The New Covenant

Guojing said:

Well if you have a different interpretation of those passages I have used, why don’t you share yours and all of us can learn together?

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Time is a precious commodity and there are many other things I should be spending it on.

MMXX said:

Time is a precious commodity and there are many other things I should be spending it on.

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Alright then, cheers.

I smiled when my pastor today went to acts 10:38 again, in the church. When I composed this post, The New Covenant, it was before that knowledge.

Guojing said:

Alright then, cheers.

I smiled when my pastor today went to acts 10:38 again, in the church. When I composed this post, The New Covenant, it was before that knowledge.

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What you don't seem to be getting is that when your interpretation of scripture is completely out of whack with everyone else's, you are most likely not rightly dividing the word and practicing eisegesis.

MMXX said:

What you don't seem to be getting is that when your interpretation of scripture is completely out of whack with everyone else's, you are most likely not rightly dividing the word and practicing eisegesis. That's not something to smile about and pat yourself on the back over. It means there's a good chance that you're in dangerous territory.

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You are saying this and yet unwilling to offer alternative interpretations?

To me, to be part of a new covenant, it implies that it applies to them who were part of what is called the old covenant. It applies to them of the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Not to gentiles.

To us who are not descendants of those tribes - we are not under any covenant, but have Salvation in Jesus.

Regarding the house of Israel and the house of Judah, the combined two houses, i.e. the whole house of Israel, there has not been a national embracing of the new covenant in Christ that God provided for them - yet.

Christians should be speaking in terms of Salvation - not covenants. The old and new covenants are an Israel issue - not a church issue.

But things got conflated with the advent of the covenant and new covenant theology movements begun in England. So it is a never ending argument and topic in this forum.

Douggg said:

To me, to be part of a new covenant, it implies that it applies to them who were part of what is called the old covenant. It applies to them of the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Not to gentiles.

To us who are not descendants of those tribes - we are not under any covenant, but have Salvation in Jesus.

Regarding the house of Israel and the house of Judah, the combined two houses, i.e. the whole house of Israel, there has not been an embracing of the new covenant in Christ that God provided for them - yet.

Christians should be speaking in terms of Salvation - not covenants. The old and new covenants are an Israel issue - not a church issue.

But things got conflated with the advent of the covenant and new covenant theology movements begun in England. So it is a never ending argument and topic in this forum.

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Even though you claim to be non-dispensationalist, you rightly divide the word of truth.

Douggg said:

To me, to be part of a new covenant, it implies that it applies to them who were part of what is called the old covenant. It applies to them of the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Not to gentiles.

To us who are not descendants of those tribes - we are not under any covenant, but have Salvation in Jesus.

Regarding the house of Israel and the house of Judah, the combined two houses, i.e. the whole house of Israel, there has not been a national embracing of the new covenant in Christ that God provided for them - yet.

Christians should be speaking in terms of Salvation - not covenants. The old and new covenants are an Israel issue - not a church issue.

But things got conflated with the advent of the covenant and new covenant theology movements begun in England. So it is a never ending argument and topic in this forum.

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That's confusing because the OP said that no one else has ever shared his view. You seem to be saying it's an old Group A vs Group B argument.

I agree with you that Christians should be speaking in terms of Salvation - not covenants.

Llewelyn Stevenson said:

Actually, you take out a part of the quote in Hebrews and need to read the whole of the three chapters 8, 9 and 10 and you will see that the New Covenant is in force now and we are, in fact, in the NC.

Hebrews 8:6. Christ is the mediator of the NC, not "will be".

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Christ is the testator of the NC and he has died, therefore the NC is in force now.

You will see this continue as you follow on through chapter 10.....

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Good post friend. Let's take a look at the text and the context....

It is the time of reformation, having obtained eternal redemption, a purged conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It is The time of reformation, having obtained eternal redemption, a purged conscience from dead works to serve the living God. By means of death we might receive the promise of the eternal inheritence. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. For all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Remission through The conscience being purged to serve the Living God
.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

It is The time of reformation, having obtained eternal redemption, a purged conscience from dead works to serve the living God. By means of death we might receive the promise of the eternal inheritence. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. For all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Remission through The conscience being purged from dead works to serve the Living God. Now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away (abolish) sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It is The time of reformation, having obtained eternal redemption, a purged conscience from dead works to serve the living God. That by means of death we might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. For all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Remission through The conscience being purged from dead works to serve the Living God. Now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away (abolish) sin by the sacrifice of himself. For the law could never continually make the comers therunto perfect. Because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins, abolish sin, purge the conscience from dead works that we may serve the living God. So He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

It is The time of reformation, having obtained eternal redemption, a purged conscience from dead works to serve the living God. That by means of death we might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. For all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Remission through The conscience being purged from dead works to serve the Living God. Now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away, (abolish) sin by the sacrifice of himself. For the law could never continually make the comers therunto perfect. Because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins, abolish sin, purge the conscience from dead works that we may serve the living God. Therefore He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Sins taken away. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof (ALSO) the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And case it was missed....
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof (ALSO) the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

Douggg said:

Christians should be speaking in terms of Salvation - not covenants. The old and new covenants are an Israel issue - not a church issue.

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Utterly false.

New Testament salvation and the New Testament in His Blood are inextricably intertwined, interrelated, and interdependent.

Old and New Covenant relationships based on faith and obedience are woven throughout the entirety of Scripture.

All of these are inseparable one from another.

As the historical true Church has proclaimed for 1700 years.

MMXX said:

That's confusing because the OP said that no one else has ever shared his view. You seem to be saying it's an old Group A vs Group B argument.

I agree with you that Christians should be speaking in terms of Salvation - not covenants.

