The New Covenant

MMXX said:

He agrees that Herbert W. Armstrong is close. Although that doesn't really weigh in his favor for establishing credibility.

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HWA is not part of historic (died before 1800) orthodox Christianity.

jgr said:

HWA is not part of historic (died before 1800) orthodox Christianity.

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Well excuse me, but that's all I have to work with

keras said:

Provide a verse that proves we are in the new Covenant now.

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Hebrews 9
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

MMXX said:

The comparison isn't with orthodox Christianity, the comparison is with the OP's teaching.

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The name that I'm seeking is just one name from historic orthodox Christianity who agreed with the cultic claim that the New Covenant is not yet fulfilled.

jgr said:

The name that I'm seeking is just one name from historic orthodox Christianity who agreed with the cultic claim that the New Covenant is not yet fulfilled.

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I misread your post at first and then went back and reworded my reply.

keras said:

Be very careful about who you call 'heretics'. If your beliefs don't coincide with scripture, then you are one.

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Heretical just means unorthodox.

keras said:

My views are as I have posted in the OP, are supported by many scriptures.

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Here's the question, are they supported through exegesis or eisegesis?

Exegesis is legitimate interpretation which "reads out of' the text what the original author or authors meant to convey. Eisegesis, on the other hand, reads into the text what the interpreter wishes to find or thinks he finds there. It expresses the reader's own subjective ideas, not the meaning which is in the text.

keras said:

Wow; this has opened a can of worms!
Luke 22:20 is not in the Revised English Bible. Verse 19, then verse 21.
I was correct; there is no mention of a Covenant in Luke 22.

That verse was added into later manuscripts and is not in the early ones the REB used. They have noted this later addition in the footnotes.
If Luke 22:20 was actually scriptural, it would conflict with and contradict the many prophesies that plainly show the NC will be made AFTER the Lord's faithful Christian peoples are living in all of the holy Land.

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You're going to have to cite that, because I'm not finding any mention of Luke 22:20 not existing in earlier manuscripts. And as I demonstrated multiple translations have it. The KJV always notes when a word or verse(s) are not in early manuscripts, and there's no notation for v 20. Nor am I finding any other source saying it's missing in early manuscripts.

Here's a bunch of commentaries for v 20
Luke 22:20 Commentaries: And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

And the lexicon for v 20
Luke 22:20 Lexicon: And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

The interliner for v 20
Luke 22:20 Interlinear: In like manner, also, the cup after the supping, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood, that for you is being poured forth.

All the places it exists
Luke 22:20 Multilingual: And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.


Edit: When I opened my physical KJV Bible I did find a notation for v 20. Which was "a 1 Corinthians 10:16"

keras said:

Read the Op and #66 and tell me where I have used eisegesis.
While you are at it, tell us who are the two parties to the New Covenant.

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Well, I'm going to have to think over whether or not I want to burn the midnight oil on something that seems to only exist within your head.

MMXX said:

@keras Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

New καινῆς (kainēs) 2537: new, fresh - Testament διαθήκης (diathēkēs) 1242: testament, will, covenant

Testament does indeed equal Covenant. As seen also in Luke 22:20 shown above.

Here's a bunch of translations of Hebrews 9:15

Here's even more examples of Covenant διαθήκης (diathēkēs) 1242 Being used throughout the New Testament.

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How are we “able ministers of the new testament?”

Guojing said:

How are we “able ministers of the new testament?”

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Before I dig into that, can you tell me who Shawn Brasseaux is?

keras said:

Church teaching that the New Covenant is now, is wrong and contradicts many scriptures, as I have shown.
We do have the Promise of the NC, but it will be between the Lord and His people as a group, the 'nation' who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

This will happen soon after all the holy Land is cleared and cleansed by the Lord, on His terrible Day of fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Isaiah 30:29-30, 2 peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, +

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Simple answer, the Holy Spirit dwells in His people, the curtain is torn in two.

This is because the New covenant is now in force.

The gifts of the spirit, the communion in love sing this reality.

Forums declare many talk gospel words but have closed hearts ruled by their past

God bless you

Why object to Jesus being the cornerstone, the door to the Kingdom?

Because the promise has not happened, the word of God has not sprung forth, just legalism and rules.

