National Rifle Association Files for Bankruptcy

Joyous Song said:

I know and in America they are the source of most but not all gun violence. This is proven by NY where gun legislation is much more restrictive and yet their cities suffer gun violence because of they can stop stolen guns from crossing into the state.

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I think one good idea would be to mandate that all guns need to be in secure safes at all time they are not in use. That would greatly limit the number of stolen guns, as well as all those incidents of children playing with their parents guns and shooting their playmates.

Nithavela said:

Most of those illegal guns come into circulation after they are stolen from legal gun owners during burglaries or similiar crimes.

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Or after they are "stolen" from legal gun owners. But here is a money-making opportunity for private enterprise: Anything I own which presents a potential danger to the public I have to have liability insurance for--a car, a boat, an airplane, even a steam boiler. Unsafe possession results in higher premiums and thus is effectively regulated without the government intervention which 2nd Amendment buffs deplore. It should be the same with guns.

Nithavela said:

I think one good idea would be to mandate that all guns need to be in secure safes at all time they are not in use. That would greatly limit the number of stolen guns, as well as all those incidents of children playing with their parents guns and shooting their playmates.

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True except in the country, those incidents are far fewer, in fact I never heard of a kid out here getting shot by using their dads rifle. O could be because our guns tend to be big. Its also likely that young kids go hunting with dad and learn about guns and gun safety at a young age. We did.

Still the refile was kept high and out of reach as well. Not many out here get their guns stolen. Sawed off shot guns can work but most violence is hand guns.

Joyous Song said:

True except in the country, those incidents are far fewer, in fact I never heard of a kid out here getting shot by using their dads rifle.

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Most of those incidents happen with handguns, often kept loaded and easily accessible because of them being meant to be used in case of a home invasion.

To own a shot-gun in the UK you need a permit and are subject to regular inspections by the police to ensure that guns and ammunition are safely locked up and kept separate. Rifles require a licence to buy and keep. Pistols(hand-guns) are illegal. They cannot even be held in licenced firing ranges or gun clubs.

The laws about pistols followed very soon after the massacre of children at a primary school in Dunblane by a man known to the school and not known to be ill. He shot himself too. There has been no repetition.

Tighter restrictions and stronger control over firearm possession just makes sense. This is why America has the NRA. It only job is to lobby government to prevent the sensible measures most people know are necessary.

Earlier I compared collecting guns to collecting stamps or doing jigsaw puzzles. There are no powerful, multi-million dollar organisations pestering Congress to protect the rights of these enthusiasts because collecting stamps and doing jigsaws rarely hurt other people. The NRA exists because gun collecting and ownership does.

Whyayeman: To own a shot-gun in the UK you need a permit and are subject to regular inspections by the police to ensure that guns and ammunition are safely locked up and kept separate.


JS: that would never work in the US. It would be seen as an evasion of privacy. Indeed, as most refile owners never have troubles with owning guns, they really be upset with such legislation. As for licensing, NY requires them for all fire arms, and limits who can buy and own them yet this has not stop the illegal gun trade.

This is both the strength and weakness of a Democratic Republic. Good, because most gun owners are responsible, and gun violence though high in some areas is low almost everywhere else. Bad because a few bad apples really does spoil the entire batch. Sadly its the mass shooting and cities with uncontrolled gun deaths that make the news, not the majority who are just not news worthy.

Still, creating gun laws to match other laws (car ownership or right to drive) would decrease some of those cases.

Whyayeman said:

I do not feel threatened myself. I live a long way from gun toting NRA members. I live in a country where the idea of gun possession is itself alien. Perhaps you can see the implication of suggesting that guns are necessary when the party of FDR,JFK and Barrack Obama is in power.

'... we unfortunately need to keep them around when the Democrats are in power.'

So, perhaps you can tell us what unfortunate circumstance it is that requires the remedy of possession of guns? Then say what - or who - would be the target. Then, maybe, you will see why talk of guns now is threatening.

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See, I don't feel threatened by the population having guns. I've fired guns with my grandpa, at camp, with friends. I've had a roommate who had guns. There are several stores in walking distance of me that sell ammunition, and I live in a pretty decent area. It's just more normal here. I would be more nervous living in a bad neighborhood, but they have drugs there too which they aren't supposed to have, and they're more likely to carry knives too. If someone is going to be carrying a knife, I want to be able to carry a handgun, I'm not going to fight for my life on the knife guy's terms if I can help it. First rule is avoidance of course, and I practice that and have been successful with it. But I believe good people need to have the option to train with, keep, and carry weapons. Limiting that to bad guys, cops, and soldiers means that good people are at the mercy of the responsiveness of the soldiers and cops, and at the mercy of the bad guys. That's not right. And in this country, it's also illegal, thanks to the Second Amendment.

Many Democrats do not respect this however, and they need to be kept in check. The NRA, imperfect as it is, helps to do that.

Joyous Song said:

1. I believe we should make gun ownership at least as difficult as car ownership. This requires a person be able to drive, they must prove they have passed a driving test and only then gain the right. Likewise gun owners should first be checked out to see if they have issues that would make owning a gun risky. Secondly gun owners should be trained in care and using guns for safe usage. Only then should they be allowed to buy and own a gun.

2. Gun violence is high in cities but ownership of legal guns tends to be higher in the country where gin violence is extremely low. Further those guns killing city people are mostly illegal and thus hard to legislate.

