The Ezekiel Temple-a temple not made with human hands

ShineyDays2 · Jan 22, 2021

keras said:
Read Revelation; it is Jesus' Words.
He will Return as King of Kings and reign from Jerusalem [the Temple] for 1000 years.

What frequently used number patterns mean in Scripture:
~ 2 TWO: This number can mean difference, division or double portion.

In the Creation event, God separated light and darkness. [Genesis 1:3-4]
The Ten Commandments were inscribed on two tablets of stone.
There are two Testaments in the Bible

~ 3 is the number for the triune God according to the early Christians,

It is also the number of perfect completion for the Jews.

~ 4 is the number for creation,
~ 6 is the number for man, incompletion

Six is the number of the beasts and of man (both created on the 6th day).
It is also the number which is symbolic of man's nature to rebel against the sovereignty of God.

~ 7 is the number for perfection, completion, fullness
~ 8 is the number of salvation -

It is the number of Christ, of the resurrection, and of the Second Coming.

~ 10 signifies divine order
~ 12 represents the 12 tribes of Israel or the 12 apostles,
~ 1000 is a number for completeness–
~ 70x70 signifies "without limits"
~ 666 is used it means always coming short of perfection,
~ 144,000 is 12 squared times 1000 meaning;

A great multitude, everyone who's meant to be included is, with no one left out.....
The 144,000 was 12x12x1000 for the twelve tribes of Israel multiplied by the 12 apostles of the gospel of Christ (a squared number of perfection) multiplied a third time by the symbol of complete fullness, 1000.
1,000 is also the symbolic perfection of redeemed man

Verses where these numbers are used in Revelations:

Deut. 7:9 ~ Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Our God is a faithful God and "a thousand generations" here simply means --- forever!

Psalm 105:8 ~ He remembers his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

God does not have a forgetful mind like humans. This verse is referring to the patience of our God.

Psa 50:10 ~ For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

Do you really believe that God literally has a thousand hills with cattle on it somewhere on earth?

Psa 90:4 ~ For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.

This 1,000 years is symbolic and means that we should not take his patience for granted.

2 Peter 3:8 ~ But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This 1,000 years is an indication of God's patience.

Rev 14:3 "...and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except [144,000] who had been redeemed from the earth.

This 144,000 is in heaven. Are you really going to say that there are only 144,000 redeemed saints?

Rev 20:4 ~ Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:6 ~ Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

If God had used the exact number of years that Revelations 20: 4 and 6 say, then we would know exactly when he would return. That would not be for our benefit. If you and I knew that Jesus' second, and ONLY coming on the last day was due on July 4, 2040, just what would we be doing during that period?

Thank goodness for the wisdom of God to not indicate literally when that "thousand" years begins and ends.

keras said:
Silly replies as above, show a sad lack of Bible knowledge.

As far as my "silliness" goes, it was not silliness at all! You were speaking from a literal indoctrination and I was stating legitimate questions about your so called "literal" temple of 1,000 years. I think people would like to know the answers to my literal questions below...

Q- Where are they going to stay?
Q- How many planes does it take that many people to Israel on one day?
Q- Is the airport large enough for all those planes?
Q- Where is the bathroom in the temple?
Q- Will they have pork in the restaurants or is that still a forbidden food?

Timtofly · Jan 22, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Thank goodness for the wisdom of God to not indicate literally when that "thousand" years begins and ends.

Then by your figurative logic, there is no Armageddon and there is no GWT. What spiritual made up belief do Armageddon and GWT represent to you, since they have no time frame probably won't ever happen, as they already happened?

ShineyDays2 · Jan 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
Then by your figurative logic, there is no Armageddon and there is no GWT. What spiritual made up belief do Armageddon and GWT represent to you, since they have no time frame probably won't ever happen, as they already happened?

Since I have no idea what GWT stands for I cannot respond.
"...as they already happened?"??? Armageddon? No.

keras · Jan 22, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Psa 90:4 ~ For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.
This 1,000 years is symbolic and means that we should not take his patience for granted.

2 Peter 3:8 ~ But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

These 2 scriptures give us a formula: to God in heaven a thousand years of earth time, is just like a day to Him.
We can use this formula to explain Revelation 8:1, all the events from the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns, will take 'about' 20 years earth time.

