Is there a logical reason God allowed Satan to have authority?

pittsburghjoe said:

Does Satan remain an angel after he hands off his authority? I am not concerned with the beast being a man or a government.

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Luke 10:16-22

(P.S. Satan handed nothing off, He was defeated and thrown out...)

pittsburghjoe said:

Of course Jesus has top authority of everything ..but you don't get to pretend Satan doesn't have authority right now on Earth until he is dethroned.

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He only has authority where we give it to him. His only authority is hijacked authority.

pittsburghjoe said:

Does Satan remain an angel after he hands off his authority?

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I'm not sure what you mean here. Satan is granted authority, meaning he never had it until it is given. Satan is a created being, not God, and must be given permission as @Toro has explained.

pittsburghjoe said:

Satan has authority because he is going to fight to keep disorder/sin from getting back into heaven. His pride wants every person possible.

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If evil did not have a single locus, people would sin all the more.

As it is, they work to earn the chance, to add one sin after another.

The downside of adding one sin after the other, is that it is harder to pull off, the upside is that it is more pleasurable.

pittsburghjoe said:

... he is going to fight to keep disorder/sin from getting back into heaven

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I don't think you understand what Heaven is, if you think that sin can exist there.

pittsburghjoe said:

Revelation 13:2

The Dragon (Satan) give his authority to the Beast.

But it doesn't say what happens to the Dragon after doing so.

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Yes, but I'm saying that he didn't just magically have that authority to begin with.
Satan is just playing Jesus Christ. That's it - which is why he is called the False Messiah/Anti-Christ.

If you read further in Revelation, it will become more clear what happens to the Beast/Dragon

pittsburghjoe said:

To keep the idea of disorder from resurfacing.

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Sin cannot exist in the presence of God. Not does not exist but cannot exist.

Darkness flees in the presence of the light...

pittsburghjoe said:

Do you understand that we are in a reality of the fallen? Satan can whisper in Hitler's ear in his own inner voice. We know Satan is a thing and can tell him to buzz off ..but imagine what he is able to do to people that just consider it their own thoughts?

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A thought doesn't always have to become a word and/or deed. Temptation exists, yes, but one has free will whether to act on it or not.

pittsburghjoe said:

Of course Jesus has top authority of everything ..but you don't get to pretend Satan doesn't have authority right now on Earth until he is dethroned.

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The devil never had any kind of legitimate "authority". And the devil has been "dethroned", that happened two thousand years ago on the cross and empty tomb. Christ is risen, and that means sin, death, hell, and the devil are defeated.

The devil is bound, crushed underneath the feet of the Crucified Lord.

This is a traditional Christian icon, The Anastasis (Greek for "The Resurrection") and it shows Christ in Hades with the doors of Hades broken down under His feet, with the devil bound and crushed beneath Him. Christ as the victorious One lifts Adam and Eve from their sarcophagi, and on His right and left are all the Old Testament saints. This is the "Harrowing of Hell", Christ's descent into "hell" (Hades) and the overthrow of death and the devil.



-CryptoLutheran

Hazelelponi said:

Sin cannot exist in the presence of God. Not does not exist but cannot exist.

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This is a thing that gets said a lot--but if this were true, then what do we do with the Incarnation? God become man and coming down literally into the midst of a sinful humanity and world?

Or what do we do with the doctrine of God's omnipresence?

Sin does exist in God's presence, and it is precisely God's presence in the midst of sin, and His loving grace toward sinners, that is the redemption and healing of the world through Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

This is a thing that gets said a lot--but if this were true, then what do we do with the Incarnation? God become man and coming down literally into the midst of a sinful humanity and world?

Or what do we do with the doctrine of God's omnipresence?

Sin does exist in God's presence, and it is precisely God's presence in the midst of sin, and His loving grace toward sinners, that is the redemption and healing of the world through Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

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when Jesus consummates His Kingdom He puts an end to all darkness.

Romans 13:12

There will be no evil in heaven.

pittsburghjoe said:

1/3 of the angels found a way to do it.

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And what happened? They were removed for their transgressions.. and will be thrown for all eternity into the lake of fire.

All souls that will exist in heaven will have already through the faith given us chosen the things of God...

No one's going to say they changed their mind.

pittsburghjoe said:

Does anyone here know what the Book of Revelation is?

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I think it's safe to say that you take a particular Futurist interpretation of the Revelation--but this is hardly the universal understanding within Christianity. And arguably, it isn't even the most standard interpretation.

There are four approaches to St. John's Apocalypse (the more historic and traditional name for the book):

1: Futurist - the text chiefly describes events that are still yet future, specifically, it concerns the final days of history just before the consummation of all things.

