In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

kiwimac

Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian
Supporter
May 14, 2002
14,985
1,519
63
New Zealand
Visit site
✟590,115.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
This was Jesus' view on sexual relationships: "He said, ‘That’s why a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife. The two will become one'" (NIRV).

Oz

You cannot use a reply from Jesus about divorce in the context of an attempt by the Pharisees to catch him out. It simply will not fly.
 
Upvote 0

kiwimac

Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian
Supporter
May 14, 2002
14,985
1,519
63
New Zealand
Visit site
✟590,115.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
SB,

That is not true. The Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon gives the meaning of arsenokoitēs as "a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite" (1957, 109).

"The closest meaning of arsenokoitai over five hundred years of translation was men who took the active role in non-procreative sex. Arsenokoitai did not define what we would call the sexual orientation of a person; it indicated the role played in the sexual act'' (source).​

I find no NT evidence that Jesus married.

Oz
There is no use of arsenokoitēs in hellenic Greek. It appears to have been created by Paul.
It is a word that is extremely rare in ancient Greek, and though Philo is often claimed to have used it around 35 AD, that claim is in fact, false

Source

also
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
I preach the Scriptures, all of them, and don't avoid particular passages.

Does this include God's view of homosexuality in Rom 1 and 1 Cor 6? Do you try to exegete those 2 tricky words in 1 Cor 6:9 that seem to indicate active and passive roles for homosexual men?

I am saying that I distinguish between acts and orientation, and see orientation as an artefact of neurological development.

"Sexual orientation," in my understanding is a psychological term and not from the biblical text. I have an MA in counselling psychology that prepared me for many years of ministry.

It has already been pointed out to you in this thread that it's conduct towards a particular person, which preaching is not.

Do you preach on ...

Galatians 5:19–21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

These are most definitely behaviours.

That's simply not true. Anyone who's sat with and listened to the accounts of those who've been subject to these practices know how deeply traumatic they are.

Those who have been my clients who reveal they engage in homosexual acts are treated with compassion, empathy and care by me. I only go where the person allows me to go. I will never press the client to the point where he/she becomes traumatised.

Oz
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
But Christian conversion is not conversion therapy. They are very, very different things.

Christian conversion would not, for example, include subjecting someone to intense, painful cold, while exposing them to homoerotic stimuli, so that they will learn to associate sexual arousal with pain. That is just one practice I know to have been used with teenagers in recent years.

Making conversion therapy defined so it doesn't include Christian conversion is a work of the enemy and a promotion of secular approaches to counselling.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Your distinction between 'conversion' and 'being made a disciple' is unclear. In the Gospel we will read in Church Tomorrow Jesus says 'come and follow after me'. (Mark 1:14-20). To me that is very clear.

The proposed law does not ask Christians to stop being Christian. It does not propose that we may not proclaim the good news of the Kingdom. It does not even say that you can't say Homosexual Acts are Sinful. Sure we have had a level of controversy with a leading sportsperson has been made a Companion of the Order of Australia, whilst she holds strong and outspoken views on the subject, none the less she has not fallen foul of the proposed legislation.

The law in Australia has decriminalised Homosexual Acts. The law in Australia permits two people of the same gender to marry. We as the Church working within this community have a duty and a responsibility, as far as we are able, to work within the law. The Church cannot there carry out a marriage of someone previously married to some one of the same gender without their being either a death certificate or a decree absolute.

We are not being asked to stop proclaiming the Good News. We are not being called to stop recognising that we are made in the image and after the likeness of God. We are being called to stop engaging in or supporting those practices which the law has determined, on medical advice, do psychological and physical harm to our brothers and sisters in humanity. Personally I don't think that is a big ask, and it worries me that some people in the church need a law to stop them doing these things.

Abraham Lincoln suggested that God was against sin. The underlying truth of course is that God loves sinners. All of us!

Philip,

That's because I do not restrict "conversion therapy" to what the secularists want. I legitimately include conversion to Christ and I do not ever want any government to intrude into the churches' work of salvation and making disciples.