Moriah's Song said:
This 144,000 is in heaven. Are you really going to say that there are only 144,000 redeemed saints?

Nowhere does the Bible say the 144,000 are in heaven. You have added that. There are a vast multitude of faithful Christians in the holy Land. Revelation 7:9
The 144k are selected out from them. Revelation 14:1-7 and they go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19

Moriah's Song said:
As far as my "silliness" goes, it was not silliness at all! You were speaking from a literal indoctrination and I was stating legitimate questions about your so called "literal" temple of 1,000 years. I think people would like to know the answers to my literal questions below...

Q- Where are they going to stay?
Q- How many planes does it take that many people to Israel on one day?
Q- Is the airport large enough for all those planes?
Q- Where is the bathroom in the temple?
Q- Will they have pork in the restaurants or is that still a forbidden food?

There is ample proof of a new Temple in the end times and into the Millennium. Only after then; in Eternity; there will be no Temple. Revelation 21:22
Q1/ In all of the holy Land; the area from the Nile to the Euphrates.
Q2/ Isaiah 66:20 and Psalms 107 describe our great migration there.
Q3/ N/A
Q4/ We are still mortal humans, we function normally. Toilets are needed
Q5 We are no longer under the Laws of Moses. We have cured the pig disease of trichinosis and pork is clean. Acts 10:15

Timtofly · Jan 22, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Since I have no idea what GWT stands for I cannot respond.
"...as they already happened?"??? Armageddon? No.

The 1000 years is in between Armageddon and the Great White Throne. That is the only way to read Revelation 20. Any one can change Scripture and interpret black and white words on a page however they want. They cannot change the words though.

ShineyDays2 · Jan 23, 2021

keras said:
These 2 scriptures give us a formula: to God in heaven a thousand years of earth time, is just like a day to Him.
We can use this formula to explain Revelation 8:1, all the events from the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns, will take 'about' 20 years earth time.

In John Gill's Exposition of the Bible alone he lists 5-6 different possibilities of Rev 8:1 BUT he in no way twists that "half an hour" makes it 20 miles!! That is another twisting of scripture that dispensationalists use and think they are "rightly handling the Word of God." (RSV 2 Tim 2:15)

keras said:
Nowhere does the Bible say the 144,000 are in heaven. You have added that.

Your're dead wrong in saying the 144,000 are not in heaven!

"1)Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion* stood the Lamb, [Christ] and with Him a hundred and forty-thousand [who had been redeemed from the earth -v3] who had his name [Christ's] and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2)And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters...."

"...But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, (NRS) Hebrews 12:22

keras said:
There are a vast multitude of faithful Christians in the holy Land. Revelation 7:9

I don't care if there are billions of faithful Christians in the Holy Land --- but to say that the 144,000 that are in heaven are selected out of the "faithful Christians that [are =presently] in the holy land" does not even make sense because the two have been pasted together to create a completely different thought.

keras said:
The 144k are selected out from them. Revelation 14:1-7

Now that you have taken the 144k out of their heavenly abode, you proceed to send the glorified souls out into a sinful world again to proclaim the Kingdom of heaven for a thousand years??

keras said:
and they go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19

That is another classic example of scripture twisting. Isaiah 66:18-19 is saying "...I am coming to gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and shall see my glory, and I will set a sign (Jesus ) among them. and from them I will send survivors to the nations...to the coastlands afar off (the Gentiles) that have not heard my fame or seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the nations."

But he is NOT saying that the ones that "declare God's glory among the nations" are the ones of Rev 14:1-7 that were "selected out from the nations!!

If everyone did this to scripture the way dispensationalists do we all might as well burn our Bibles and write our own scripts in hopes that God will bless our preferred word instead of His!

keras · Jan 23, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
In John Gill's Exposition of the Bible alone he lists 5-6 different possibilities of Rev 8:1 BUT he in no way twists that "half an hour" makes it 20 miles!!

20 years, not 'miles!
John Gill is dead now, he could not know the truths of the end times. Daniel 12:9
20 years is 1/48th of 1000 years on earth, a half hour is 1/48th of a day in heaven. Simple calculation.

Moriah's Song said:
Your're dead wrong in saying the 144,000 are not in heaven!

"1)Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion* stood the Lamb, [Christ] and with Him a hundred and forty-thousand [who had been redeemed from the earth -v3] who had his name [Christ's] and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2)And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters...."