3. As regards the insurrection at the capital, those gun owners likely would not have passed through the first check above.

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Very sensible. And I’ll add one more. The gun owner should carry $250,000 of liability coverage in his homeowner’s policy, should he shoot someone unintentionally. Just like a licensed driver must have a minimum level of coverage should he injure someone in an accident.

BTW, in most states, there is no coverage if you shoot someone intentionally. Even if it’s an intruder. Though state laws generally prohibit any person shot during commission of a crime from filing a suit for damages.

jayem said:

Very sensible. And I’ll add one more. The gun owner should carry $250,000 of liability coverage in his homeowner’s policy, should he shoot someone unintentionally.

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I *really* like that idea. But why should the liability be limited to unintentional actions? I can see some exclusion clause if it's used in a suicide, but even if it's used against someone else intentionally, it would advantageous to the victim(s) if the liability insurance covered the victim, if only to pay for medical treatment if they live, or their funeral costs if they don't.

I can't help thinking that Sketcher's outlook on life is bleak. He has normalised the idea of using lethal force when threatened. Indeed he has normalised the idea that threats are part of his life and he must be prepared to kill as part of that normality.

Perhaps this is normal for Americans. It seems awful to me, and, I think, to Europeans generally.

And there has been a mass shooting in Indianapolis. Five dead, one a pregnant woman, and a child seriously wounded.

Whyayeman said:

I can't help thinking that Sketcher's outlook on life is bleak. He has normalised the idea of using lethal force when threatened. Indeed he has normalised the idea that threats are part of his life and he must be prepared to kill as part of that normality.

Perhaps this is normal for Americans. It seems awful to me, and, I think, to Europeans generally.

And there has been a mass shooting in Indianapolis. Five dead, one a pregnant woman, and a child seriously wounded.

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I've lived here all my life (50+ years; 25 in TX). I've never had need of a weapon. I've never even had need of force.

I think what's true is that we've fostered a culture of paranoia (to sell products?) coupled with the basic inability of humans to assess risk.

Now there are 2 factors one should know about my story: 1) I'm a privileged white guy that grew up in a privileged house, and 2) I tend to under estimate risk -- but not by much, I think.

Crime throughout the advanced world has been reducing steadily since about 1994 when recorded crime inexplicably peaked more or less simultaneously. (Nobody seems to have come up with an explanation.) Even so, fear of crime, has increased since that time. I am pretty sure firearms ownership has increased in the USA too.

I think 'we've fostered a culture of paranoia' is about right. Gunsmiths and gun shops have profited mightily. As for under-estimating risk - well, I think you would have mentioned it if you had been shot or had a gun pointed at you; so if so, not by much.

grasping the after wind said:

Gun ownership in the US is already highly regulated. We don't understand the Europeans obsession with our politics. I can be very confident is saying that the vast majority of Americans are totally indifferent to how Europeans run their own affairs.

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When you see a child playing in a drain full of rusty knives getting all mucky and then soiling itself while yelling ‘I’m the best’ you can’t help but be curious.

Par5 said:

Are you seriously trying to tell me that America does not assert its influence, not just on Europe, but on every other continent in the world?

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Those awful disease ridden Missionaries spring to mind.

98cwitr said:

The tool used to commission violence is less important than determining how and why people are so violent in America in the first place.

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It’s because it’s so easy and American culture is based on killing the bad guys (typically with guns).

The bad guys are any other person in existence.

Larnievc said:

It’s because it’s so easy and American culture is based on killing the bad guys (typically with guns).

The bad guys are any other person in existence.

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Not really. Bad guys are people who intentionally harm others (with or without a weapon).

How would someone in the UK defend themselves during a home invasion scenario?

Tinker Grey said:

I've lived here all my life (50+ years; 25 in TX). I've never had need of a weapon. I've never even had need of force.

I think what's true is that we've fostered a culture of paranoia (to sell products?) coupled with the basic inability of humans to assess risk.

Now there are 2 factors one should know about my story: 1) I'm a privileged white guy that grew up in a privileged house, and 2) I tend to under estimate risk -- but not by much, I think.

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Your risk estimate tends to be lower than others because you don't factor in the risk you face from liberals and government agents controlled by liberals.

Darkhorse said:

Don't start celebrating just yet; this is just re-organization to clean up mismanagement.

The NRA isn't going anywhere (other than Texas).

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Yep. Another tax paying company leaves NY.

To outsiders, it does seem that there is more than a degree of paranoia regarding the need to have a gun. Many of the posts here are painting America as being an extremely violent place and going about your day to day life can only be done safely if you carry a gun. Every country has violent people in their midst who are a danger to others, but is America really that bad?
When I leave my house my checklist is, have I got my house keys, my car keys, my wallet, and my phone. It would never cross my mind to consider adding a gun to that list.
I know that not all Americans buy into the gun culture, I have several American relatives who would testify to that.
Unfortunately, when it comes to reducing the number of guns in American society and also reducing the number of gun-related deaths I fear the genie is out of the bottle. Every year is deja vu. I really don't know what it will take to end the loss of so many lives.

98cwitr said:

Not really. Bad guys are people who intentionally harm others (with or without a weapon).

How would someone in the UK defend themselves during a home invasion scenario?

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By living in a country where it is exceptionally rare and being confident that any burglar would not be tooled up and would run rather than risk a fight.

America is much more violent than normal western nations.