Oz
 
Upvote 0

kiwimac

Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian
Supporter
May 14, 2002
14,985
1,519
63
New Zealand
Visit site
✟590,115.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Making conversion therapy defined so it doesn't include Christian conversion is a work of the enemy and a promotion of secular approaches to counselling.
Nonsense.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: OzSpen
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,005
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,143.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Does this include God's view of homosexuality in Rom 1 and 1 Cor 6? Do you try to exegete those 2 tricky words in 1 Cor 6:9 that seem to indicate active and passive roles for homosexual men?

As appropriate to my pastoral context, yes.

"Sexual orientation," in my understanding is a psychological term and not from the biblical text.

Agreed. It is a concept about which the Scriptures are silent, and indeed one which had not developed in the cultures in which the Scriptures developed.

That does not mean it is a concept which has no utility to us today, or which should be rejected. We do not need to limit our vocabulary or conceptualisations of the human person to concepts which we can locate in Scripture.

https://www.esv.org/Galatians 5:19–21/

When I said I preach on all the Scriptures and do not avoid particular passages, I meant that. You do not need to keep raising particular passages.

Those who have been my clients who reveal they engage in homosexual acts are treated with compassion, empathy and care by me. I only go where the person allows me to go. I will never press the client to the point where he/she becomes traumatised.

That sounds good and appropriate. In which case, this law is very unlikely to have any impact on your practice.

Making conversion therapy defined so it doesn't include Christian conversion is a work of the enemy and a promotion of secular approaches to counselling.

The thing is, there are practices which amount to torture and do result in trauma, which the government is seeking to outlaw (numerous examples have been posted throughout the thread). Your argument that those practices should be conflated with normal, healthy Christian conversion makes it seem that you are arguing for the legitimacy of those torturous and traumatising practices.

Otherwise why have a problem that the government is trying to make sure vulnerable teenagers aren't tortured?

We need to be able to draw a line and say that some things are unacceptable. Physically hurting and traumatising people in an attempt to turn them straight is not okay. Advocate for whatever language around that you prefer, but please don't get in the way of trying to put a stop to those practices.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,382
5,501
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟602,039.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Philip,

That's because I do not restrict "conversion therapy" to what the secularists want. I legitimately include conversion to Christ and I do not ever want any government to intrude into the churches' work of salvation and making disciples.

Oz
However you definition is not the subject of the proposed legislation, so possibly not the subject of this thread unless you think fixing queer folk brings them salvation.
 
Upvote 0

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
SB,

That is not true. The Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon gives the meaning of arsenokoitēs as "a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite" (1957, 109).
and that translation is based on...what?


"The closest meaning of arsenokoitai over five hundred years of translation was men who took the active role in non-procreative sex. Arsenokoitai did not define what we would call the sexual orientation of a person; it indicated the role played in the sexual act'' (source).​

Reddit is a lot of things but its usually not a reliable factual source

I find no NT evidence that Jesus married.

Oz
so there were other options besides getting married to a woman.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Paul was actually referring to the septuagint and the levitical verses. His words were deliberately chosen with a specific meaning behind them.
wow, you aren't just a telepath you are a telepath who can read the mind of someone who has been dead for a couple thousand years. That is truly impressive

The word was used in ancient greek, but it is extremely rare. The septuagint and the Jewish translators are clear that this refers directly to man on man sex. Which isn't reference only to make homosexuality. It would apply to ANY man on man sex. As I've said before.
there are just over 90 known instances being used in writings contemporary to Paul. None of them can be construed to mean homosexual. The Sibylline Oracles, uses arsenokoitis to mean the exploitation of girls for sex.
John the Faster, Patriarch of Constantinople wrote “Some do it with their own mothers and foster sisters or goddaughters. In fact, many men even commit arsenokoites with their wives!”
as far as the septuagint is concerned -

From the Septuagint: "kai meta arsenos ou koimêthêsê koitên gynaikos bdelygma gar estin"


Broken down:
The greek "Kai" is "and", and "meta" is roughly "with".

"arsenos" means "male" (as opposed to "man" ["andros"]). An interesting choice of wording to say the least –

"koimethese" roughly means "the same as".

"koiten" specifically means "marriage bed".

"gunaikos" means "woman" [as in "gynacology"], but can idiomatically refer to "wife", as in "my woman".

