The Mark of the Beast

rturner76 said:

Seriously, I thought of this also. I thought, what if people who get vaccinated get a mark put on them proving they are vaccinated. Then, what if only people with the mark showing they are vaccinated are allowed to buy and sell at the store? People without the vaccine mark may be outcast and forced out of society to fend for themselves.

Just a thought I had during one of my daydreams.

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I had that thought too, but then I learned that the book of Revelation was written to warn of the events of the first century AD, so I'm not worried about it anymore.

Freedm said:

Without sin, there's no need for grace.

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True, and Jesus did say that He didn’t come to call the righteous, But sinners, [to repentance] ? So how many times can we sin after receiving His grace?

Freedm said:

Yes. It has to be because our free will is eternal.

Jesus never said "follow me and you'll never do anything wrong again". He said "follow me and your sins will be forgiven".

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He said ‘go and sin no more’!

Psalm 27 said:

He said ‘go and sin no more’!

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Yes, ideally, but can that be guaranteed? Obviously not.

parousia70 said:

You are an annihilationist then?
You don’t believe in eternal conscious punishment for the damned?

Maybe you can explain for us when you believe the unrepentant get to share in Christ’s victory over sin?

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What does punishment have to do with the cessation of sin?

Is sin in the NHNE? Why?

Freedm said:

Yes. It has to be because our free will is eternal.

Jesus never said "follow me and you'll never do anything wrong again". He said "follow me and your sins will be forgiven".

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Yes, while living in sinful corruptible flesh.

Then one of God's attributes is sin, in your theology?

Our free will is immaterial to creation. So is sin. Until Adam, sin was not even a thing. Why would it remain a thing? If Adam still lived and still never ate, we would be living in the Garden free from sin and still have free will to do anything but eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Free will is not dependent on sin. We were never told what would happen if others ate, but not Adam. Adam would still recommend people not to touch it, much less eat it. They may slip it into his food, to trick him, no? How else do you test a free will theory?

We do not know if free will is eternal. God calls us His slaves. Slaves by definition have limited free will if any at all. Free will is still limited. You cannot walk into the sun, even if you willed to. Every step you take keeps your feet on earth and does not let you walk on air. Then at a certain altitude you could no longer breath, if you could walk on air. It is possible to launch yourself into the sun with a rocket, but that is not walking into the sun.

Paul clearly states that sin entered the world by one man. This means sin can also exit the world, if God removes sin. Sin is still in the world.

Freedm said:

But it doesn't say that it's the end of sin. You're inferring that all by yourself. It says God's plan will be brought to completion. What do you think God's plan is?

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To redeem all who will. Then remove sin.

Some posters here claim sin was removed from this world at the Cross. John in Revelation, claims the plan is not complete until the 7th Trumpet.

Jesus said "go and sin no more".
(The Lamb of God, who take away the sins of the world)

He took (past) our infirmities at the cross, but delivers (future) us from evil.

We have an advocate with The Father, Jesus Christ, The righteous.

But this isn't an excuse to sin more from now on

Timtofly said:

What does punishment have to do with the cessation of sin?

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If your position has the unrepentant suffering in their sin forever, how you you claim sin ends?

Maybe your objection has more to do with the eternal "location" of sin and suffering than with it's eternal existence?

Is sin in the NHNE? Why?

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Isaiah sure seemed to think so, maybe you can ask him why he speaks of Sinners in the New H&E?:

Isaiah 65:17-20

17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

parousia70 said:

If your position has the unrepentant suffering in their sin forever, how you you claim sin ends?

Maybe your objection has more to do with the eternal "location" of sin and suffering than with it's eternal existence?



Isaiah sure seemed to think so, maybe you can ask him why he speaks of Sinners in the New H&E?:

Isaiah 65:17-20

17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

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I never claimed one is sinning eternally. Punishment is not getting to enjoy sin eternally. Punishment and sin are not the same thing. Adam's punishment was labor. Sin is doing that which takes away that labor allegedly. The labor is never removed, but sin attempts to make the labor less of a punishment. In all cases sin just binds a person even more and removes all liberty.