YOU are dead wrong; Jesus stands on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. He selects the 144,000 out of the vast multitude, Revelation 7:1-9

How can the 'voice' come from heaven, if this scene is in heaven?

Moriah's Song said:
I don't care if there are billions of faithful Christians in the Holy Land

There will be millions, it is our destiny to live in all of the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there, but has never yet had. Ezekiel 39:27-29

Moriah's Song said:
Now that you have taken the 144k out of their heavenly abode, you proceed to send the glorified souls out into a sinful world again to proclaim the Kingdom of heaven for a thousand years??

They never went to heaven, what is their use to God there? Isaiah 66:19 tells us what their task is; To proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.
Glorified souls? what a weird notion; I can confidently say that idea is not Biblical and is a figment of your imagination.

Moriah's Song said:
But he is NOT saying that the ones that "declare God's glory among the nations" are the ones of Rev 14:1-7 that were "selected out from the nations!!

It is logical and a sensible conclusion. Rev 14:6-7 say it is a angel, but that is obviously a metaphor.

ShineyDays2 · Jan 25, 2021

keras said:
20 years, not 'miles!
John Gill is dead now, he could not know the truths of the end times. Daniel 12:9
20 years is 1/48th of 1000 years on earth, a half hour is 1/48th of a day in heaven. Simple calculation.

a) Re: 20 years, not miles? Minor error due to not paying attention. However, whether it was miles or years is irrelevant --- the twisting of "half an hour" of Rev 8:1 into years was the main point.

b) Re: John Gill being dead now and therefore "he could not know the truths of the end times goes", he was one of the greatest reputable theologians that came before John Nelson Darby began promoting his false doctrine called "dispensationalism". Because his writings are more in line with the Bible than Darby's was, he is just as reliable as Matthew Henry and the other greats of that era.

c) Re: Your reference of Dan 12:9 that says, "He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end" has nothing to do with Rev. 8:1.

d) Re: 20 "years" and your simple calculation goes, I can only say "Whhhhaaaat???"

keras said:

YOU are dead wrong; Jesus stands on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. He selects the 144,000 out of the vast multitude, Revelation 7:1-9

Click to expand...

If you are implying that Jesus is standing on a literal earthly Mt Zion and on an earthly Jerusalem, then again you are dead wrong. Read the text chapter 14 verses 2 & 3, "And I heard a voice from heaven..."...the 144k who had been redeemed from the earth."

All reliable commentators know that this is John, presumed on the Island of Patmos, viewing metaphorical scenes in heaven of future events as assurance to us that we will one day be in the New Heavenly Jerusalem as described in that unfulfilled text....provided we have the true Christ and not one of Darby's disciples.

Re: the Lamb --- The Lamb is none other than the "once and for all" sacrificed Christ in heaven and on his throne and seated at the right hand of the Father.

keras said:

Jesus stands on Mount Zion,

Click to expand...

Re: the term MT ZION:
Easton's Bible Dictionary: In the New Testament (See SION) it is used sometimes to denote the Church of God (Hbr 12:22), and sometimes the heavenly city (Rev 14:1).

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. (Gal 4:26)

"But you have come to Mount Zion* and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24). [*the same Mt. Zion of Rev 14:1]

Prophetically in the Old Testament:

"...and the lame I will make the remnant; and those who were cast off, a strong nation; and the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion from this time forth and for evermore. (Mic 4:7)

"The sons of those who oppressed you shall come bending low to you; and all who despised you shall bow down at your feet; they shall call you the City of the LORD, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (Isa 60:14)

Metaphorically, it refer to the Heavenly [new] Jerusalem, God's holy, Eternal city --- that city of the living God that is promised to born again Christians.

"He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name." (Rev 3:12)

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;" (Rev 21:2)

"And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God," (Rev 21:10)

keras said:

How can the 'voice' come from heaven, if this scene is in heaven?

Click to expand...

God knows all and sees all Our God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent! When John baptized Jesus, a voice spoke from heaven and said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17). There are other instances in the Bible where God’s voice was heard, and He still speaks today...I know because at a low point in my life, an audible "voice" calling my name was heard that changed my life from that day forward!

keras said:
They [the 144k] never went to heaven, what is their use to God there?