Bdelygma mens ritually impure

gar estin - to make one be

notice that it is not listed as an abomination "to'evah" ("To'ebah") or even a sin (zimah)

So the Septuagint reads: "and with a male using the same marriage bed as a wife's marriage bed, it is ritually impure.” or more fully. "a man who brings another into his wife's bed becomes ritually impure"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
4,338
5,024
New Jersey
✟332,494.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Please tell us about your understanding of discipleship. Does it help us to grow in the Christian life and deal with behavioural issues?

Christian discipleship is the collection of spiritual practices (prayer, study, worship, and so on) by which we open ourselves to the work of God in our lives, so that, over time, we will be transformed into the person that God created us to be, living in the way that Jesus taught during his life on earth.

If you're asking about human relationships: Some people find that the discipline of solitude helps them to see God more clearly and serve God more fully. Other people find that the discipline of living in a family helps them to serve God, daily practicing the forgiveness of one another's trespasses.

I do not see a place for violence in Christian discipleship.
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,382
5,501
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟602,039.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I think we understand the separation of Church and State rather more completely than say the UK or the USA. Our Constitution lacks some of the clarity of the US Constitution and we do not have the enviable 1st amendment. We take our Freedom of the Press, our Freedom of Speech, and or Freedom of Assembly, as inherent in the English Common Law which we presume passes to Australian Common Law from 1901.

Unlike the English, we do not have an Established Church, or a national religion. Our political leaders would rarely make an appeal to a religious base in the way we have seen happen in the USA. Religion is constitutionally (section 116) not a bar to holding office, and we had a Archbishop serve as Governor General a few years back (The GG is our Head of State, filling much the same role as the Queen does in the UK somewhat removed from the hurdy-gurdy of political life).

Recent Prime Ministers have been Anglican (in various shades) Catholic (in various dimensions) and Atheist, whist our present PM is a worshiping member of one of the newer Pentecostal Churches.

116. Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.​
 
  • Informative
Reactions: dms1972
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
and that translation is based on...what?

SB,

That's for you to go to the Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature to determine their methodology. Here is their analysis of this word, arsenokoitēs:

a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSV’s ‘homosexuals’ [altered to ‘sodomites’ NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, ’86, 187–91; cp. DWright, ibid. 41, ’87, 396–98; REB’s rendering of μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται w. the single term ‘sexual pervert’ is lexically unacceptable), of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp. μαλακός (difft. DMartin, in Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality, ed. RBrawley, ’96, 117–36); 1 Ti 1:10; Pol 5:3. Cp. Ro 1:27. Romans forbade pederasty w. free boys in the Lex Scantinia, pre-Cicero (JBremmer, Arethusa 13, ’80, 288 and notes); Paul’s strictures against same-sex activity cannot be satisfactorily explained on the basis of alleged temple prostitution (on its rarity, but w. some evidence concerning women used for sacred prostitution at Corinth s. LWoodbury, TAPA 108, ’78, 290f, esp. note 18 [lit.]), or limited to contract w. boys for homoerotic service (s. Wright, VigChr 38, ’84, 125–53).’, Arndt, Danker, & Bauer (eds.), ‘A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature’, p. 135 (3rd ed. 2000).​

Do you know Greek and how to compile a Greek dictionary/lexicon?

For the meaning of arsenokoitēs, also go to the supreme example of Greek word studies, 10 vols in the Kittel and Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. I'll leave you to do the searching.

Oz
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
What way is the separation of Church and State understood in Australia?

We have no state church like the Church of England in the UK. Polity of denominations is not dictated by the government. Church social agencies and schools receive funding from the government, but that is based on performance, not doctrine.

Our current Prime Minister is a Pentecostal Christian but the Pentecostal Church is not a State church integrated with government policy.

However, the Australian Constitution of 1900 includes:

Section 116

4.2
The starting point in any discussion about religious freedom in Australia is section 116 of the Australian Constitution:

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.​

4.3
There are four prohibitions on the Commonwealth in this section:
  • establishing any religion
  • imposing any religious observation
  • prohibiting the free exercise of any religion
  • requiring a religious test as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.
Oz
 
  • Informative
Reactions: dms1972
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,084
1,302
✟593,863.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
“No matter how bad things are, you can always make things worse.” Randy Pausch

This grossly illiberal bill would do just that. The drafters seem not realise that life is often difficult and seek to mollycoddle lesbian and gay folks while oppressing and making life even more difficult for nearly everyone else - where it would leave Bi-sexuals or individuals who may not be homosexual but who want to talk to a psychotherapist I have no idea. It's effects would certainly not be limited to christians alone.