Since Isaiah is talking about the restoration of the 1000 year reign of Christ and not a new reality, I would agree with John in Revelation 21 and 22, those who enjoy sin are outside of reality in the Lake of Fire.

Since you are the one who points out words and their meanings, you tell me what being a "sinner" in that context means.

Timtofly said:

I never claimed one is sinning eternally. Punishment is not getting to enjoy sin eternally. Punishment and sin are not the same thing. Adam's punishment was labor. Sin is doing that which takes away that labor allegedly. The labor is never removed, but sin attempts to make the labor less of a punishment. In all cases sin just binds a person even more and removes all liberty.

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Sin is a state of being we are all born into. It requires no "action" or "sinful act" on our part. We are born into it, and no amount of our "not sinning" can remove us from that state.
Only By Grace through faith are we removed. Our individual Sins have nothing to do with whether or not we are "in Sin".

Since Isaiah is talking about the restoration of the 1000 year reign of Christ and not a new reality,

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How do you get that from that passage?

Lets take another look:

7“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

Please show us where Isaiah is NOT talking about the New Heavens and earth period, and instead is talking about something other than what He wrote?

I would agree with John in Revelation 21 and 22, those who enjoy sin are outside of reality in the Lake of Fire.

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Rather, the text says they are Outside of the gates of the city, on the new earth. I would agree.

Since you are the one who points out words and their meanings, you tell me what being a "sinner" in that context means.

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Same as It means today.

Again, 2 separate topics:
1) the State of Sin we are all born into, that none of our works placed us into, and none of our works can likewise remove us from.

2) our individual transgressions (sins) that are totally powerless today, and cannot prevent us from being saved. The Power of individual Sins to prevent salvation has been completely eradicated from the face of the earth forever.

parousia70 said:

Sin is a state of being we are all born into. It requires no "action" or "sinful act" on our part. We are born into it, and no amount of our "not sinning" can remove us from that state.
Only By Grace through faith are we removed. Our individual Sins have nothing to do with whether or not we are "in Sin".



How do you get that from that passage?

Lets take another look:

7“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

Please show us where Isaiah is NOT talking about the New Heavens and earth period, and instead is talking about something other than what He wrote?



Rather, the text says they are Outside of the gates of the city, on the new earth. I would agree.



Same as It means today.

Again, 2 separate topics:
1) the State of Sin we are all born into, that none of our works placed us into, and none of our works can likewise remove us from.

2) our individual transgressions (sins) that are totally powerless today, and cannot prevent us from being saved. The Power of individual Sins to prevent salvation has been completely eradicated from the face of the earth forever.

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Actually "a sinner" is the state after physical death.

That is why Isaiah is not talking about a new reality. Death is still not finished.

Isaiah is pointing out that a person born in the millennium is not a sinner until after physical death. The iron rod will still put humans to death. Those physically dead, are the cursed, a sinner, and their name instantly removed from the Lamb's book of life. Being a sinner is not a result of being born. It is the result of being condemned to physical death.

Death is the last enemy defeated at the end of this 1000 year reign of Christ that is physical. No one will naturally die. But Death is the result of an individual who rebels against the iron rule.

Timtofly said:

Actually "a sinner" is the state after physical death.

That is why Isaiah is not talking about a new reality. Death is still not finished.

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It's not?
So even though Isaiah SAYS He is speaking about the New Heavens and earth Period, he doesn't MEAN it?

What else do you believe Isaiah SAID that he didn't MEAN?

Isaiah is pointing out that a person born in the millennium is not a sinner until after physical death.

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"But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed."
Nothing about being Dead in that.

Being a sinner is not a result of being born. It is the result of being condemned to physical death.

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We are not Born Sinners?

Death is the last enemy defeated at the end of this 1000 year reign of Christ that is physical. No one will naturally die. But Death is the result of an individual who rebels against the iron rule.

