May God "Violate" Your "Freewill"?

Butterball1 · Jan 23, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
butter

I dont believe that. Paul made a distinction between the chosen in Israel and the rest Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Now it would be unreasonable to say the whole nation was the election, when its a clear distinction being made !

Under the OT law of Moses, Jews by the physical birth were God's elect. But after Christ came with His NT and the Jews rejected Christ and God rejected the Jews, those Jews that became Christians under the NT are of God's elect. The NT requiring a spiritual birth rather than a physical birth to be of God's elect.

The verse you cite Romans 11:7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

"Israel" refers to fleshly Israel sought to obtain God's favor but did not find for they went about following their own traditions (own righteousness) rather then submit to God's righteousness (Romans 10:3) hence they were lost Romans 10:1. Most fleshly Israel refused to obey the gospel Rom 10:16 leaving them unelect while those Jews that did obey the gospel were grafted in again to God's elect.

So the distinction between Israel" and "the election" is "Israel" refers to fleshly Israel that did not obey Christ's NT gospel. "The election" referring to Christians which were those remnant Jews that did obey the gospel. The "rest were hardened" refers to the whole nation of fleshly Israel after the separation of the election (Christians) from fleshly Israel.

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

TedT said:
It is certainly not loving, righteous nor just.

Thats your opinion, and you are standing in Judgment against God !

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

Fervent said:
Causing someone else to sin is in fact sin, especially if the one who commits the sin has no choice but to commit the sin.

I would be careful with statements like that.

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

Butterball1 said:
God will not violate man's free will, as Pharoah, causing man to sin then God punishes that man for the sin God forced that man to commit against his own will...not in God's perfect, just nature to do such.

Mans will means nothing to God in comparison to His will Dan 4:35
35 and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Under the OT law of Moses, Jews by the physical birth were God's elect. But after Christ came with His NT and the Jews rejected Christ and God rejected the Jews, those Jews that became Christians under the NT are of God's elect. The NT requiring a spiritual birth rather than a physical birth to be of God's elect.

The verse you cite Romans 11:7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

"Israel" refers to fleshly Israel sought to obtain God's favor but did not find for they went about following their own traditions (own righteousness) rather then submit to God's righteousness (Romans 10:3) hence they were lost Romans 10:1. Most fleshly Israel refused to obey the gospel Rom 10:16 leaving them unelect while those Jews that did obey the gospel were grafted in again to God's elect.

So the distinction between Israel" and "the election" is "Israel" refers to fleshly Israel that did not obey Christ's NT gospel. "The election" referring to Christians which were those remnant Jews that did obey the gospel. The "rest were hardened" refers to the whole nation of fleshly Israel after the separation of the election (Christians) from fleshly Israel.

All jews were not elect of God, election isnt based upon race.

Fervent · Jan 23, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
I would be careful with statements like that.

I see no reason not to make such statements. Making someone else sin turns the individual into nothing more than a tool and agency lies with the effective cause. Tools are not culpable, so making someone else sin is equivalent to committing the sin yourself.

TedT · Jan 23, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Thats your opinion, and you are standing in Judgment against God !

Technically I m dismissing your doctrine as false but since you obviously believe you speak for GOD I can see why you would be misled to think I am against HIM.

TedT · Jan 23, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
I would be careful with statements like that.

You are careful with such things because your false theology says GOD creates the evil men do and then forces them to do it...making GOD a sinner which you must then deny. Ahhhh welll, doublethink rescues us all from cognitive dissonance.

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

Fervent said:
I see no reason not to make such statements. Making someone else sin turns the individual into nothing more than a tool and agency lies with the effective cause. Tools are not culpable, so making someone else sin is equivalent to committing the sin yourself.

I must say, you are bold in that accusation against God ! God Himself doesnt sin !

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

TedT said:
Technically I m dismissing your doctrine as false but since you obviously believe you speak for GOD I can see why you would be misled to think I am against HIM.

Yes I believe that !

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

TedT said:
You are careful with such things because your false theology says GOD creates the evil men do and then forces them to do it...making GOD a sinner which you must then deny. Ahhhh welll, doublethink rescues us all from cognitive dissonance.

False accusation, I never said God sinned !

Fervent · Jan 23, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
I must say, you are bold in that accusation against God ! God Himself doesnt sin !