Re: the 144,000 - In heaven?
Revelation 7:4-8 is describing the 144k "sealed" remnant that symbolizes all the house of Israel of the OT - that faithful remnant that "looked forward" to salvation rather than worldly power.

Revelation 7:9-10 is describing the innumerable "great multitude" of the Gentile/Jewish remnant church of the NT --- from EVERY nation, all TRIBES, and PEOPLES and TONGUES.

Therefore, the 144k and the "great multitude" are joined together in "one body" as the OT promise to join the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah" together was fulfilled (as in the 2-sticks prophecy of Ezekiel & Ephesians 2.)

Hence there is no need of a "new temple to be built" because God has already fulfilled his promises in the Jewish/Gentile body of Christ's church - the SPIRITUAL temple (NAOS).

keras said:
Glorified souls? what a weird notion; I can confidently say that idea is not Biblical and is a figment of your imagination.

Re : the word GLORY:

"So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power." (1 Cor. 15:42–43)

"...And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Co 3:18)

"By its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into [the new Jerusalem],...they shall bring into [the new Jerusalem]the glory and the honor of the nations." (Rev 21:24, 26)

keras said:
It is logical and a sensible conclusion.

It is not "a logical conclusion" to say that the ones that "declare God's glory among the nations" are the ones of Rev 14:1-7 that were "selected out from the nations" at all. As we have seen above, the 144k are in a heavenly scene. Therefore, in there glorified heavenly bodies, they could never again be returning to earth to "declare God's glory among the nations." Only those hold to preconceived dispensational false doctrines find it necessary to "cut and paste" words and phrases out of God's Holy Word and create these kinds of absurd new thoughts.

keras · Jan 25, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
"Whhhhaaaat???"

We shall see, won't we?

The end times will be just that much more difficult for those who have wrong ideas about what God has planned for His people before Jesus Returns.

ShineyDays2 · Jan 26, 2021

keras said:
We shall see, won't we?

The end times will be just that much more difficult for those who have wrong ideas about what God has planned for His people before Jesus Returns.

That is an understatement and a paradoxical truth of which you should be taking very seriously as well as what others here have been saying to you. You should pay special attention to the verses below!!

There will be a "rapture" for sure --- but ONLY (1) rapture at the "end of the ages" when the unsaved are in hell for eternity and the resurrection of believers are with our King, Priest, and Savior in the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven after the Day of Judgement has passed.

(2 Peter 3:10-13)~ "But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved,...the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth..".

(1Th 5:2-3)"For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When people say, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape.

No mention of a "new temple" or a "rapture" here in these two verses if it is read "as is" without inserting anything that would changing God's plan to a man-made plan is there?

(2Pe 2:1) "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words;..."

From the words of Jesus himself:

(John 14:2) ~ "In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?"

Is there any hint of Jesus' intention to return before he goes to heaven "to prepare a place for us" or to "rapture his saints" before his second coming at the end of this age? If so, please tell us just what words in that verse indicates a rapture to you without cutting and pasting a verse from a "vision" into it in order to "create a new thought".

(1 Thess 1:6-8)"...since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Here Christ will repay those who have afflicted us; he grants us rest when he is revealed from heaven with his angels in flaming fire. There is no earthly 1,000 year gap-event in it either.

A pattern of how the events of the "end times" or the "end of the ages" is revealed to us in the order as scripture is written in 1 Co 15:23

a) "But each in his own order:
b) Christ the first fruits,
c) then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
d) Then comes the end,
e) after destroying every rule and every authority and power,
f) he delivers the kingdom to God the Father.
g) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
h) The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

There is no such thing as "chaos" or "hidden mystery" with God's plan of how the end will come.

"Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality...then shall come to pass the saying that is written; "Death is swallowed up in victory."" (1 Cor:51-53, 54b)

keras · Jan 26, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
There will be a "rapture" for sure --- but ONLY (1) rapture at the "end of the ages" when the unsaved are in hell for eternity and the resurrection of believers are with our King, Priest, and Savior in the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven after the Day of Judgement has passed.

There is no 'rapture to heaven, for the Church. When Jesus Returns he will gather His People to Him, as Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:17 say.
That is simply a horizontal transportation to where Jesus is, finally in Jerusalem.
The resurrection of all who have ever lived, happens AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
An only then, will there be no Temple, Revelation 21:22, which infers that there WAS a Temple during the Millennium. Also proved by Zechariah 14:16:21

ShineyDays2 · Jan 27, 2021

keras said:
There is no 'rapture to heaven, for the Church.