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So this is NOT a present reality?:

John 11:26
"And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

parousia70 said:

It's not?
So even though Isaiah SAYS He is speaking about the New Heavens and earth Period, he doesn't MEAN it?

What else do you believe Isaiah SAID that he didn't MEAN?


"But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed."
Nothing about being Dead in that.



We are not Born Sinners?



So this is NOT a present reality?:

John 11:26
"And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

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There is no death in the NHNE. Mentioning death at all, places Isaiah in the millennium where his prophecy fits.


Why do you conflate universalism into your interpretation?

Those in Christ never die and can never be resurrected. Even you deny this, so stop pretending what is and what is not death.

In the millennium upon the physical punishment of death, one becomes a sinner, separated eternally from God. That is the punishment of rebellion. Rebellion is not because of sin or a sin nature. Rebellion is questioning, "why all the rules?" Those who refuse God's Law are in rebellion to God. They will be punished with death and become a sinner. NO, this is not the current rule, because Jesus Christ is not physically ruling yet. It is also not the NHNE, because Death will be defeated and no longer be a phenomenon at all.

Timtofly said:

Yes, while living in sinful corruptible flesh.

Then one of God's attributes is sin, in your theology?

Our free will is immaterial to creation. So is sin. Until Adam, sin was not even a thing. Why would it remain a thing? If Adam still lived and still never ate, we would be living in the Garden free from sin and still have free will to do anything but eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Free will is not dependent on sin. We were never told what would happen if others ate, but not Adam. Adam would still recommend people not to touch it, much less eat it. They may slip it into his food, to trick him, no? How else do you test a free will theory?

We do not know if free will is eternal. God calls us His slaves. Slaves by definition have limited free will if any at all. Free will is still limited. You cannot walk into the sun, even if you willed to. Every step you take keeps your feet on earth and does not let you walk on air. Then at a certain altitude you could no longer breath, if you could walk on air. It is possible to launch yourself into the sun with a rocket, but that is not walking into the sun.

Paul clearly states that sin entered the world by one man. This means sin can also exit the world, if God removes sin. Sin is still in the world.

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Is not sin disobeying God?

Timtofly said:

To redeem all who will. Then remove sin.

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To remove sin? Or forgive sin?

Timtofly said:

There is no death in the NHNE. Mentioning death at all, places Isaiah in the millennium where his prophecy fits.

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So even though Isaiah clearly indicates there are sinners in the NHNE, you're telling us that he didn't really mean that? You think he mis-spoke?

Freedm said:

Is not sin disobeying God?

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Sin is the free will ability not to obey God.

What is disobeying God? Romans 5:12-14

12 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned.
13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah.
14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command.

When Christ is present physically that would be disobeying God. We are not even under the Law. Yet sin is very much present in the world.

Rebellion is violating a direct command from God. Rebellion is not exactly sin. All would be considered in Rebellion to God because the flesh can only sin. Even without a Law, the flesh would choose to rebel against God. The flesh has the freedom to do so. Yet that ability is what sends us to eternal separation from God. Accepting the Atonement is not stopping sin. It is not being held accountable for one's sins.

If you remove the ability to sin, you are not taking away the Law, nor rebellion. That would remove the ability to think on one's own ability. God is not turning humans into programmed robots. Now the glorified church may be a different matter altogether. Being God would remove the ability to know evil. We will not understand the meaning of doing wrong. Making a wrong or rebellious choice would be impossible. Unless like Adam God sets up an action to avoid, that would bring about a change. That would lead to the death of whoever was tasked with that job.

Freedm said:

To remove sin? Or forgive sin?

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You asked what the 7th Trumpet completes. It completes the Atonement. No more Atonement. It stops sin, no more sin. It is the end of Adam's condition permanently.

The millennium reign will have nothing whatsoever to do with Adam, sin, punishment, nor Atonement.

It will be the direct Law of the Lord God on earth.