Does turning my lights on violate the sabbath?

LoveGodsWord · Jan 23, 2021

DamianWarS said:
Rom 3:4 is context for Jews not gentiles and your intended purpose is obfuscated. if you want to see the context for gentiles go down to vs 27-31 where it says gentiles are not under the law of works as Jews are but under the law of faith and it is through this faith (for the gentile), not works, the law is upheld. The verses you quote are unclear and just create confusion. I mean Acts 2:29 "We must obey God rather than man" what is your purpose in quoting this? You're conflating liberally anything that speaks of commandments or obedience to God as in compliance with the letter of the law but missing the due diligence. they are just verses with arbitrary lines drawn back to the law and it's not a position I can respect as it is not articulated. I get your goal but your sources don't match.

I do not judge you dear friend. I have only shared God's Word with you. Romans 3:4 says, God forbid: yes, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged. So what are you trying to say here? Are you seriously trying to argue that this scripture is not true and does not mean only God's Word is true and if our words do not agree with God's Word those who disagree with God's Word are not lying? You say that these Words of God's in Romans 3:4 are only for the Jews. Yet God's Word not mine says that all these things are written for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come *1 Corinthians 10:11 and that "All" scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." - 2 Timothy 3:16. So who should I believe; you or God when God's Word tells me His Words are written for me? Then you say what was the purpose in quoting Acts of the Apostles 5:29? The reason why both Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29 were quoted was in support of me saying; "only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them." Romans 3:4 shows only God's Word is truth and Acts of the Apostles 5:29 shows that we ought to obey and follow what God says. I thought those supporting scriptures are rather clear. I am sorry you did not understand why they were shared with you.

DamianWarS · Jan 23, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I do not judge you dear friend. I have only shared God's Word with you. Romans 3:4 says, God forbid: yes, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged. So what are you trying to say here? Are you seriously trying to argue that this scripture is not true and does not mean only God's Word is true and if our words do not agree with God's Word those who disagree with God's Word are not lying? You say that these Words of God's in Romans 3:4 are only for the Jews. Yet God's Word not mine says that all these things are written for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come *1 Corinthians 10:11 and that "All" scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." - 2 Timothy 3:16. So who should I believe; you or God when God's Word tells me His Words are written for me? Then you say what was the purpose in quoting Acts of the Apostles 5:29? The reason why both Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29 were quoted was in support of me saying; "only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them." Romans 3:4 shows only God's Word is truth and Acts of the Apostles 5:29 shows that we ought to obey and follow what God says. I thought those supporting scriptures are rather clear. I am sorry you did not understand why they were shared with you.

You seem unwilling to enter into any depth on this and when challenged say I'm rejecting God's word so I don't see how this can reasonably continue. Since this is a digressed point I'm going to have to ask you to get back to the topic of the OP.

guevaraj · Jan 23, 2021

DamianWarS said:
no one keeps the sabbath (including the Sabbath keepers) ... yet God still gives me his rest (and he gives the Sabbath keepers who also don't keep the Sabbath rest too)

Brother, happy Sabbath! What you've felt: that God treats Sunday worshipers the same way He treats Saturday worshipers on the Sabbath issue is because they are both wrong. They both follow "human traditions" and no one has understood the true Sabbath of God to keep it here in the United States according to His written word. Those who follow the Jewish practice of doing the same thing here in the United States that they do in Israel are following a "human tradition", possibly the oldest "human tradition" exposed by the written word of God.

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” (Mark 7:8-13 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

LoveGodsWord · Jan 23, 2021

DamianWarS said:
You seem unwilling to enter into any depth on this and when challenged say I'm rejecting God's word so I don't see how this can reasonably continue. Since this is a digressed point I'm going to have to ask you to get back to the topic of the OP.

You seem unwilling to believe the scriptures shared with you in regards to the topic of the OP here or discuss why they disagree with you. Your OP has been addressed in detail through scripture although you seem unwilling to accept that fact. The answer to your OP has already been provided to you in the very Words of Jesus when he says that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the answer to your OP is that it depends what your doing with your lights or power on the Sabbath that makes it lawful or unlawful. You do not seem to accept this fact which is simply based on the scriptures provided in Matthew 12:1-12 and Mark 2:27-28. Yet these are God's Words not mine that Jesus said to the Jews that were also accusing him of breaking the Sabbath. In spite of the above scriptures, here you are, someone who does not even keep the Sabbath trying to judge those who do. For me as posted earlier, that I hope you now understand, only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that seek to break the commandments of God. Of course you are free to believe as you wish and I do not judge you as your salvation is between you and God. I can only believe the scriptures shared with you. So we of course will agree to disagree.

DamianWarS · Jan 23, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, happy Sabbath! What you've felt: that God treats Sunday worshipers the same way He treats Saturday worshipers on the Sabbath issue is because they are both wrong. They both follow "human traditions" and no one has understood the true Sabbath of God to keep it here in the United States according to His written word. Those who follow the Jewish practice of doing the same thing here in the United States that they do in Israel are following a "human tradition", possibly the oldest "human tradition" exposed by the written word of God.

