Original sin, yes, no, or not that important?

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conceived by the Holy Spirit.


In order for Mary to conceive a child of the Holy Ghost in her womb, the Holy Ghost would've had to use her ovum to do it or otherwise the embryo would've been an implant; viz: Mary would've been a surrogate mother instead of Jesus' biological mother.
_
 
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Aussie Pete

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In order for Mary to conceive a child of the Holy Ghost in her womb, the Holy Ghost would've had to use her ovum to do it or otherwise the embryo would've been an implant; viz: Mary would've been a surrogate mother instead of Jesus' biological mother.
_
Agreed. Lord Jesus received His physical humanity from Eve. Lord Jesus was divine. We are plainly not.
 
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Beanieboy

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Intriguing question.

Before saying anyone of this, needing Scripture verses quoted, I am presenting an alternate, as the OP has done, simply to make us think outside the box, or the repeated Church belief one may have been born into, so as to never really think about it

I do not believe that because Adam and Eve sinned, all humans are now born into sin. As a Lutheran, I could never understand Catholics that would talk about babies going to Pergatory if they hadn’t been baptized, or even hell.

A baby? I don’t know if babies have concrete thoughts yet enough to be deemed evil word, thoughts or deeds.

Does that mean that when a baby grows to a toddler, to a child, to a teen to an adult, that they won’t make bad choices that do not love their neighbor, but are done in selfishness? Of course. If we were born perfect, or we were able to lead a Christ-like life, we would never understand forgiveness. I don’t think our imperfections are a curse, but rather, what challenges us to learn, to choose between our lower human desire to hold a grudge or get even, to the divine soul God designed us as, where we forgive those who sin against us, and bless those who curse you.

And if we pray for the ability to forgive, to love our enemies, it is given in abundance.

What I find really intriguing about the story is that the serpent tells Eve that she will not die, but will become like God. When God sees that they have eaten form the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (shouldn’t he just know?), he says, “They have become like us,” so, technically, the serpent did not lie. God then says to remove them from the garden before they eat of the Tree of Life, or else they will become eternal, like us.

But it reads like a myth to explain why there are rainbows in the sky, or why it gets cold in winter.

Men may have wondered why life was so hard, why tilling the land, and growing food was so much work, and women may have wondered why giving birth was so painful. By having a story about how Adam and Eve disobeyed, one can understand that life is hard because it is a punishment.

And following this belief, when one was born with a handicap, such as blindness, or being lame, it was seen as punishment for “sins of the father” passed on to the child. This is why, when Christ healed, he would often say, “Your sins are forgiven.” I do not believe the sins of the father are punished in the child. It is unjust.

So, in being made imperfect, we are able to forgive the imperfections of others. In being imperfect, we acknowledge our imperfections and humble ourselves before others, who also have imperfections. In being made imperfect, can choose to forgive those that will not ask for it, to love our enemies, and to love others as they are, not despite their imperfections, as we are loved by God. We also stumble and harm another lashing out in anger, and acting in selfishness, in order to learn how to own one’s sin, ask the person harmed for forgiveness, learn how to humble oneself, and yet, focus on actively loving to fulfill the law, instead of trying to remember every command of Scripture, and especially, not condemning another for minor or even questionable offences (men and women wearing the same garments, like pants.)

Each moment is a choice. On the left, you have love of self. It is where you are self-righteous, help others only if they can help you, lie if it gives you what you want, have disrespect for others, etc.

On the right, you have loving your neighbor as yourself. This will hold love, hope, forgiveness, mercy, kindness, gentleness, humility.

Standing in the centre, neutral between self and loving your neighbor, each opportunity arises.
Today, you walk by a homeless person. They ask you for money to get some food.

You can:
Give them a referral to a food shelf
Give them money
Go buy them some food
Tell them to get a job and keep walking.


The last choice will move you two steps to the left, justifying the selfish response.
The other 3 will give varying steps to the right, making you a little more full of empathy, a little more generous, a little more humble because you would want help if your situations were reversed...

Soon, if continuing in the same way, acting selfishly or selflessly will become second nature, your choice your own nature that makes your actions more predictable.

At any moment, the individual can choose to go the opposite direction - try to be kinder, and in effect, become a little kinder, or being burned at some point, stop helping others in order to care about oneself first, and become more selfish.

Every moment, every conversation, every interaction, every thought, holds an opportunity for change and improvement, or detriment.

Had we been born perfect, and had Adam and Eve simply obeyed, we wouldn’t have been able to really understand love, forgiveness, what it feels like to harm another or be harmed, fighting against injustice, and really being challenged to choose the high road.

So, I can’t imagine where mankind would be, where there is no need for forgiveness, no sadness, no death, no separation just....sunny and happy every day, the same, for eternity.
 
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Beanieboy

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One of the reasons I like this kind of OP, where one suspends their current belief for another explanation or possibility or interpretation, is that from a nonbeliever’s view, the story lacks sense.

God creates a perfect world, but then leaves one temptation that will result in death, and then has a serpent that can talk, and deceive Eve.

When she and Adam disobey and eat from the tree, they have Knowledge of Good and Evil, they are kicked out of Eden and sentenced to death.

To a nonBeliever, even to a believer, quite frankly, one has questions:
Yes, they disobeyed. Once. They did one bad thing. Christ teaches us to forgive 70x7 times, but God will not allow forgiveness for their disobedience.

What was the point of creating a tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil if the intent was that it was forbidden? Why create it at all?

If you tell you naive children “do what ever you want - there are games upstairs - oh! But just don’t lift this cup under any circumstances.” Then you send in the equivalent of Eddie Haskel that keeps goading the kids to see what’s under the cup, that no one will ever find out...
And when you see the children couldn’t resist, what? the equivalent of kick them out of the house?

Is it fair for God to judge them so harshly if the Tree implies that they lack the knowledge of Good and Evil, and thus, didn’t really understand that disobeying was evil?

If God cursed the snake to crawl on its belly, isn’t that what it already did? Or did it fly or walk around, and it’s limbs were taken away? And it wasn’t cursed stop talking, but no serpents have the brain nor the facial muscles to learn and speak language.
 
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Aussie Pete

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One of the reasons I like this kind of OP, where one suspends their current belief for another explanation or possibility or interpretation, is that from a nonbeliever’s view, the story lacks sense.

God creates a perfect world, but then leaves one temptation that will result in death, and then has a serpent that can talk, and deceive Eve.

When she and Adam disobey and eat from the tree, they have Knowledge of Good and Evil, they are kicked out of Eden and sentenced to death.

To a nonBeliever, even to a believer, quite frankly, one has questions:
Yes, they disobeyed. Once. They did one bad thing. Christ teaches us to forgive 70x7 times, but God will not allow forgiveness for their disobedience.

What was the point of creating a tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil if the intent was that it was forbidden? Why create it at all?

If you tell you naive children “do what ever you want - there are games upstairs - oh! But just don’t lift this cup under any circumstances.” Then you send in the equivalent of Eddie Haskel that keeps goading the kids to see what’s under the cup, that no one will ever find out...
And when you see the children couldn’t resist, what? the equivalent of kick them out of the house?

Is it fair for God to judge them so harshly if the Tree implies that they lack the knowledge of Good and Evil, and thus, didn’t really understand that disobeying was evil?

If God cursed the snake to crawl on its belly, isn’t that what it already did? Or did it fly or walk around, and it’s limbs were taken away? And it wasn’t cursed stop talking, but no serpents have the brain nor the facial muscles to learn and speak language.
The Bible does not make sense. It is a spiritual book for spiritual people. That is why the gospel must preached. Most of the people I've witnessed to balk at the idea that God could find fault with them. The problem is not that they disobeyed God. It was the consequences of disobedience that was the real issue. God warned them. It was the easiest thing ever to obey. You have just one restriction. How hard can it be? Adam and Eve died. The rest is history.

If you have a problem with God's ways, you need to take it up with Him. Personally, I am not that brave any more.
 
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WebersHome

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They did one bad thing. Christ teaches us to forgive 70x7 times, but God will not allow forgiveness for their disobedience.

Their disobedience was unpardonable because they were fully aware of not only the ban, but also the consequences.

BTW: Christ and his Father are in total agreement on everything.

John 5:19-20 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 10:30 . . I and my Father are unified.

So then, had Jesus been there, he would have concurred with God's decision to evict Adam and his wife from the Garden, and also condemn them to death.



What was the point of creating a tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil if the intent was that it was forbidden? Why create it at all?

Why create toadstools, rattlesnakes, cyanide, sharks, electricity, atomic energy, et al?

Everything in the cosmos serves a purpose. I've no doubt that the tree was an important part of the Garden's environment if only they would've just let it alone. When man pushes the limits, sometimes the limits push back, and sometimes even the balance of nature is thrown off, e.g. soil erosion, air and water pollution, global warming and E.coli 0157-H7, etc.


If God cursed the snake to crawl on its belly, isn’t that what it already did?

The Serpent wasn't a literal reptile. According to Rev 12:9 and Rev 20:2, it's another name for the Devil.


Is it fair for God to judge them so harshly if the Tree implies that they lack the knowledge of Good and Evil, and thus, didn’t really understand that disobeying was evil?

The tree gave didn't give them a true knowledge of good and evil. It gave them a humanistic knowledge; i.e. they became their own Gods. (Gen 3:22)

Does your sense of right and wrong agree with God's? Well, from what I've seen in your post; you and God are not on the same wave length. Why not? Because you are your own God. The effects of that tree are in your thinking and in your conscience.
_
 
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fhansen

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Recently, a poster questioned the concept of Original Sin. He/she quoted Ezekiel 18 as a counter argument. My view is that there is a great deal of support for the idea that people are born sinners. Much of Romans 5 can be seen as supporting the concept of original sin.

Let's allow that the doctrine of Original Sin is incorrect or at least, not proven. It still leaves humanity with an insoluble problem. God created Adam and Eve "good" but they were incomplete. That is apparent from the provision of two unique trees in the garden of Eden. There was the tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God warned Adam that the fruit of the knowledge tree was deadly. There was no other restriction placed on Adam.

We know the sorry story. Eve was deceived by the Serpent and Adam chose to join in her disobedience. The history of the human race demonstrates just how bad Adam's decision turned out to be.

Now God warned Adam that he would die. Please note that God did not say, "Adam, I will kill you". Adam did not die physically. His soul did not die. He could still think, feel and choose. So what did God mean? What God referred to was the spirit of man. Man died spiritually. Death is not the end of existence. We can see from the Genesis account that man still existed. But the man and the woman immediately covered up and hid from God.

The next thing was that they pushed the blame elsewhere. Adam blamed God - it was Eve's fault and God gave him Eve. Eve blamed the Serpent. And so it has been since that terrible day. How often have unbelievers told us that they are good people, in spite of blindingly obvious sin in their lives.

God closed access to the Tree of Life. From that time on, man had to live only by the knowledge of Good and Evil.

There is a great deal more to say on this subject, but I realise that people do not like to read overly long dissertations. Congratulations if you've got this far!

The Lord Jesus told us why He came to this earth 2,000 years ago. Most Christian teaching focuses on forgiveness of sins. I believe that this emphasis is overblown and does a great disservice to God's people. It fails to address a fundamental problem. All people are born spiritually dead to God. God will not dwell in the realm of death. He is the Author of life.

Lord Jesus came that we might have abundant life (John 10:10). Indeed, Lord Jesus is the Life (John 14:6). He offers eternal life to those who believe (John 3:36)

Much is made of being saved by grace. Yes. Romans 5:10 tells us that we are saved by His Life. Grace = life of Christ.

We need the forgiveness of sins in order to be made right with God. We need much more that that if we are to live a life that pleases God. Sin/repent/confess/be cleansed is a cycle of defeat that is a blessing to no one. What we need is the power to live the life that we know we should be living.

The only Person ever to live the life that pleased God is Lord Jesus. He offers His own life to the believer so that we may have the power to live in a way pleasing to God.

The question remains the same as confronted Adam in Eden. Will we choose life? Or will we choose the knowledge of good and evil instead? Every Christian knows Lord Jesus to be the Way and the Truth. Every Christian will agree that the Lord Jesus is the Life, as stated in John 14:6. It is a shame that few Christians know the Lord Jesus as the Life in their experience.

In Adam, all die. Only in Christ shall all be made alive. If you are in Christ, then you are alive. The question then becomes, are you living by the principle of Good and Evil, trying to establish your own righteousness? Or are you depending on the Life of Christ within you to be all that you need to be but cannot be? The difference is stark. Only those who experience the Life of Christ know victory over sin, Satan and the world.
The concept of OS seeks to explain why sin and evil are prevalent in this world, why things simply aren't as they "should be". Is it really natural for people to lie, steal, kill, torture, rape, etc, sometimes committing atrocities against each other that should make the most savage of animals blush if they could. Is that how God made us to be? Is there not an innocent state of being for man that would preclude such acts by its nature? Why do we sin?

The state known as Original Sin means that man, via the Fall, was cut off from God in terms of subjugation to His will and rightful authority. They were cut off from relationship with and knowledge of Him (since they no longer truly recognized a God above themselves), exiling themselves to a world where His will was nowhere directly in sight in the moral sphere, where our own consciences are dimmed and easily overridden with the same abuse of free will that caused that first sin. Except that now we're severely "disadvantaged" in a way: wounded, sick, lost, asleep, dead, because we don't even know the way back home; the "knowledge of God" is lost, gone, and only He can come and fetch us back. Jesus came to find us, to give us back the knowledge of God, to reveal Him as He'd never been revealed before when the time was ripe and we might therefore be able to begin to understand and accept it, to accept Him. So that we might turn back, and be healed, and set free, and justified and saved, having experienced life without Him like prodigals away from their home. Having begun to learn what Adam didn't yet get in Eden, that, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

Once man knows Him (Jer 31:34) and turns back through faith into a relationship or communion with God, but this time one of loving and willful subjugation, He can do a work in us:
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

Here the unjust and anomalous state of OS is reversed in us; man is restored to relationship with God; he can wisely begin to eat of the Tree of Life now perhaps. In any case God can now restore the original innocence that was lost-a loss that is so often evident as observed in our acts and relations with others. A teaching I'm familiar with states that, at the Fall, man was in one way or another divided from God, from his fellow man, from the rest of creation, and within his own self.
 
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Saint JOHN

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Adam and Eve died eventually , remember the adversary only added ONE word to what God said..NOT..
you shall NOT surely die.. etc

just like today when man preaches anything short of the FULL gospel..

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

etc

it is by the grace (free unmerited favour ) and mercy of God that we all can enter into the salvation covenant made available through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ;

acts 2v38...

Repent (babys cant, mans idea !)
be Baptised (full immersion, symbol of burying your old life, its what the word means)
(ask God {not men} for) the Holy Spirit.. (ask and keep on asking until you receive it ! and when you do you and others will know;

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

etc
NOT religion as the world knows , that's what crucified Jesus in the first place..!

Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Recently, a poster questioned the concept of Original Sin. He/she quoted Ezekiel 18 as a counter argument. My view is that there is a great deal of support for the idea that people are born sinners. Much of Romans 5 can be seen as supporting the concept of original sin.

Let's allow that the doctrine of Original Sin is incorrect or at least, not proven. It still leaves humanity with an insoluble problem. God created Adam and Eve "good" but they were incomplete. That is apparent from the provision of two unique trees in the garden of Eden. There was the tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God warned Adam that the fruit of the knowledge tree was deadly. There was no other restriction placed on Adam.

We know the sorry story. Eve was deceived by the Serpent and Adam chose to join in her disobedience. The history of the human race demonstrates just how bad Adam's decision turned out to be.

Now God warned Adam that he would die. Please note that God did not say, "Adam, I will kill you". Adam did not die physically. His soul did not die. He could still think, feel and choose. So what did God mean? What God referred to was the spirit of man. Man died spiritually. Death is not the end of existence. We can see from the Genesis account that man still existed. But the man and the woman immediately covered up and hid from God.

The next thing was that they pushed the blame elsewhere. Adam blamed God - it was Eve's fault and God gave him Eve. Eve blamed the Serpent. And so it has been since that terrible day. How often have unbelievers told us that they are good people, in spite of blindingly obvious sin in their lives.

God closed access to the Tree of Life. From that time on, man had to live only by the knowledge of Good and Evil.

There is a great deal more to say on this subject, but I realise that people do not like to read overly long dissertations. Congratulations if you've got this far!

The Lord Jesus told us why He came to this earth 2,000 years ago. Most Christian teaching focuses on forgiveness of sins. I believe that this emphasis is overblown and does a great disservice to God's people. It fails to address a fundamental problem. All people are born spiritually dead to God. God will not dwell in the realm of death. He is the Author of life.

Lord Jesus came that we might have abundant life (John 10:10). Indeed, Lord Jesus is the Life (John 14:6). He offers eternal life to those who believe (John 3:36)

Much is made of being saved by grace. Yes. Romans 5:10 tells us that we are saved by His Life. Grace = life of Christ.

We need the forgiveness of sins in order to be made right with God. We need much more that that if we are to live a life that pleases God. Sin/repent/confess/be cleansed is a cycle of defeat that is a blessing to no one. What we need is the power to live the life that we know we should be living.

The only Person ever to live the life that pleased God is Lord Jesus. He offers His own life to the believer so that we may have the power to live in a way pleasing to God.

The question remains the same as confronted Adam in Eden. Will we choose life? Or will we choose the knowledge of good and evil instead? Every Christian knows Lord Jesus to be the Way and the Truth. Every Christian will agree that the Lord Jesus is the Life, as stated in John 14:6. It is a shame that few Christians know the Lord Jesus as the Life in their experience.

In Adam, all die. Only in Christ shall all be made alive. If you are in Christ, then you are alive. The question then becomes, are you living by the principle of Good and Evil, trying to establish your own righteousness? Or are you depending on the Life of Christ within you to be all that you need to be but cannot be? The difference is stark. Only those who experience the Life of Christ know victory over sin, Satan and the world.
Let's not leave put the following passages:
Psalm 51:5-6:
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Let's not leave put the following passages:
Psalm 51:5-6:
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
Yes, it's one of my "proof texts". Personally, I don't know how anyone can believe in other than original sin. But some do.
 
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fhansen

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As I was walking my dog through the park there was a Christian Church singing. I pondered the Christian emphasis on the redemptive blood of Christ. I began to think that it is not so much blood as it is the LOVE that brought it. The blood is symbolic and proof of the love of Jesus which is the love of God flowing through him. Without the love there would be no significance to the blood. It would be just like any blood. But now his blood signifies God's love and takes away sin because that love reorients us and gives us a new relationship with sin. We are no longer lost in it or gripped by it. Sin is almost insignificant in light of the love we share. Sins can be forgotten and we start over again and again as we try in good faith to be holy. There is power in the love.

Just a thought while walking Ruby.
I really appreciate the words of St Teresa of Avila, "It's love alone that gives worth to all things." Simple, while extraordinarily profound. I also understand the Church's teaching, that we'll be judged on our love, echoing John of the Cross. Love is the real definition of man's justice/righteousness; it opposes sin by its nature. We're saved by love, and unto love.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I really appreciate the words of St Teresa of Avila, "It's love alone that gives worth to all things." Simple, while extraordinarily profound. I also understand the Church's teaching, that we'll be judged on our love, echoing John of the Cross. Love is the real definition of man's justice/righteousness; it opposes sin by its nature. We're saved by love, and unto love.
Love may well be the real judge of our level of sanctification (fulfilling the edict to "Be Holy even as I the Lord your God am Holy), but righteousness comes only from faith in Christ and is a free gift of God poured out on whom He so determines and this determination was made, the Scriptures say, before the creation of the universe.
 