Best to pray earnestly about the matter.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
SB,

That's for you to go to the Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature to determine their methodology. Here is their analysis of this word, arsenokoitēs:

a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSV’s ‘homosexuals’ [altered to ‘sodomites’ NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, ’86, 187–91; cp. DWright, ibid. 41, ’87, 396–98; REB’s rendering of μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται w. the single term ‘sexual pervert’ is lexically unacceptable), of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp. μαλακός (difft. DMartin, in Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality, ed. RBrawley, ’96, 117–36); 1 Ti 1:10; Pol 5:3. Cp. Ro 1:27. Romans forbade pederasty w. free boys in the Lex Scantinia, pre-Cicero (JBremmer, Arethusa 13, ’80, 288 and notes); Paul’s strictures against same-sex activity cannot be satisfactorily explained on the basis of alleged temple prostitution (on its rarity, but w. some evidence concerning women used for sacred prostitution at Corinth s. LWoodbury, TAPA 108, ’78, 290f, esp. note 18 [lit.]), or limited to contract w. boys for homoerotic service (s. Wright, VigChr 38, ’84, 125–53).’, Arndt, Danker, & Bauer (eds.), ‘A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature’, p. 135 (3rd ed. 2000).​

Do you know Greek and how to compile a Greek dictionary/lexicon?

For the meaning of arsenokoitēs, also go to the supreme example of Greek word studies, 10 vols in the Kittel and Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. I'll leave you to do the searching.

Oz
that is the point. the translation isn't based on anything outside of politics
 
Upvote 0

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
I can understand how in the form of a coercive treatment it would be harmful, but people have to first approach therapists and that usually entails explaining one's reasons for seeking psychotherapy. I just think therapists might be better to refuse to take on clients who are not seeking therapy of their own volition. There should be as a preliminary some discussion about an individuals reasons for seeking psychotherapy?
legitimate therapists wont take on such clients

Jeffrey Satinover's book Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth covers a lot of the issues in a even-handed way.
Satinover also claims that prozac "cures" homosexuals
 
Upvote 0

creslaw

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 20, 2015
1,137
1,183
78
✟171,835.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
“No matter how bad things are, you can always make things worse.” Randy Pausch

This grossly illiberal bill would do just that. The drafters seem not realise that life is often difficult and seek to mollycoddle lesbian and gay folks while oppressing and making life even more difficult for nearly everyone else - where it would leave Bi-sexuals or individuals who may not be homosexual but who want to talk to a psychotherapist I have no idea. It's effects would certainly not be limited to christians alone.

Best to pray earnestly about the matter.

This bill is based on ignorance of politicians and the agenda of LGBT activists. Some people just cannot imagine that a person could have personal, social or religious life goals that are more important than their sexual feelings.

LGBT advocates like to use suicide as a reason for banning any sort of helping therapy for people with unwanted same sex attraction, while ignoring there are suicides from being denied access to help to live consistent with one's life goals.

I have no data for this last claim except that as a Christian teenager struggling with same sex attraction I was suicidal until the intervention of a kindly priest who helped me work through the conflict I was experiencing by prayer, Bible study & wise counselling.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: dms1972
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,084
1,302
✟593,863.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
This bill is based on ignorance of politicians and the agenda of LGBT activists.

It's so ill-conceived and poorly thought out that it could almost serve as a textbook example of how to not draft a bill, it is so incredibly naive at best. While there may be some simplistic ideas and practices around and unqualified people claiming to offer 'conversion therapy' what this bill proposes is not the solution. When it would be so much more sensible to just ask for the professions to draw up some guidelines on good practice so that adults who want to overcome for instance a sexual addiction or compulsion in this area can seek out lets say some sort of insight oriented psychotherapy, sexual addicts support group, or pastoral care for themselves, and would be able to get it. This bill goes way beyond guidelines on good practice, and seems to trangress several boundaries. Homosexuality is not some uniform trait and there are studies as well as no small amount of anecdotal evidence which suggest that it is not immutable. As I said what about people with sexual addictions in this area? How are they to be helped? What about people who are HIV positive?
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: creslaw
Upvote 0