Is Evangelicalism a false religion?

Fervent · Jan 24, 2021

Saint Steven said:
People coming to God typically know little to nothing about the Bible. They have to take classes and apply themselves to study to gain that knowledge. The relationship begins without the Bible. The Bible comes later.

Sure, but if the Bible doesn't come(either through personal reading or through interaction with people who do read it) then relationships do not proceed. There is no genuine relationship with God apart from His self-revelation, whether that be via initial revelation through preaching(from people who know the Bible) or continued relationship through learning about Biblical revelation. Unless you're saying people look to nature and go "Jesus, my savior!"

mark46 · Jan 24, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I question whether God really intended for us to be dissecting a book the way we are. Or whether he even wanted us to have the book in the first place. Who told the RCC to canonize (collect and vote on) the Bible?

On occasion I ask these Bible-thumpers what would become of their relationship with God if they put their library out on the curb on trash day. Then what? Would they ever hear from God again? Or might they hear from him for the first time?

The reason for canonization is that some very false books were being read in churches and were being used to teach. So, there was a need to canonize the books that could be considered acceptable to all of the Church.

Clare73 · Jan 24, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
That was what Thomas Howard experienced, maybe not exactly the mood lighting, but that whole general thing. And it left him with a bit on ennui. Then he discovered liturgy, first among Anglicans and then among the Orthodox and Catholics. He eventually did become Catholic but while he was still solidly evangelical he did write a book called 'Evangelical Is Not Enough'. It was a basic call for evangelicals to adopt liturgical worship. I think he was absolutely right. Of course I also think he was right to become Catholic later on. But he was right about liturgy because we need that organization, that movement, that connection to our Hebrew roots.

I would suggest you try out a liturgical service. If there is an Orthodox liturgy in English that might be good. Orthodox in another language might be good or bewildering depending.

A Catholic liturgy is a bit more austere but even there we have some fuller expressions, the Latin mass and the Ordinariate mass and the various eastren rites. With the Latin mass there will probably be guides in English. With the Ordinariate mass it's essentially Cranmerian English while actually Catholic. Anyhow, one of the many above.
All of them have deep roots going back to the worship of the Temple,

One major and important difference. . .Temple worship was through ceremonies and rituals of types and shadows, patterns and "pictures" of the realities to come.

We now have the realities themselves, and NT worship should reflect that, should be more immediate than OT liturgies.

honed over hundreds and hundreds of years. It's not what the worship leader cooked up last week.

And do find Thomas Howard's book. If you stay evangelical you might want to try to get it implemented. If you become liturgical yourself, this may launch you.

mark46 · Jan 24, 2021

Saint Steven said:
We are so dependent on our books, we wouldn't recognize God if he walked past us on the street.

and we don't recognize those who God sends

Were we there when the beggar needed food, when the sick needed help?

Saint Steven · Jan 24, 2021

Fervent said:
Sure, but if the Bible doesn't come(either through personal reading or through interaction with people who do read it) then relationships do not proceed. There is no genuine relationship with God apart from His self-revelation, whether that be via initial revelation through preaching(from people who know the Bible) or continued relationship through learning about Biblical revelation. Unless you're saying people look to nature and go "Jesus, my savior!"

You seem to have the idea that God is something you discover in a book. That he is not real and effecting people's lives every day. People who know nothing about the Bible.

God still speaks to those who are listening. Those with there nose in a book are missing out.

mark46 · Jan 24, 2021

Saint Steven said:
People coming to God typically know little to nothing about the Bible. They have to take classes and apply themselves to study to gain that knowledge. The relationship begins without the Bible. The Bible comes later.

Amen!

In the end, we do NOT have a relationship with Scripture. We have a relationship with God and His Son; we are brought to that relationship through the power of the Holy Spirit. God has brought us into relationship with himself.

the rest is commentary, including Scripture which certainly teaches us about Jesus and his life

Saint Steven · Jan 24, 2021

mark46 said:
and we don't recognize those who God sends

Were we there when the beggar needed food, when the sick needed help?

Exactly.

Hebrews 13:2
Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.

mark46 · Jan 24, 2021

Have not the saints taught us to evangelize with love toward one another, and if absolutely necessary use words (mainly when asked for the reason for your hope)?

Saint Steven · Jan 24, 2021

mark46 said:
The reason for canonization is that some very false books were being read in churches and were being used to teach. So, there was a need to canonize the books that could be considered acceptable to all of the Church.

I agree.
And I thank the Catholic Church for doing such an awesome job. Much appreciated.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I question whether God really intended for us to be dissecting a book the way we are. Or whether he even wanted us to have the book in the first place. Who told the RCC to canonize (collect and vote on) the Bible?

On occasion I ask these Bible-thumpers what would become of their relationship with God if they put their library out on the curb on trash day. Then what? Would they ever hear from God again? Or might they hear from him for the first time?

Fervent · Jan 24, 2021

Saint Steven said:
You seem to have the idea that God is something you discover in a book. That he is not real and effecting people's lives every day. People who know nothing about the Bible.

God still speaks to those who are listening. Those with there nose in a book are missing out.

Not at all, I just recognize He's not the only spirit talking and has chosen to reveal the intimate details about Himself through a book and that book is indispensible to a genuine relationship with Him. He speaks, but His nature and consistency make it so that we can best understand Him through the words of those who He has spoken through in the past. Jesus is the final word from God, and we truly learn who He is through walking with Him in the Bible. Those who belittle the Bible often have built for themselves false gods in their own image rather than recognizing God as He truly is, which is apparent because they seek Him where He said He hides instead of where He has fully revealed Himself.