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fhansen

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Love may well be the real judge of our level of sanctification (fulfilling the edict to "Be Holy even as I the Lord your God am Holy), but righteousness comes only from faith in Christ and is a free gift of God poured out on whom He so determines and this determination was made, the Scriptures say, before the creation of the universe.
Righteousness comes only from faith in Christ but that's a real righteousness, given/infused/imparted to us, the righteousness man was made for and that only God can give. It comes by faith simply by virtue of the fact that faith establishes the right and just communion with God that man was made for, and within which God can do a work in us. A work we can cooperate with as we faithfully work it out with Him (Phil 2), or which we can refuse and reject at any point along the way. It's a total, unified package, justification and sanctification.
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

Without holiness, purity of heart, we won't even be capable of seeing the Lord, distracted by other, lesser things before Him as we are, to the extent that we don't yet love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

"Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."
Gal 6:8

Love is the measuring stick of man's justice, which is why the sheep and the goats in Matt 25 were separated based on what they did-or didn't do- for "the least of these". Only love can authentically compel the obedience of the commandments which Jesus told the young ruler would gain him eternal life. Only love fulfills the law, which Romans 2 tells us we'll be judged on. Love is what faith is meant to lead to.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Righteousness comes only from faith in Christ but that's a real righteousness, given/infused/imparted to us, the righteousness man was made for and that only God can give. It comes by faith simply by virtue of the fact that faith establishes the right and just communion with God that man was made for, and within which God can do a work in us. A work we can cooperate with as we faithfully work it out with Him (Phil 2), or which we can refuse and reject at any point along the way. It's a total, unified package, justification and sanctification.
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

Without holiness, purity of heart, we won't even be capable of seeing the Lord, distracted by other, lesser things before Him as we are, to the extent that we don't yet love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

"Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."
Gal 6:8

Love is the measuring stick of man's justice, which is why the sheep and the goats in Matt 25 were separated based on what they did-or didn't do- for "the least of these". Only love can authentically compel the obedience of the commandments which Jesus told the young ruler would gain him eternal life. Only love fulfills the law, which Romans 2 tells us we'll be judged on. Love is what faith is meant to lead to.
I agree with most of your post now that you have fully expressed it. A man can even give all he owns to the poor and surrender his body to the flames, but without love he gains nothing according to
I Corinthians 13. We, now that we are proclaimed righteous, credited with righteousness by our faith, we can live by Christ's law (I Corinthians 9:21) which Romans 7:6 defines as living to please the Spirit... governed by love. As we see in I Corinthians 13, love has many facets and the Body of Christ made up of all true believers is assigned many gifts and talents and they are all bound together by love and carried out by the prompting of our Christ-like love.
 
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Butterball1

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There's no Original Sin (OS)

If OS were true;

--it contradicts the Bible, OS defines sin differently than the Bible does, 1 John 3:4; Romans 4:15; Romans 7:8-9.

--Jesus Christ would have been born with it, Hebrews 2:17; Philippians 2:7-8. I know excuses have been made to get around this problem OS has created, but even those excuses are not found in the Bible. Hence OS leads to other false teachings including infant baptism, man has lost the image of God, makes man totally passive in his regeneration thereby having God (Holy Spirit) choosing winners and losers making God culpable for those lost who were not chosen to be regenerated.

--it makes man an innocent, blameless victim of sin rather than man being the guilty willful perpetrator of sin, Exodus 9:27; Joshua 7:20; 1 Samuel 15:24; Psalms 41:4. To punish man for how he was born would be unjust, cruel. Judging the world in righteousness (Psalms 9:8) could not be done. So God does NOT judge man according to man's natural INabilities (how he was passively born against his will) but according to man's moral abilities (what man willfully chooses to do).

