

Paul4JC · Jan 25, 2021

True Counterphobia said:
That may be so, but I am assuming the OP is getting a lot of info from the books of Enoch, which are not strictly Biblical.

No doesn't seem to be from 1 Enoch which is a very useful book. He is a bit unclear though as to what he's saying.

Jesse Dornfeld · Jan 25, 2021

Paul4JC said:
He is a bit unclear though as to what he's saying.

He seems to be pushing something, but is doing it by asking questions instead of being direct.

pittsburghjoe · Jan 25, 2021

"John Wheeler proposed one solution, that the universe was only a quantum wave until humans came along to interact with it and cause the collapse backwards in time. Hawking wrote that history happens backwards in time rather than forwards." - Andy Fletcher

Original Sin started this physical fallen reality.

Satan was here before us. I think this has something to do with why he has our authority.

Paul4JC · Jan 25, 2021

True Counterphobia said:
I think Satan's realm is in the Spiritual, but it is still on earth where he has his power.

That verse points to layers of power, "...spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" so it's like an army of evil. Thank God we have a greater army on our side. We don't know exactly how many "realms" their are. Paul was caught up to the 3rd heaven.
[2Co 12:2a NIV] I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.

[Eph 2:2 NASB] 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

[1Jo 4:4 NASB] 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

Jesse Dornfeld · Jan 25, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:
"John Wheeler proposed one solution, that the universe was only a quantum wave until humans came along to interact with it and cause the collapse backwards in time. Hawking wrote that history happens backwards in time rather than forwards." - Andy Fletcher

Original Sin started this physical fallen reality.

Satan was here before us. I think this has something to do with why he has our authority.

I don't think it is good to get your theology from Atheists.

pittsburghjoe · Jan 25, 2021

True Counterphobia said:
I don't think it is good to get your theology from Atheists.

The irony of proving there is a God with what they did eludes you?

Jesse Dornfeld · Jan 25, 2021

Paul4JC said:
That verse points to layers of power,

I agree. I think calling Jesus Lord actually means he has the MOST authority to decide [fate]. That is how I read the word Lord (κύριος; kurios, kuriou). I see it as Hierarchical, just in a way that doesn't really make sense to us. For example, Jesus often talked about being a servant, which MAKES him have the most authority. The first shall be last and the last shall be first, in other words. That's why I think people like Mother Teresa are getting HUGE rewards in heaven.

Jesse Dornfeld · Jan 25, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:
The irony of proving there is a God with what they did eludes you?

I think your perspective here is misguided. I don't think you can reverse engineer this the way you did.

Paul4JC · Jan 25, 2021

True Counterphobia said:
I agree. I think calling Jesus Lord actually means he has the MOST authority to decide [fate]. That is how I read the word Lord (κύριος; kurios, kuriou). I see it as Hierarchical, just in a way that doesn't really make sense to us. For example, Jesus often talked about being a servant, which MAKES him have the most authority. The first shall be last and the last shall be first, in other words. That's why I think people like Mother Teresa are getting HUGE rewards in heaven.

Sure Christ Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. He only expects from us what is given. Some have more and some have less. He will reward us accordingly as told in parable of the talents.

There will be a great reversal. Satan will be last, along with all the fallen angels and demons.

Religiot · Jan 25, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
Thousands of years of it being called wisdom literature.

In the LXX it was placed within the section of sapiential (wisdom) books, which is the reason Job is placed where it is in modern Christian Bibles: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Wisdom, and Sirach are all part of this grouping of books. They are also sometimes called the "poetic books". These are the books of wisdom and poetry, in contrast to the books of the prophets, or the historical books, or the Torah.

Internally, the book is very clearly a work of wisdom, because its central theme is philosophical: the problem of pain and evil. The book is asking, and seeking to address, the philosophical issue of theodicy: why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? But it is Jewish wisdom, not Greek, so the way it goes about doing this isn't the way the Greek philosophical tradition would; instead as is common in the Jewish wisdom tradition the height of wisdom is faith and reverence to God. Which is why God answers Job not by providing some lengthy treatise providing a rational explanation for the problem of pain; but instead God declares to Job that Job was not there when God made the world, who is Job but a man, what business does a mere mortal man have in challenging God? Ultimately justice prevails and Job is restored, his faith strengthened by the experience.

-CryptoLutheran

The Jews have referred to the New Testament as fraud, for over two thousand years: just because an allegation or claim is ancient, does not, in anyway, prove it's validity.

Moreover, what you've said about the book's content in no way establishes it as non-historical: your conclusions about it's nature, are merely conjectures.

The Rabbis of Christ's time conjectured about what the prophets said about the Lord, concluding that His actual sufferings were a metaphor, and in no way literal.

If the book of Job were merely a lengthy allegory, then it would not be any revelation of the nature of God, nor of another man of great faith.

To me, and others like me, the book of Job is obviously a true historical account of the experience Job had with God, and how he, very much like Abraham, had unwavering faith.

I hope you reconsider the meaning of Job, in light of it being a true event in time.

Thanks for your response.

Religiot · Jan 25, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
You say above: "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." --Hebrews 2:7-8

All things are not yet put under Him."

Amazing. It is staring you right in the face: It plainly says all things are put in subjection under him. Then it says that we do see yet all things put under him and to you that means the words of the sentence preceding it are wrong? You would have our sight to be of more weight, more validity, than God's Word saying that he has put all things under his feet?

All things are under him, but WE do not yet see it that way.

He is the rightful Heir, that is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the conflation between being authorized and execution of authority.

Christ allows for the evil now, until His Father commands for Him to end it; only then shall Christ return the second time, to subjugate all His enemies and to glorify all His friends.

Otherwise, the following would be false, and your interpretation of the above, correct:

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." --Hebrews 10:12-13

Religiot · Jan 25, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
This is what I'm talking about by your worldview. You would (it seems) have this big drama where God just barely wins over Satan, and as long as we don't see how God is victorious he isn't. But according to Hebrews God is already victorious. All things are already in subjection to him.

Edit: I just read the rules and see unorthodox theology, which specifically includes one I referenced in what I am now deleting, is not to be discussed. I meant it as an example to show some of your kind of thinking, but, oh well.

Okay, well, unfortunately I can't speak to that, but I have responded to your previous post.

Is there a logical reason God allowed Satan to have authority?

Active Member

Slave to Christ

Slave to Christ

Confessional Lutheran

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing

Slave to Christ

Active Member

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing

Slave to Christ

Active Member

Slave to Christ

Slave to Christ

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads