Null/Voided Out
- Thread starter mlepfitjw
- Start date
- Nov 14, 2017
- 9,773
- 5,635
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Others
Whenever the Bible mentions predestination, it is always predestination to be saved. The Bible nowhere teaches that God has preordained or predestined anyone to be lost.
Joshua 24:15
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Predestination in regard to salvation makes love nonexistent ... and this is simply not so.
God is love.
1 John 4:8
Berean Study Bible
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
We have the choice to love or not to love ... plain and simple.
Upvote
0
fhansen
Oldbie
It's both a gift-and a very human choice-and series of choices throughout our lives, with whatever time we're given.
"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Matt 16:24
"Remain in Me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me." “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in Me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15:4-5
Upvote
0
- Oct 7, 2011
- 1,982
- 591
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
I don’t want to sound condescending here. But lol. I’m not sure I have the choice. So... Every page of the Bible is filled with a dozen exhortations, commands, admonition for us to choose to do right and reject doing evil. Not just that but page after page after page listing examples of the consequences for doing right or wrong.
Yet somehow someway. Some people take a half dozen verses out of the Bible’s context to teach we have no real choice. No ability to choose right and wrong? This is the height of the perversion of common sense, reason, logic precisely because it is the rejection of the scripture as a whole on the subject.
Upvote
0
- Jun 23, 2020
- 1,620
- 1,093
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Well I'll be damned, Daniel. Lol.
Fhsansen nice scripture use there. If is a choice word.
eleos1954 nice scripture use there. Choose.
dunricky I can't explain to tired. Though in most of the narratives (come to think of it) it explains who the the elect are for an example : To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia <- 1 Peter.
Fhsansen nice scripture use there. If is a choice word.
eleos1954 nice scripture use there. Choose.
dunricky I can't explain to tired. Though in most of the narratives (come to think of it) it explains who the the elect are for an example : To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia <- 1 Peter.
Upvote
0
- Oct 7, 2011
- 1,982
- 591
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
That’s really not correct. At least in the sense your trying to convey it. When the Bible verses you are referring to talk about predestination. It’s referring to the second covenant as being what has always been predestined from the very start. The reason your conflating salvation with this is because the apostle is showing the saved whom he is speaking to that their salvation is the result of the predestination of the second covenant.
Upvote
0
- Oct 7, 2011
- 1,982
- 591
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Elect in the sense of the Predestination of the second covenant as opposed to the first. That the world has always been predestined to find salvation through the second covenant.
If you want a ton of scripture on the subject. I wrote this over 15 years ago. Usually floats around on the first page of a search. Has been number one periodically.
Bible Symbolism in Genesis
Upvote
0
- Jun 23, 2020
- 1,620
- 1,093
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Not if you're one of His sheep ( John 10:27 ).
They just do it...
Because they are His sheep.
Hello brother Navair2, thank you for sharing! That is true too!
From all the responses, you all seem like pretty interesting people. Bet you all have an interesting story of hardships that you have been through and overcome... sometimes it probably took a little longer but it is good each of you found God somewhere in the span of time we have been living is it not?
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Navair2
May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all
- Nov 18, 2020
- 407
- 215
- 58
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
I see these when I read the Bible:
In Romans 8:29, it is to be conformed to the image of Christ.
In Ephesians 1:5 it is to the believer's adoption as children.
In Ephesians 1:11, it is to the believer's inheritance.
But I see that whenever the Bible mentions election / elect ( 1 Peter 1:2, Titus 1:1, etc ) it is because of a choice God made, and not a choice we as men make.
Romans 9:22.
2 Peter 2:12.
Jude 1:10-13.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
I see it as a predestined thing God has made before we born. Yes we can say well I'm not into this, but He will draw us back because He is a good Shepherd. We just can't quit because it's His plan. If you quit and He can't get you back, well I guess you never was His.
Upvote
0
- Jun 23, 2020
- 1,620
- 1,093
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
That is insightful wisdom, sunshine777 Thank you for your comment sister! Hope you all have a good night!
Upvote
0
- Mar 4, 2005
- 27,852
- 7,970
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Yes.
Yes; I don't believe in predestination.
Yes.
No.
I don't believe that God who made everyone in his image and who is love, would destine some of those he had made in his image, to never know him. And especially not then punish them for rejecting him, when he had already decided, and planned, that they would never be allowed to know him.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
It's complex.
The Bible doesn't say much about Matthew choosing or not.
For me I battled becoming a Christian for 10 years. I didn't want to believe. As I got convinced about the biblical truth about Jesus I wanted to be a Christian and I chose to give my life to Jesus. Where was my choice in all that? Hard to tell. I needed to be convinced that it was true first, to choose Jesus. The evidence had to be strong, since I took all escape routes possible.
A good question is, if someone acknowledges the Bible to be true, could he still choose to not become a Christian?
Upvote
0
HappyHope
Well-Known Member
- Jul 22, 2019
- 643
- 523
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
People love to debate doctrines involving predestination. It is an ancient argument. In cases like these, I first look at Scripture to interpret Scripture and then I look to my own experience for any personal insight in my faith journey.
I believe we all have a choice, but God already knows our choices ahead of time. He is so good. Even knowing who will reject or abandon the faith or just lead self destructive lives for a time, He still reaches out. It is who he is. He can’t deny himself. Knowing everything ahead of time he still reaches out knowing our response. This is not to say there isn’t a line we can’t cross. There are all sorts of lines and consequences. The choices are ours. From Adam down to us, we all have choices to do right by the Lord (and consequently ourselves) or not.