--it would give man an excuse for his sins when he has none, Romans 1:20. Christ did not die for man because man is an innocent victim of sin but because man is a guilty, willful perpetrator without excuse for his sins. Christ did not die to redeem man from his misfortunes but from his willful sins.

--if man is born with OS/sin nature, then it makes God responsible. Certainly cannot blame man for how he was born, man has no control over how he was born. God is the one who created man, did He create man upright (Ecclesiastes 7:29) or create man corrupt?

--if OS were true then it renders God's commands pointless, sinless. Why command man to believe or repent when it be impossible? The command itself implies man has both ability and responsibility to heed God's commands or be punished. Again, how can God justly condemn those unable to obey His commands having been passively born with a sin nature preventing them to do so?
 
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coffee4u

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There's no Original Sin (OS)

If OS were true;

--it contradicts the Bible, OS defines sin differently than the Bible does, 1 John 3:4; Romans 4:15; Romans 7:8-9.

Those verses don't contradict anything, nor are they talking about original sin. Original Sin is the sin nature, the propensity to go and sin. A child does not have to be taught how to be naughty or selfish, it's inbuilt.


Jesus Christ would have been born with it,?

No because sin is passed from the father to the child. The mother does not pass on the sin nature. It went from Adam to his children, then from his sons to their children and so on.
This is why sin spread to the world by one man, Adam.
Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—


This is because it was Adam's sin that caused the fall because his sin was one of disobedience. Eve did not sin from disobedience but from being deceived.

1 Timothy 2:14

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Adam sinned knowingly.

Jesus had no father so he did not have the sin nature passed onto him. Only his flesh was tempted as Satan did to Eve. Which is why he was tempted in the desert. He had to be tempted and not fall into sin. It's also why Jesus came as a man not as a woman, why he is called the second Adam. One man plunged the human race into sin and one man had to lift it. Of course no normal human could have resisted which is why Jesus was also God.
 
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fhansen

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There's no Original Sin (OS)

If OS were true;

--it contradicts the Bible, OS defines sin differently than the Bible does, 1 John 3:4; Romans 4:15; Romans 7:8-9.

--Jesus Christ would have been born with it, Hebrews 2:17; Philippians 2:7-8. I know excuses have been made to get around this problem OS has created, but even those excuses are not found in the Bible. Hence OS leads to other false teachings including infant baptism, man has lost the image of God, makes man totally passive in his regeneration thereby having God (Holy Spirit) choosing winners and losers making God culpable for those lost who were not chosen to be regenerated.

--it makes man an innocent, blameless victim of sin rather than man being the guilty willful perpetrator of sin, Exodus 9:27; Joshua 7:20; 1 Samuel 15:24; Psalms 41:4. To punish man for how he was born would be unjust, cruel. Judging the world in righteousness (Psalms 9:8) could not be done. So God does NOT judge man according to man's natural INabilities (how he was passively born against his will) but according to man's moral abilities (what man willfully chooses to do).

--it would give man an excuse for his sins when he has none, Romans 1:20. Christ did not die for man because man is an innocent victim of sin but because man is a guilty, willful perpetrator without excuse for his sins. Christ did not die to redeem man from his misfortunes but from his willful sins.

--if man is born with OS/sin nature, then it makes God responsible. Certainly cannot blame man for how he was born, man has no control over how he was born. God is the one who created man, did He create man upright (Ecclesiastes 7:29) or create man corrupt?