NotreDame · Jan 24, 2021

Saint Steven said:
This is a discussion. Weigh in.
For the purposes of this OP, John MacArthur is an Evangelical leader, he is representative of Evangelicalism. Agree or disagree?

John MacArthur is attacking Eastern Orthodoxy. Are you okay with that? Is this a manifestation of a true, or false religion?

I have no idea if John MacArthur is representative of evangelicalism. I’m not sure how one can rationally demonstrate he is or isn’t.

More poignantly, I could not care less for the issue of whether a human construct, the label called “evangelicalism” is applicable to some specific person. I am also equally uninterested whether this person represents a majority of people under the label of “evangelicalism.”

I am more interested and in what you personally find objectionable and why. Whether you want to call evangelicalism, communism, capitalism, ramblings from the self unaware is pointless.

What is it you find objectionable about John?

Saint Steven · Jan 24, 2021

Fervent said:
Not at all, I just recognize He's not the only spirit talking and has chosen to reveal the intimate details about Himself through a book and that book is indispensible to a genuine relationship with Him. He speaks, but His nature and consistency make it so that we can best understand Him through the words of those who He has spoken through in the past. Jesus is the final word from God, and we truly learn who He is through walking with Him in the Bible. Those who belittle the Bible often have built for themselves false gods in their own image rather than recognizing God as He truly is, which is apparent because they seek Him where He said He hides instead of where He has fully revealed Himself.

Can an illiterate person have a relationship with God?

Saint Steven · Jan 24, 2021

NotreDame said:
I have no idea if John MacArthur is representative of evangelicalism. I’m not sure how one can rationally demonstrate he is or isn’t.

More poignantly, I could not care less for the issue of whether a human construct, the label called “evangelicalism” is applicable to some specific person. I am also equally uninterested whether this person represents a majority of people under the label of “evangelicalism.”

I am more interested and in what you personally find objectionable and why. Whether you want to call evangelicalism, communism, capitalism, ramblings from the self unaware is pointless.

What is it you find objectionable about John?

It seems that you have neither watched the video nor read the topic from the beginning. You are rather late to the party.

Fervent · Jan 24, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Can an illiterate person have a relationship with God?

Apart from being taught about the Bible from someone else? No. Whether directly read or not, it is only through God's self-revelation that we have a relationship with Him. People who don't have a Bible in their language must be taught it by people who are multilingual, people who can't read must find some other means of consuming it either audiobooks or through being taught by another. Why do you want an excuse to ignore how God has chosen to reveal Himself?

2PhiloVoid · Jan 24, 2021

NotreDame said:
I have no idea if John MacArthur is representative of evangelicalism. I’m not sure how one can rationally demonstrate he is or isn’t.

More poignantly, I could not care less for the issue of whether a human construct, the label called “evangelicalism” is applicable to some specific person. I am also equally uninterested whether this person represents a majority of people under the label of “evangelicalism.”

I am more interested and in what you personally find objectionable and why. Whether you want to call evangelicalism, communism, capitalism, ramblings from the self unaware is pointless.

What is it you find objectionable about John?

How about the fact that he and his church have refused to wear masks ...

... in the middle of a pandemic? :dontcare:

coffee4u · Jan 24, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Though I was raised Evangelical, I have moved steadily away from it for most of my Christian life. To the point where I now see it as an exclusionary religion with a militant zeal for a theological platform.
.

This is what an evangelical is or is to me.
1) We believe in being born again. A person must must personally trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.
2) We believe the Bible to be God's breathed word to us. As such it stands as what is true or not.
3) That Jesus is the only source of salvation and forgiveness of sins and that salvation is through faith alone.

Which one do you disagree with?

Are you sure that you are disagreeing with evangelicals or simply what some people try and pass off as evangelic?

This mentions 5 things. I would say point 5 is debatable since there are a lot of different views on the end times. I would say a belief in a New Heavens and a New Earth. 5 Beliefs That Set Evangelicals Apart From Other Christians

hedrick · Jan 24, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
How about the fact that he and his church have refused to wear masks ...

... in the middle of a pandemic?

Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 saying to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written,
‘He will command his angels concerning you,’
and ‘On their hands they will bear you up,
so that you will not dash your foot against a stone.’ ”
7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”
Mat 4:5-7

NotreDame · Jan 24, 2021

Saint Steven said:
John MacArthur is attacking Eastern Orthodoxy. Are you okay with that? Is this a manifestation of a true, or false religion?

I concur with MacArthur. In my reading of James, in conjunction with the other parts of the Bible addressing how man is justified, Hanegraff misunderstands the book of James.

I will elucidate in a moment.

2PhiloVoid · Jan 24, 2021

hedrick said:
Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 saying to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written,
‘He will command his angels concerning you,’
and ‘On their hands they will bear you up,
so that you will not dash your foot against a stone.’ ”
7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”
Mat 4:5-7

Is this the reference that he uses to fend off critics?

NotreDame · Jan 24, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
How about the fact that he and his church have refused to wear masks ...

... in the middle of a pandemic?

What does this have to do with what I have said.

Is Evangelicalism a false religion?

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