"Pre-mills" and "dispys" use 1 Thess 4 as the "secret rapture" of the Church being removed from the earth even though this Thess passage was to comfort those who were awaiting the second coming of Christ and were concerned about their loved ones who had died in Christ and what was going to happen to them. Paul does not deal with the "unbelievers" in this passage --- only believers.

The word "rapture" is not found in the Bible. It was invented to create a whole new doctrine that began with J. N. Darby and promoted by Schofield and others. However, the way I use it is in the manner in which 1 Thess 4 intends it to be used when Paul used the term "caught up together" with those loved ones who had died.

This event occurs at the End of All Things, End of the Ages, the Resurrection, the Last Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Judgment or the Second Coming. I do NOT use it to mean the "removal of the church" prior to, or after a literal 1,000 millennium along with a "new temple" which Jesus himself never commanded to be built, nor did the writers of the NT ever at any time indicate that there would be one. (There is no command in John's vision to built a new temple either.) Verses in scripture indicate the exact opposite.

“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this, we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ESV).

What born-again Christians look forward to is the resurrection from the dead and our being "gathered up" to be with the Lord on that Day. The terms "rapture, caught up, gathered up, or ascended with" are all synonyms of each other. As long as they don't change the thought of the verse, they are legitimate usages.

ShineyDays2 · Jan 27, 2021

keras said:
When Jesus Returns he will gather His People to Him,

When Jesus returns does NOT mean that he will gather "His People" (the Jews nor the Church) to Him into a literal newly constructed temple on earth and in Jerusalem as it seems you were subtly implying.

Four RSV Bible verses:

1) Rom 15:10 ~ "...and again it is said, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people";

2) Mat 1:21 ~ "...she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
(Matthew Henry's Commentary: "For he shall save his people from their sins;" not the nation of the Jews only...but all who were given him by the Father's choice,)

3) Mat 2:6 ~ 'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel.'"

4) Rom 9:25-26 ~ "As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'my beloved.'" And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary: "This new Jerusalem is the church of God in its new and perfect state, the church triumphant. Its blessedness came wholly from God, and depends on him. The presence of God with his people in heaven, means that he will dwell with them continually."

ShineyDays2 · Jan 27, 2021

keras said:
That is simply a horizontal transportation to where Jesus is, finally in Jerusalem.

"a horizontal transportation"....???????? Seems like we have a new doctrine here to replace Thessalonians "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air," scriptural term? Read carefully Revelation 22:18-19...

"I [Christ] warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

keras · Jan 27, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary: "This new Jerusalem is the church of God in its new and perfect state, the church triumphant. Its blessedness came wholly from God, and depends on him. The presence of God with his people in heaven, means that he will dwell with them continually."

Ole Matt, seems to have missed Revelation 21:1-7, where it says God will come to dwell with mankind on earth.
After the Millennium reign of King Jesus; He will hand the Kingdom back to the Father, 1 Corinthians 15:24

Moriah's Song said:
"a horizontal transportation"....???????? Seems like we have a new doctrine here to replace Thessalonians "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air," scriptural term?

The example of this 'transportation' is when Philip was spiritually taken to another location. Acts of the Apostles 8:39
The gathering of those who remain when Jesus Returns will be the same. Matthew 24:30-31

It is a serious matter to accuse fellow Christians of adding to or subtracting from scripture. Bu sure you are right, for it may rebound onto you. James 4:11-12

You still seem to think there is still a distinction between the Jews and the people of God, the Christian Overcomers for Him; literally His Israelites. Read carefully Ephesians 2:11-18, Romans 2:29 and many other scriptures that prove the Jews are just another secular nation, who face judgment/punishment in the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18 Only a Christian remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

ShineyDays2 · Jan 29, 2021

keras said:
Ole Matt, seems to have missed Revelation 21:1-7, where it says God will come to dwell with mankind on earth.

Since Jesus never spoke of the vision in Ezekiel as a command to build a literal temple at that time, since there was already one standing, nor did he ever refer to anyone in the future to build one for him, then it should be clear that he meant what he said when he said "My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world." Also he say the his "temple" is spiritual; not earthly." Therefore, Revelations has to be a fulfillment of the vision in Ezekiel of which neither should be taken to indicate entirely a "literal" hermeneutics of either vision.