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” (Mark 7:8-13 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I was approaching the Sabbath as sundown Friday to sundown Saturday but I understand you define this based on sundown to sundown in Israel and I'm fine with that. But even if it's different in a Sabbath vacuum my point is any use of labour-powered systems or marketplace systems (buying/selling) on the Sabbath violates the letter of the law. Since a system like electricity is a labour-powered system and is being sold and bought in the open market then when we participate in this system for non-essential reasons on the Sabbath we violate the letter of the law.

My greater point is to expose that the letter of the law is unkeepable in a western modern context but our goal should not be keeping the letter of the law, it should be on the one who gives us Sabbath rest.

DamianWarS · Jan 23, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
You seem unwilling to believe the scriptures shared with you in regards to the topic of the OP here or discuss why they disagree with you. Your OP has been addressed in detail through scripture although you seem unwilling to accept that fact. The answer to your OP has already been provided to you in the very Words of Jesus when he says that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the answer to your OP is that it depends what your doing with your lights or power on the Sabbath that makes it lawful or unlawful. You do not seem to accept this fact which is simply based on the scriptures provided in Matthew 12:1-12 and Mark 2:27-28. Yet these are God's Words not mine that Jesus said to the Jews that were also accusing him of breaking the Sabbath. In spite of the above scriptures, here you are, someone who does not even keep the Sabbath trying to judge those who do. For me as posted earlier, that I hope you now understand, only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that seek to break the commandments of God. Of course you are free to believe as you wish and I do not judge you as your salvation is beteen you and God. I can only believe the scriptures shared with you. So we of course will agree to disagree.

You've made lots of posts but none take on the OP head on. You just end up calling me a pharasee or a forsaker of the law, which are all attacks against me but do not address the point being made. I am looking for a sound logical answer that shows how participation in a marketplace system (buying/selling) and a labour-powered system on the Sabbath does not violate the Sabbath? Call me a pharasee as much as you want but that doesn't actually answer the question.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 23, 2021

DamianWarS said:
You've made lots of posts but none take on the OP head on. You just end up calling me a pharasee or a forsaker of the law, which are all attacks against me but do not address the point being made. I am looking for a sound logical answer that shows how participation in a marketplace system (buying/selling) and a labour-powered system on the Sabbath does not violate the Sabbath? Call me a pharasee as much as you want but that doesn't actually answer the question.

Well that is not true. The scriptures shared with you show your claims here are only the same ones that the unbelieving Jews made against Jesus when they accused him of breaking the Sabbath and the same answers (scriptures) that Jesus gave these Jews that accused Him of breaking the Sabbath were shared with you. Of course these are God's Words not mine and the very words of Jesus that were given to the unbelieving Jews that accused him of breaking the Sabbath that he created for mankind. So what is it you do not believe? Do you not believe the very Words of Jesus to the unbelieving Jews that accused him of breaking the Sabbath? If not why not (scripture please)?

DamianWarS · Jan 23, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Well that is not true. The scriptures shared with you show your claims here are only the same ones that the unbelieving Jews made against Jesus when they accused him of breaking the Sabbath and the same answers (scriptures) that Jesus gave these Jews that accused Him of breaking the Sabbath were shared with you. Of course these are God's Words not mine and the very words of Jesus that were given to the unbelieving Jews that accused him of breaking the Sabbath that he created for mankind. So what is it you do not believe?

I don't recall the unbelieving Jews making a claim about how western conveniences break the Sabbath. This is still skirting the issue and you're not actually answering anything you're just ranking me with the unbelieving Jews to discredit what I'm saying. I can take that, I don't mind, but the OP is still left unanswered. These are not answers they are judgments. Judge away... no problem, but please just answer the question.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 23, 2021

DamianWarS said:
I don't recall the unbelieving Jews making a claim about how western conveniences break the Sabbath. This is still skirting the issue and you're not actually answering anything you're just ranking me with the unbelieving Jews to discredit what I'm saying. I can take that, I don't mind, but the OP is still left unanswered. These are not answers they are judgments. Judge away... no problem, but please just answer the question.

Your OP has indeed been answered with Gods' Word that are not mine but God's. I see you do not understand what has been shared with you and you are unwilling to answer my questions to you. So we will have to agree to disagree dear friend. Perhaps you can pray about it.

DamianWarS · Jan 23, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Your OP has indeed been answered with Gods' Word that are not mine but God's. I see you do not understand what has been shared with you and you are unwilling to answer my questions to you. So we will have to agree to disagree dear friend. Perhaps you can pray about it.

If I do not understand then then please help me understand your reasons for accepting labour-powered and marketplace systems on the Sabbath in agreeance with the letter of the law?

LoveGodsWord · Jan 23, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, happy Sabbath! You are not going to win the argument, because DamianWarS follows the Holy Spirit who uses him to awaken the Seventh-day Adventist Church to take the next step in fully understanding the Sabbath. How I know this is because of the following statement from him. He doesn't understand why God is giving him His rest. He wants to understand why God is giving him His rest, but only we have the answer he is looking for.