2: Historicist - the text chiefly describes events that have been ongoing and unfolding throughout history since the writing of the text. Ultimately history will reach its conclusion and consummation with the coming of Christ and the renewal of all creation.

3: Preterist - the text chiefly describes events that were happening during John's own time, and thus the book is historical, but still points to God's victory in Christ and the ultimate victory of God at the conclusion and consummation of history.

4: Idealist - the text chiefly describes not particular historical events but broader concepts that are relevant in any time and place, and so these things apply to John's time, but can also apply to any time in history--ultimately pointing to the hope of that future world at the conclusion and consummation of history.

And these four approaches aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

I take an approach to the Apocalypse that is influenced by both Preterist and Idealist readings. St. John's chief concern was the oppression of the Roman Empire against the Church, and so the visions he receives on Patmos deal with the very real things going on in John's own time. As such, I identify the Beast of Revelation ch. 13 with Emperor Nero whose name fits the number which John gives us (six hundred and sixty-six); but it isn't strictly Nero, but rather Roman power more broadly. Which is why when John speaks about Babylon, he means the city of Rome, and the multi-headed beast with the color of the imperial purple is the imperial power of Rome--the text even tells us that the harlot is a city on seven hills, and the heads of the beast are a succession of rulers. But even though that is the historical context and the immediate meaning, the text's themes are meaningful beyond history: as Christians living in this world, under the oppressive powers of this world, we have our hope set upon Jesus Christ who already has won the victory, as He who has defeated Hades and holds the keys, and we look forward to that Day when Christ returns and God makes all things new.

The devil is defeated, he was defeated two thousand years ago. And God's victory is both here and now through grace, as we have victory in Christ over sin, death, hell, and the devil even though we live in a fallen age that is perishing. But that's just it, it is perishing, and the hope and promise of life is ours by the grace of God, calling us to look with faith, hope, and love toward the great Day of God in which the fullness of victory shall be--Christ shall return, the dead shall be raised, and there shall be the renewal of all creation.

As Christ our Lord has taught us to pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" this prayer is a prayer for God's kingdom and will to happen here, both now and also in fullness in the Age to Come.

God's kingdom is here and now through the Church, even as Christ rules and reigns from heaven at the right hand of the Father--a kingdom not of power and might, but the kingdom of grace. The Church is God's Colony, the staking-claim of God upon His creation through Christ. And the day will come when at Christ's return in glory, that the fullness of His kingdom shall come and be manifest upon the earth--at the marriage of heaven and earth, and the glory and light of God fills all of creation, and God is, in the words of St. Paul, "all in all"--or as St. John says in his Apocalypse, that there is no need for temple or sun or moon, for the light of God shall fill all things, God shall dwell with His people, and He shall be their God and they will be His people. Unto the ages of ages.

As the vanguard of hope in a hopeless world, we preach the Crucified and Risen Christ, and preach the hope of the resurrection. That what God has done for Jesus, He will do for the whole world. God's word to the universe is life. And it is life that wins, that was God's declaration when He invaded the world through Christ, the cross, and the empty tomb, and it is the truth and reality that shall be manifest in all things when God makes all things new. For the day will come when death shall be no more, for the dead shall rise bodily and gloriously, and God shall renew the heavens and the earth--the former way of things shall be no more, and God shall set all of creation to rights. Life everlasting in that Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran

pittsburghjoe said:

Revelation 13:2

The Dragon (Satan) gives his authority to the Beast.

But it doesn't say what happens to the Dragon after doing so.

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Yes, St. John identifies the devil as the power behind the machinations of the Beast. But it is precisely the fact that the devil is defeated that we not need to fear the devil or any worldly power. That is why Christ our Lord has said, "In this world you will have tribulation, but be courageous, I have conquered the world."

Recall also what St. Paul says in Romans ch. 8, that we are "Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." and also "Greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the world."

We are living in the time of "birth pangs", language describing how the present age in its suffering is that which gives birth to the new world. So this age is perishing, falling away--and the one that sought to be ruler of this present age has been undone, the devil has been defeated, Christ has risen. And so, because the devil "knows his time is short" he wails and lashes out, like a dying frightened animal. But as we Lutherans sing in one of our most cherished hymns:

"And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim, we tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him."

The one little word is simply the truth, as Luther writes, simply call the devil to his face and he has lost all power.

"For all such books written against me, even if there were as many as thousands of them written every day and every hour, are very easily refuted with the single word, 'Devil, you lie,' just as that haughty beggar Dr. Luther sings so proudly and boldly in those words of his hymn, 'One little word shall fell him.'" - Martin Luther, Against Hanswurst

What power can the devil have against us, when Christ is for us?

-CryptoLutheran