First we have to look back at Revelation 20:11 &15 to see the status of the earth, the sky and the unbelievers before we can understand Revelation 21: 1-7.

In verse 11 of chapter 20, it says very clearly what the status is: "Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them."....(Note: Revelation often uses the word "Then" at the beginning of certain paragraphs to indicate that the view is changing to a different aspect of the vision. It also uses the word "Then" to indicate that it is going back to a previous description of a particular scene for further clarification.)

To continue, chapter 20:15 ends by saying; "and if anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Note: this is clearly the Judgment Day for those whose names were not written in "the book of life".)

Moving on to Chapter 21:1-3 where again we see that the first word "Then" is used to describe what replaces the "old earth and sky". Verse 1 says: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more". Verse 2 sates that "the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, is "coming down" out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride" (the church) ...Now is verse 3 we read where "the church and God are dwelling together"...but where?..."on the NEW heaven and the NEW earth of verse one ---- and NOT in a new earthly temple of a literal 1,000 years!

As to the measurements of the Holy City Jerusalem coming down out of heaven's measurements of the city goes...those "stadia" measurements are a perfect square of 12,000 per length and breadth and height. Those measurement indicate a city that is 1,500 MILES long, wide, and HIGH!!!. That my friend is higher than man can breath, higher than our satellites are stationed and therefore would be about the distance from Maine to Florida in height and halfway across the USA!!! Now can we say non-literal??

To address your comment in regards to Matthew Henry, he uses the words: "heaven" and "earth" 5 times in his comments of Rev 21:1-8. Matthew begins his comments on Chapter 21 as a he focuses on the resurrected multitudes happiness of being in the presence of God and the risen Christ for eternity. Yet, Matthew does not believe that the "new earth" is the same earth that we presently live on or one that comes down in a "new temple" in Jerusalem that dispensationalists believe needs to be built. It is a renewed earth that had to be cleansed from all the blood of thousands of years beginning with the death of Abel.

keras · Jan 29, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Since Jesus never spoke of the vision in Ezekiel as a command to build a literal temple at that time, since there was already one standing, nor did he ever refer to anyone in the future to build one for him, then it should be clear that he meant what he said when he said "My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world." Also he say the his "temple" is spiritual; not earthly." Therefore, Revelations has to be a fulfillment of the vision in Ezekiel of which neither should be taken to indicate entirely a "literal" hermeneutics of either vision.

First we have to look back at Revelation 20:11 &15 to see the status of the earth, the sky and the unbelievers before we can understand Revelation 21: 1-7.

In verse 11 of chapter 20, it says very clearly what the status is: "Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them."....(Note: Revelation often uses the word "Then" at the beginning of certain paragraphs to indicate that the view is changing to a different aspect of the vision. It also uses the word "Then" to indicate that it is going back to a previous description of a particular scene for further clarification.)

To continue, chapter 20:15 ends by saying; "and if anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Note: this is clearly the Judgment Day for those whose names were not written in "the book of life".)

Moving on to Chapter 21:1-3 where again we see that the first word "Then" is used to describe what replaces the "old earth and sky". Verse 1 says: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more". Verse 2 sates that "the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, is "coming down" out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride" (the church) ...Now is verse 3 we read where "the church and God are dwelling together"...but where?..."on the NEW heaven and the NEW earth of verse one ---- and NOT in a new earthly temple of a literal 1,000 years!

As to the measurements of the Holy City Jerusalem coming down out of heaven's measurements of the city goes...those "stadia" measurements are a perfect square of 12,000 per length and breadth and height. Those measurement indicate a city that is 1,500 MILES long, wide, and HIGH!!!. That my friend is higher than man can breath, higher than our satellites are stationed and therefore would be about the distance from Maine to Florida in height and halfway across the USA!!! Now can we say non-literal??

To address your comment in regards to Matthew Henry, he uses the words: "heaven" and "earth" 5 times in his comments of Rev 21:1-8. Matthew begins his comments on Chapter 21 as a he focuses on the resurrected multitudes happiness of being in the presence of God and the risen Christ for eternity. Yet, Matthew does not believe that the "new earth" is the same earth that we presently live on or one that comes down in a "new temple" in Jerusalem that dispensationalists believe needs to be built. It is a renewed earth that had to be cleansed from all the blood of thousands of years beginning with the death of Abel.