God still gives me his rest (DamianWarS)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I am sorry dear friend but I do not believe you. According to God's Word no one has God's Spirit by not doing what God says *1 John 3:6. God's Spirit is the Spirit of the Word of God *John 6:63. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word therefore do not have God's Spirit and neither do they know God according to 1 John 2:3-4.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 23, 2021

DamianWarS said:
If I do not understand then then please help me understand your reasons for accepting labour-powered and marketplace systems on the Sabbath in agreeance with the letter of the law?

I already have. Did you not reject the scriptures shared with you from Jesus in Matthew 12:1-12 and Mark 2:27 when He answered the unbelieving Jews that accused Him of breaking the Sabbath?

HIM · Jan 23, 2021

DamianWarS said:
According to the law may you buy and sell on the Sabbath?

No.
You can add rent to your list. And btw don't use your toilet.

The people of God were never to keep the letter of the Law. It has always been through love through His Spirit TO KEEP THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW. Which btw is harder than the letter of the Law because it is a loving, self sacrificing Spirit. Which we in and of ourselves do not possess. That is why Christ came so we can possess such a Spirit.

DamianWarS · Jan 23, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I already have. Did you not reject the scriptures shared with you from Jesus in Matthew 12:1-12 and Mark 2:27 when He answered the unbelieving Jews that accused Him of breaking the Sabbath?

This doesn't address the point. I could just as well call your position (which you have yet to articulate) that of unbelieving Jews but it doesn't answer why it is labeled this way.

SabbathBlessings · Jan 23, 2021

Some things you will not understand unless you obey

Psalms 199:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

DamianWarS · Jan 23, 2021

HIM said:
No.
You can add rent to your list. And btw don't use your toilet.

The people of God were never to keep the letter of the Law. It has always been through love through His Spirit TO KEEP THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW. Which btw is harder than the letter of the Law because it is a loving, self sacrificing Spirit. Which we in and of ourselves do not possess. That is why Christ came so we can possess such a Spirit.

I don't know how rent fits into that (you can classify a roof over your head as essential) and I'll let you determine how essential flushing a toilet is but broadly speaking participation of any system on the Sabbath that is labour-powered and/or a part of the marketplace is in violation of the letter of the law. but to your second point, you're right, the law being too hard to keep is sort of the point and foreshadows one to come that can keep the law, and we then may keep it through his actions, not our own actions and through his spirit, not our own spirit.

DamianWarS · Jan 23, 2021

imge said:
Some things you will not understand unless you obey

Psalms 199:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

my participation in the sabbath probably is very agreeable with your own, however, I know when I use labour-power systems and marketplace systems on the sabbath I'm in violation of the letter of the law. This doesn't bother me and I still get Sabbath rest.

SabbathBlessings · Jan 23, 2021

DamianWarS said:
I don't know how rent fits into that (you can classify a roof over your head as essential) and I'll let you determine how essential flushing a toilet is but broadly speaking participation of any system on the Sabbath that is labour-powered and/or a part of the marketplace is in violation of the letter of the law. but to your second point, you're right, the law being too hard to keep is sort of the point and foreshadows one to come that can keep the law, and we then may keep it through his actions, not our own actions and through his spirit, not our own spirit.

We keep it in Spirit by our own actions - doing what God has instructed. Sabbath is about God and doing things that pleases Him like praying, reading His Word in scripture, worshipping Him in church, singing Hymns and rejoicing on His mercy, grace and love. Getting to know God, remembering God, honoring Him. In doing this in return we are blessed with His Holy Spirit. Receiving His Holy Spirit gives us better understanding on His Word.

If we focus on what light we turn on or off than we lose focus on loving Him on His Sabbath. Just like the scripture @LoveGodsWord provided.

HIM · Jan 23, 2021

No.
You can add rent to your list. And btw don't use your toilet.

The people of God were never to keep the letter of the Law. It has always been through love through His Spirit TO KEEP THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW. Which btw is harder than the letter of the Law because it is a loving, self sacrificing Spirit. Which we in and of ourselves do not possess. That is why Christ came so we can possess such a Spirit.

DamianWarS said:
I don't know how rent fits into that (you can classify a roof over your head as essential) and I'll let you determine how essential flushing a toilet is but broadly speaking participation of any system on the Sabbath that is labour-powered and/or a part of the marketplace is in violation of the letter of the law. but to your second point, you're right, the law being too hard to keep is sort of the point and foreshadows one to come that can keep the law, and we then may keep it through his actions, not our own actions and through his spirit, not our own spirit.

The post never said the letter of the Law was to hard to keep. It said it was harder to keep the Spirit of the Law. If our heart ain't with it we ain't in It.

Little children be not deceived he that doeth righteousness is righteous EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. He that sins IS OF THE DEVIL

It is He that works in us both to will and do His Good pleasure. If we do not go along with His working and doing we are not His.

SabbathBlessings · Jan 23, 2021

Mathew 15:8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.

Does turning my lights on violate the sabbath?

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