Upvote
0
John Mullally
Well-Known Member
- Aug 5, 2020
- 2,374
- 820
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Charismatic
- Marital Status
- Married
Matthew made the choice to follow. The Rich Young Ruler who was also called did not.
From the receiver's point of view, Acts 2:38-39 makes the discussion of predestination a moot point - as genuine repentance and baptism is all Peter called for to be saved. Note that the Holy Spirit did not lead Peter, Philip, or Paul to introduce predestination in any Gospel presentation in the book of Acts.
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
In 2 Corinthians 4 we see that it is the devil (i.e. the god of this age), not God God, that works to keep people from understanding and receiving the Gospel:
2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
timothyu
Well-Known Member
- Dec 31, 2018
- 22,521
- 8,425
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
We have a choice what to accept or what to reject. Jesus made it clear, as does the entire Bible, that we are to choose the self serving ways of man (as Eve once did) or choose the will of God (as Jesus did in never putting His will ahead of the will of the Father.) That basically sums up the whole thing.
All people through various ways, from outside teachings to self introspect, can come to understand the difference and make a choice. Jesus' first followers were not even deep into the Jewish 'religion' but were simply oppressed and saw the causes of their oppression and dreamt of a what if situation for a way out. These were women, servants and slaves familiar with oppression. However, until they heard Jesus proclaim it, it was only a dream, not a reality that a way out had been created as told in the Gospel of the Kingdom.
But these people and many before no doubt had already condemned the self serving ways of man without even having heard of an option. They had repented without reward. What does that say of people today who know of the reward but are still hesitant to reject the self serving ways of man.
BUT... were they predestined to feel this way or did their situation create a longing for another way, such as the counter-culture of the Kingdom that Jesus offered. Was God even on their radar? Who knows? Speaking for myself, the farthest back I can remember being curious about God was about four years old thanks to Christmas. That was long before (although already practised as seen in era Christmas carols) it became politically incorrect to discriminate between various types of celebration. People were content with a blend.
That beginning has lead to decades and decades of seeking God, going through all the angles from reverse engineering Him to seeing how the world as a whole sought Him out, how He related to humans, and what He meant to the world of man. Religion played little part after the early Sunday school days which taught basics with out any nourishment. Too much do as we say and not as we do. The search was for God and not the details of self serving religious institutions that were more concerned about retaining followers to their particular agenda and following their rules, than teaching what the oppressed of Jesus' time already knew. Oppressors teaching the oppressed, blind leading the blind.
Was that search predestined? Has all I have learned and all I have rejected been part of my pre-destiny? Is the continual desire to still learn choice or controlled? Was the search itself predestined but the outcome unknown regardless? Who knows? It's not up to us to determine our predestiny. I fear far too many use the concept to solidify their simply human and fallible views. I'm just enjoying the ride and have no idea whether my name is in the book of life. One thing I have learned is ultimately, it is not about me. It is about God telling us in no uncertain terms that He will have His will done ahead of ours at some point soon, whether we like it or not.
All people through various ways, from outside teachings to self introspect, can come to understand the difference and make a choice. Jesus' first followers were not even deep into the Jewish 'religion' but were simply oppressed and saw the causes of their oppression and dreamt of a what if situation for a way out. These were women, servants and slaves familiar with oppression. However, until they heard Jesus proclaim it, it was only a dream, not a reality that a way out had been created as told in the Gospel of the Kingdom.
But these people and many before no doubt had already condemned the self serving ways of man without even having heard of an option. They had repented without reward. What does that say of people today who know of the reward but are still hesitant to reject the self serving ways of man.
BUT... were they predestined to feel this way or did their situation create a longing for another way, such as the counter-culture of the Kingdom that Jesus offered. Was God even on their radar? Who knows? Speaking for myself, the farthest back I can remember being curious about God was about four years old thanks to Christmas. That was long before (although already practised as seen in era Christmas carols) it became politically incorrect to discriminate between various types of celebration. People were content with a blend.
That beginning has lead to decades and decades of seeking God, going through all the angles from reverse engineering Him to seeing how the world as a whole sought Him out, how He related to humans, and what He meant to the world of man. Religion played little part after the early Sunday school days which taught basics with out any nourishment. Too much do as we say and not as we do. The search was for God and not the details of self serving religious institutions that were more concerned about retaining followers to their particular agenda and following their rules, than teaching what the oppressed of Jesus' time already knew. Oppressors teaching the oppressed, blind leading the blind.
Was that search predestined? Has all I have learned and all I have rejected been part of my pre-destiny? Is the continual desire to still learn choice or controlled? Was the search itself predestined but the outcome unknown regardless? Who knows? It's not up to us to determine our predestiny. I fear far too many use the concept to solidify their simply human and fallible views. I'm just enjoying the ride and have no idea whether my name is in the book of life. One thing I have learned is ultimately, it is not about me. It is about God telling us in no uncertain terms that He will have His will done ahead of ours at some point soon, whether we like it or not.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Nov 25, 2017
- 4,861
- 1,022
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Study John 17. The Greek word for 'apostle' means to be 'sent'. Not everyone is an Apostle. There has to be a leadership, and at Jesus' 1st coming there was, His Apostles He chose that were 'sent' into the world just as He was. Within Lord Jesus' prayer in John 17, He defines two groups, the first group being those who are chosen sent ones, and then the other group being those who believe by hearing their preaching of The Gospel (the other disciples, and us).
There are still chosen ones today that are 'sent', but not in the same sense as Christ's Apostles at His 1st coming.
Upvote
0