You have mixed up things happening now, with things to happen soon and during the Millennium and after it.
The renewed heavens and earth does not come until Eternity. Rev 21

But: soon to come is the terrible Lord's Day of fiery wrath, the world changer, that will enable a new Temple to be built in Jerusalem. That it is there before Jesus Returns, is proved by 2 Thess 2:4 and Rev 11:1

At present, it is we Christians who are the Spiritual Temple of God on earth.

ShineyDays2 · Jan 29, 2021

keras said:
You have mixed up things happening now, with things to happen soon and during the Millennium and after it.

Sorry, but it is your indoctrinated preconceived ideas that began with a human being from England that started this heresy about a new temple and a rapture prior to a figmented millennium that you can't prove one bit from the words of Jesus Christ himself while he was here, in person, on earth teaching us with direct words within the 4 gospels, parables, visions of the transfiguration and in the Olivet Discourse, or in the book of Acts ONE SINGLE WORD LIKE --- MILLENNIUM, BUILD ME A NEW TEMPLE EVEN THOUGH I WILL HAVE THE ROMANS DESTROY THIS ONE, SO I CAN RETURN AND HAVE A REDO OF SACRIFICES TO MYSELF AFTER SACRIFICING MYSELF ON THE CROSS SO THAT ANYONE THAT BELIEVES IN ME AND MY WORDS WILL BE SAVED BECAUSE SOME OF THE JEWS DID NOT WANT ME TO BE KING - EVEN THOUGH I WAS CROWNED KING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM.!!!!

I challenge you right now to show me those words out of our Lord Jesus's mouth and not out of John Nelson Darby's vivid imagination.

keras · Jan 29, 2021

I have nothing to do with Darby, or his 'rapture to heaven' theory.
What Jesus taught was Salvation and the Commandments.

That there will be a new Temple is found in many other scriptures, which I have already presented.
There is nothing wrong about a new Temple, we build church's because we need a place to worship God in.
Zephaniah 6:12-15 is a prophecy for the future.

ShineyDays2 · Jan 31, 2021

keras said:
I have nothing to do with Darby, or his 'rapture to heaven' theory.
What Jesus taught was Salvation and the Commandments.

As I said previously in post #132...."The terms "rapture, caught up, gathered up, or ascended with" are all synonyms of each other. As long as they don't change the thought of the verse, they are legitimate usages."

These are terms that are used to describe what Christians seek reassurance and comfort in at "the end of the ages" as in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and other verses in the NT. Verse 17 very clearly uses the term "caught up"....together....with...(the dead in Christ)...in the clouds...to meet our Lord...in the air...of which we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore, please show me a verse in the New Testament where it says that "the end" will be anything different or anything like Philip being "horizontally transported" to Azotus!! Again you add to scripture what is not clearly written and that is that Philip was "caught up" and that Philip "was found" at Azotos. Period. That is all we are entitled to say about the incident. God used that special event that is totally different to what he says will occur on the Last Day after a "non-literal millennium" that began at the time of the risen Christ or Pentecost until the Last Day and the end of the ages that began in the Garden in Eden and ends with the being "caught up together with the Lord for eternity".

There are other speculations as to why Philip had to go to the eunuch and the one that seems to be the most logical explanation is that it was to confirm to him that the scripture he was reading about the "promised savior" had indeed come and to baptize him and ordain him as a messenger of the gospel "to all the towns till he came to Caesarea."

I also want to add in regards to Darby and his dispensational system of a "rapture" and a "new temple" theory that his imaginary new thought had its roots brought to the USA and promoted by others that sought fame, fortune and power to the demise of some of the most educated and dedicated men who never stopped to question his theory through scripture. It is so prevalent now that on cannot find anything but dispensational books, churches or seminaries that promote it through the Scofield study Bible.

You may say that you have nothing to do with Darby but Darby seems to have had an influence on you and SO many others who have never even heard the name before because they have heard it taught in their own churches and, because they love their pastor, do not question the system that came here less than 200 years ago along with a period that included other groups like the JW's, Mormons, Unitarians and Christian Scientist etc.

The Ezekiel Temple-a temple not made with human hands

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