The mountain of transfiguration was Jesus coming in His authority, the beginning of the Kingdom.

The apostles wanted to pin down the Holy Spirit anointing and ended up with the breathing on them at Jesus's appearance after the resurrection and pentecost. They knew the new reality, but not quite when it shifted.

Jesus declared he had to leave for the Holy Spirit to fall, it's that simple. God bless you

keras said:

Read the Op and #66 and tell me where I have used eisegesis.
While you are at it, tell us who are the two parties to the New Covenant.

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Okay, I looked at #66. What does Ezekiel talking about the restoration of Israel after the end of the Babylonian captivity in 538 BC have to do with the New Covenant of the New Testament?

keras said:

The New Covenant is not made yet. We just have the future Promise of it.
None of the four things listed in Hebrews 8:10-12 have fully happened yet:
1/ I shall set My Laws in their hearts.
2/ I shall be their God and they will be My people.
3/ They will not teach each other, for all will know the Lord.
4/ I shall pardon their sins and remember their wickedness no more.

The New Covenant will be made between the Lord and His corporate Christian peoples, after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land, and all the righteous, faithful Christian peoples will migrate to live there: Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:26

Ezekiel 34:25 I shall make a Covenant with them for their peace and prosperity....

Isaiah 61:8..... I will grant them a sure reward and make an everlasting Covenant with them.

Isaiah 59:20-21 The Lord will come as a Redeemer to Zion and to those descended from Jacob who repent of their rebellion. This is the Covenant I will make with them: My Spirit will abide with them thru all the following generations.

Jeremiah 32:37-40 I shall gather My people from all the lands where they now live......I will make and everlasting Covenant with them, it will be a joy for Me to do them good.

Ezekiel 37:26 [After the Spiritual regeneration and the rejoining of the tribes] I shall make an everlasting Covenant with them, for their peace and prosperity and their numbers will greatly increase. I will put My Sanctuary in their midst, where it will remain for all time.

Isaiah 33:17-24 Those who live righteously and speak the truth, who do not take bribes, rejecting all evil – they will dwell securely with ample food and water. Psalms 85:12

Your eyes will see a King in his glory and view a Land that stretches into the distance. Numbers 24:15-19, Genesis 15:18

You will call to mind what you once feared. Where are they now? Those barbarous people whose speech you could not understand. Psalms 58:10-11, Psalms 37:8-15, Jeremiah 12:14-16
Look upon Zion, Jerusalem, city of sacred festivals. A secure abode, never again to be moved. Amos 9:13-15

There the Lord will be in His majesty, a peaceful place. A place of broad rivers, but no ships will sail there.
The Lord is our judge and lawgiver. He is our King who will save us. Zechariah 8:7-8
Your rigging hangs loose, the mast is not secure and your sails are not set. Luke 12:35-36. Then all will take a share in the spoils. Zechariah 9:17

No one living in Zion will get sick and the sins of the people will be pardoned.

Micah 7:18 Who is God like You? You take away our guilt and forgive the sins of the faithful remnant of Your people......

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Actually, you take out a part of the quote in Hebrews and need to read the whole of the three chapters 8, 9 and 10 and you will see that the New Covenant is in force now and we are, in fact, in the NC.

Hebrews 8:6. Christ is the mediator of the NC, not "will be".

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Christ is the testator of the NC and he has died, therefore the NC is in force now.

You will see this continue as you follow on through chapter 10.

All those promises made to Israel are available to us now because Christ has died, and not only that, he is risen to empower the new covenant he brought into being through his death on the cross.

Our sins are not yet to be forgiven, they are forgiven now: so says all the apostolic teaching and, indeed, by this God is able to write his law on our hearts to obey him. After all, that is what the life of discipleship is all about: obeying God through taking on his nature by Christ.

There is, of course, the unfolding of this because God had many, yet unborn, that he has chosen to save by faith [chapter 11] and so, like Abraham who had the covenant without the fulfilled promise, we press on toward the mark of the high calling of God. Now we are sealed into the covenant because we are in covenant but, when the last responds and Christ returns in clouds of glory, it will be revealed that we are the people of his covenant.