I make no accusation against God, at least not the real God. A god that wills men to sin? That false god I certainly accuse as the idol that it is.

bling · Jan 23, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
bling

Thats not scriptural. All are born sinners, unclean ? Job 14:4

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Job 15:14

What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Job 25:4

How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

I have not had anyone try to use “Job” to explain babies being sinners, so let’s get the context:

Job 14 is Job himself speaking and as we can read in other places Job opens his mouth and show his lack of understanding. Job 15 is Eliphaz the Temanite is speaking and he lacks Spiritual wisdom even more then Job.

Read the first part of Job 14: Mortals, born of woman, are of few days and full of trouble. 2 They spring up like flowers and wither away; like fleeting shadows, they do not endure.

This is very poetic but as Job points out we start out wonderful and pure like a flower, but soon wither and do not endure (the “few days” would be figurative, since we are comparing a human life to a flower).

In the context it is all about a full-grown man “Job”, so the “man” is referring to a fully grown man and not a new born. Yes, all adults will never continue to be like the beautiful flower of their childhood and are withered and in trouble.

Eliphaz the Temanite is talking about humans (born of woman) and not God or as he asks: “Are you the first man ever born?”

Job 25 is the unwise Bildad the Shuhite speaking. He is not talking about the condition od a newborn, but the condition of a mature adult like Job.

Brightfame52 said:

Isa 48:8

Click to expand...

Brightfame52 said:
Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Again, You have a very poetic passage from Isaiah. Is. 48: 8 You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ears have not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are , you were called a rebel from birth.

The Old Testament is full of hyperboles and even Jesus would use them so using this writing style saying someone was a “rebel from birth” just conveys the idea he was rebelliously disobedient as soonas he could be, but a new born baby is not that way

Brightfame52 said:

Ps 58:3

Click to expand...

Brightfame52 said:
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Again another excellent example of the use of hyperboles, a ne born baby cannot speak.

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

double post

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

Fervent said:
I make no accusation against God, at least not the real God. A god that wills men to sin? That false god I certainly accuse as the idol that it is.

I'm afraid you do

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2021

bling said:
I have not had anyone try to use “Job” to explain babies being sinners, so let’s get the context:

Job 14 is Job himself speaking and as we can read in other places Job opens his mouth and show his lack of understanding. Job 15 is Eliphaz the Temanite is speaking and he lacks Spiritual wisdom even more then Job.

Read the first part of Job 14: Mortals, born of woman, are of few days and full of trouble. 2 They spring up like flowers and wither away; like fleeting shadows, they do not endure.

This is very poetic but as Job points out we start out wonderful and pure like a flower, but soon wither and do not endure (the “few days” would be figurative, since we are comparing a human life to a flower).

In the context it is all about a full-grown man “Job”, so the “man” is referring to a fully grown man and not a new born. Yes, all adults will never continue to be like the beautiful flower of their childhood and are withered and in trouble.

Eliphaz the Temanite is talking about humans (born of woman) and not God or as he asks: “Are you the first man ever born?”

Job 25 is the unwise Bildad the Shuhite speaking. He is not talking about the condition od a newborn, but the condition of a mature adult like Job.

Again, You have a very poetic passage from Isaiah. Is. 48: 8 You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ears have not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are , you were called a rebel from birth.

The Old Testament is full of hyperboles and even Jesus would use them so using this writing style saying someone was a “rebel from birth” just conveys the idea he was rebelliously disobedient as soonas he could be, but a new born baby is not that way

Again another excellent example of the use of hyperboles, a ne born baby cannot speak.

Okay, but I rest my case, you attempt to explain away the truth.

Fervent · Jan 23, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
I'm afraid you do

Not at all, the true God is perfectly just and the unjust creation you present is nothing more than an idol created out of human philosophy.

TedT · Jan 24, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
False accusation, I never said God sinned !

Of course you didn't - you re-defined your words by theo-babble to avoid that even though that is exactly what your doctrine means...

Brightfame52 · Jan 24, 2021

Fervent said:
Not at all, the true God is perfectly just and the unjust creation you present is nothing more than an idol created out of human philosophy.

The True God is just, even though He cares less about mans will when it comes to His wiill Dan 4:35

35 and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Brightfame52 · Jan 24, 2021

TedT said:
Of course you didn't - you re-defined your words by theo-babble to avoid that even though that is exactly what your doctrine means...

God purposed that men sin. He purposed that Adam sinned. Gods Purpose is the Author of sin, He authored it into His world for a specific purpose !

May God "Violate" Your "Freewill"?

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