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Yes, watch for catch phrases in the posts, and the defining/redefining of Israel. So a person can readily tell which theology the poster holds - which perpetuates this argument.

Also, I made a thread, voluntary participation, which posters can say where they fit in. Please read the first post in the thread to see if you want to participate.

Where do you fit ?

keras said:

As we born again Christians ARE the Israelites of God, Galatians 6:14-16, the New Covenant will be with all who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord, during the test by fire. 1 Peter 4:12

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The New Covenant WAS already made with all who would believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. You need to stop this false teaching. All Christians are saved under the new covenant. It was established by the blood of Christ and His sacrifice long ago and replaced the inferior old covenant and its animal sacrifices which could never take away someone's sins (Hebrews 10:4).

To try to say that the New Covenant is not yet in effect contradicts the entire New Testament and is a terrible insult to what Christ already accomplished long ago. If the new covenant is not yet in effect then we are not saved and our sins are not forgiven. How can you not understand that?

Matthew 26:27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

keras said:

The majority in any issue are like sheep, they don't bother to really think it through properly. They believe the so called experts and go with the flow.
The big joke about the majority was the play 'Fifty million Frenchmen can't be wrong'. But they were!

With this issue of the New Covenant, most have just believed what they have been taught by those who just assumed it was in force after Jesus died. But He is the Mediator, that is the person who intervenes in order to make an agreement.

I have presented many Bible prophesies here, that say the Lord will make a Covenant with His people when they are together in the holy Land. They have been ignored and the only rebuttal has been to appeal to Bible scholars whose opinions on the subject of end times, are suspect and often contradict scripture.
Is that how you and others here want to be? Or would you prefer to be open to the way of knowing what the Lord actually does plan for His Christian people?

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Why do you ignore the entire New Testament, including the book of Hebrews, which teach that the New Covenant was established by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ when He shed His blood?

You think you have the answers and everyone else in the world is wrong. You are so arrogant that it makes me ill. You think God shows you things that He doesn't show anyone else. It's terrible how blind you are about this.

jgr said:

Jesus knew that these prophecies existed (He inspired them), when He extended His New Covenant in His Blood to His disciples, and they believed and received It. (Matthew 26:26-28). Both parties fulfilled their part.

Paul knew that these prophecies existed, when he affirmed that our observance of the Lord's Supper is a reminder and recognition of what Jesus and His disciples fulfilled. (1 Corinthians 11:23-26)

You seem to treat Jesus and Paul as though they don't exist.

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Absolutely. I'll never understand when people try to interpret Old Testament prophecies without the aid of the New Testament. It just makes no sense. It's sad to see.

keras said:

Maybe, but what I have done is proved the NC is not yet and will happen when the elect are all settled into the holy Land.
These prophesies are in everyone's Bibles; all can read them.

You and jgr, seem to treat them as though they don't exist.
We do have an explanation for this inability to understand the prophesies; it is that the Lord has blinded His servants. Isaiah 42:18-20

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It seems to me that you don't believe the New Testament exists. Why do you not allow the New Testament to interpret these prophecies for you? You can make it a lot easier on yourself. Why not trust the interpretations of Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, etc. over your own interpretations of Old Testament prophecies?

keras said:

The majority in any issue are like sheep, they don't bother to really think it through properly. They believe the so called experts and go with the flow.
The big joke about the deceived majority was the play 'Fifty million Frenchmen can't be wrong'. But they were!

With this issue of the New Covenant, most have just believed what they have been taught by those who just assumed it was in force after Jesus died. But He is the Mediator, that is the person who intervenes in order to make an agreement.

I have presented many Bible prophesies here, that say the Lord will make a Covenant with His people when they are together in the holy Land. They have been ignored and the only rebuttal has been to appeal to Bible scholars whose opinions on the subject of end times, are suspect and often contradict scripture.
Is that how you and others here want to be? Or would you prefer to be open to the way of knowing what the Lord actually does plan for His Christian people?

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It is easier to just rely on authority, instead of being Berean about doctrine (Acts 17:11).

keras said:

Three posts of just your opinion.
You are on a par with Trib Signs, for bluff and bluster and learning nasty accusations from jgr.

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I make no apologies for finding it offensive for anyone to suggest that the new covenant is not yet in effect. It shows a lack of understanding of what Christ accomplished with His death and resurrection.

When you or anyone actually presents scriptural rebuttal and addresses the Bible prophesies I have presented, then I will consider it.

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I and others have shown you the truth about the New Covenant from New Testament scripture, but you are stuck in the Old Testament and you do not allow the New Testament to show you what the Old Testament prophecies are really all about. That is your fault.

The Old Testament prophecies are often not fulfilled in the wooden literal sense that you want to interpret them. There's no better example of that then the prophecy in Malachi 4 about the coming of Elijah which turned out to be about John the Baptist. Hyper-literalists like yourself can't accept fulfillments of OT prophecies like that.

But it does seem to me that some people simply don't want to know, they are happy in their beliefs and can't understand any thing else.

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I'm happy with the truth as clearly written in the New Testament, which is that the new covenant was put into effect by the blood of Christ long ago and He made the old covenant obsolete at the same time. Very simple. But, you consistently make what's simple into something convoluted that only you can understand.

For you and those here who have rejected the truths I have posted, Matthew 7:6 applies. But I know there are many 'lurkers' who read the threads on this Forum and my aim is to help them.

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You haven't posted any truths regarding the New Covenant that I've seen.

Spiritual Jew said:

Why do you ignore the entire New Testament, including the book of Hebrews, which teach that the New Covenant was established by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ when He shed His blood?

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And who do you think are the recipients of that New Covenant, are they "spiritual Jews"?