It is clear from the OT Scriptures you quote that Israel of the day did not have the NC because it had not yet been established but now it is established for Christ has died and brought it into force.

MMXX said:

Before I dig into that, can you tell me who Shawn Brasseaux is?

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I have no idea but he is a kjv only guy

Llewelyn Stevenson said:

Actually, you take out a part of the quote in Hebrews and need to read the whole of the three chapters 8, 9 and 10 and you will see that the New Covenant is in force now and we are, in fact, in the NC.

Hebrews 8:6. Christ is the mediator of the NC, not "will be".

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Christ is the testator of the NC and he has died, therefore the NC is in force now.

You will see this continue as you follow on through chapter 10.

All those promises made to Israel are available to us now because Christ has died, and not only that, he is risen to empower the new covenant he brought into being through his death on the cross.

Our sins are not yet to be forgiven, they are forgiven now: so says all the apostolic teaching and, indeed, by this God is able to write his law on our hearts to obey him. After all, that is what the life of discipleship is all about: obeying God through taking on his nature by Christ.

There is, of course, the unfolding of this because God had many, yet unborn, that he has chosen to save by faith [chapter 11] and so, like Abraham who had the covenant without the fulfilled promise, we press on toward the mark of the high calling of God. Now we are sealed into the covenant because we are in covenant but, when the last responds and Christ returns in clouds of glory, it will be revealed that we are the people of his covenant.

It is clear from the OT Scriptures you quote that Israel of the day did not have the NC because it had not yet been established but now it is established for Christ has died and brought it into force.

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where in scripture do we see the leaders and elders of the nation Israel accept the new covenant?

Llewelyn Stevenson said:

Actually, you take out a part of the quote in Hebrews and need to read the whole of the three chapters 8, 9 and 10 and you will see that the New Covenant is in force now and we are, in fact, in the NC.

Hebrews 8:6. Christ is the mediator of the NC, not "will be".

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Christ is the testator of the NC and he has died, therefore the NC is in force now.

You will see this continue as you follow on through chapter 10.

All those promises made to Israel are available to us now because Christ has died, and not only that, he is risen to empower the new covenant he brought into being through his death on the cross.

Our sins are not yet to be forgiven, they are forgiven now: so says all the apostolic teaching and, indeed, by this God is able to write his law on our hearts to obey him. After all, that is what the life of discipleship is all about: obeying God through taking on his nature by Christ.

There is, of course, the unfolding of this because God had many, yet unborn, that he has chosen to save by faith [chapter 11] and so, like Abraham who had the covenant without the fulfilled promise, we press on toward the mark of the high calling of God. Now we are sealed into the covenant because we are in covenant but, when the last responds and Christ returns in clouds of glory, it will be revealed that we are the people of his covenant.

It is clear from the OT Scriptures you quote that Israel of the day did not have the NC because it had not yet been established but now it is established for Christ has died and brought it into force.

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If you are not aware. Here is all the places the Greek word translated covenant can be found in Hebrews. Sometimes it is translated testament. There is plenty of context surrounding those passages which show that the Covenant is or can be in full affect for those of us who call on His name.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

And what do you make of this verse in respect to the New Covenant?

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

keras said:

This refers to our salvation, not to the new Covenant.

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There is NO difference. The New Covenant is our Salvation through Christ.
Romans 10:8 is a quote from Deut 30. I will post it so everyone can see it and the surrounding passages. The context is extremely clear. As you will notice God declares that His commandment and statutes, His Word are NOT hidden from us but are nigh unto us. In OUR HEART AND MOUTH that we may do them.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

So Paul quoted this text in Romans 10:6-8 as being fulfilled in the ones He was speaking to . That the Word, God's Commandments were in their hearts and mouths. Which is another way of saying His Commandments are in our hearts and minds.


I noticed you ignored the following...
There are verbs Heb 8:10 and 10:16 being spoken in the present tense and future. Which a lot of translations do not translate correctly. Here take a look at the LSV

Heb 8:10 because this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, says the LORD, giving My laws into their mind, and I will write them on their hearts, and I will be to them for a God, and they will be to Me for a people;

Have you ever noticed the Writer of Hebrews through God reversed the order.

Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD, giving My laws on their hearts, and I will write them on their minds,”