--if OS were true then it renders God's commands pointless, sinless. Why command man to believe or repent when it be impossible? The command itself implies man has both ability and responsibility to heed God's commands or be punished. Again, how can God justly condemn those unable to obey His commands having been passively born with a sin nature preventing them to do so?
Original sin is simply the state of being separated from God, the reason that we don’t know Him now and the stuff that other sins originate from. All sin is an anomaly in nature, something that “should not be”. Man is lost, dead, apart from God-but man was made for communion with God, not meant to be his own “god”, determining right and wrong for himself. Adam thought otherwise and propelled humanity into a very different world where man in some manner or another is distanced not only from God but from his fellow man, from the rest of creation, and even from himself. The doctrine of Original Sin seeks to explain this, and therefore to explain the existence of moral evil (sin) in our world. This teaching says that man is now wounded, sick and unable to cure himself even though his will is weakened while not totally corrupted; he still possesses the image of God within himself-so that he still retains culpability for sin and for seeking and then turning to God when he hears Him calling.

An erroneous teaching maintains that man is totally dead, unable to say yes or no to God, possessing a "sin nature". That would make it impossible for man to ever do the right thing and should mitigate his culpability but many theologies deny this, saying that all men deserve hell anyway. But in truth no new or different nature had been added at the Fall. Instead, something is missing-and that's grace: the life of God in us. With the New Covenant God moves or draws man towards Himself and then man's responsibility is to say yes rather than no-and continue to say yes, incidentally, throughout his life.
 
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Butterball1

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Those verses don't contradict anything, nor are they talking about original sin. Original Sin is the sin nature, the propensity to go and sin. A child does not have to be taught how to be naughty or selfish, it's inbuilt.




No because sin is passed from the father to the child. The mother does not pass on the sin nature. It went from Adam to his children, then from his sons to their children and so on.
This is why sin spread to the world by one man, Adam.
Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—


This is because it was Adam's sin that caused the fall because his sin was one of disobedience. Eve did not sin from disobedience but from being deceived.

1 Timothy 2:14

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Adam sinned knowingly.

Jesus had no father so he did not have the sin nature passed onto him. Only his flesh was tempted as Satan did to Eve. Which is why he was tempted in the desert. He had to be tempted and not fall into sin. It's also why Jesus came as a man not as a woman, why he is called the second Adam. One man plunged the human race into sin and one man had to lift it. Of course no normal human could have resisted which is why Jesus was also God.
1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of God's law.
Romans 4:15 says if there were no law there would be no transgression.
Romans 7:8-9 shows when one is born, as an infant sin has no power over him until he learns right from wrong (Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 7:15-16) THEN sin springs up in him.

So according to the Bible for one to be a sinner, there must a law, that law must be transgressed by an accountable person then and only then is a person a sinner. OS tries to have one a sinner who has not transgressed any law, who is not accoutable to God's law. Nowhere ever does the Bible define sin as a substance that is UNconditionally passed from person to person nor just an idea that that is UNconditionally passed from person to person.

IF OS were true, Christ would have been born with it. You appear to try and get around this problem by implying OS is passed through fathers not mothers. What verse(s) explicitly teaches this idea? (Or where does it teach immaculate conception?) The Bible does not teach OS it therefore would not teach either if these excuses used to get around Jesus being born with OS. Psalms 51:5 is supposed to be a OS 'proof text' but it only mentions the mother. Romans 9:11 shows before children are born none have done any good or evil meaning children are not born sinners nor or they born righteous, they are born as a 'blank slate' and do not become sinners before they sin nor become righteous before they do righteousness.

Romans 5:12 does NOT end by saying 'for that all have been unconditionally born sinners'. It does say 'for that all have sinned' which show personal culpability in having sinned and not how one was passively, unconditionally born against his will.

Above, the BIble says for sin to exist there 1) must be a law 2) it must be transgressed by an accountable person. In the garden of Eden there was a law (not eat of a certain tree) and that law was transgressed by accountable people (Adam & Eve). Adam nor Eve were not unconditionally created sinners nor created with a sin nature against their will. All it took for them to become sinners was a law and their making a choice to transgress that law. There was no need for OS/sin nature for Adam/Eve to become sinners and there is no need for OS/sin nature for us today to become sinners. We today become sinners in the same way Adam and Eve became sinners and that is when accountable people choose to transgress God's law THEN one becomes a sinner. To have people becoming sinners in ways different from Adam and Eve has NO Biblical support.
 
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