In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

OzSpen · Jan 22, 2021

SilverBear said:
quoting irrelevant passages doesn't change the lie that conversion therapy is safe to truth.

Conversion therapy lies when it says that people can and do change orientations
it lies when it says orientation is a choice.
it leis when it says there is research to back it up
it lies when it makes bizarre claims about homosexuality
conversion therapists lie when they say they just want to help people

SB,

As a male, were you born with XY chromosomes, XX chromosomes or XYT chromosomes?

Oz

OzSpen · Jan 22, 2021

PloverWing said:
Matthew 28 does not teach us to engage in the kind of physical and psychological violence that is found in conversion therapy.

PloverW,

Matt 28:18-20 (ESV) states:

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Since Christians are to make disciples of all nations, a fundamental is that a person must experience conversion before he or she is discipled. Christian discipleship means growth in Christ, not growth in physical and psychological violence.

Seems to me you have bought into the secular PC view of "conversion therapy." That is not what the Bible says about Christian conversion - even of homosexuals, adulterers, liars, thieves, idolaters, etc.

Oz

Paidiske · Jan 22, 2021

OzSpen said:
Seems to me you have bought into the secular PC view of "conversion therapy." That is not what the Bible says about Christian conversion

But Christian conversion is not conversion therapy. They are very, very different things.

Christian conversion would not, for example, include subjecting someone to intense, painful cold, while exposing them to homoerotic stimuli, so that they will learn to associate sexual arousal with pain. That is just one practice I know to have been used with teenagers in recent years.

Philip_B · Jan 22, 2021

OzSpen said:
PloverW,

Matt 28:18-20 (ESV) states:

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Since Christians are to make disciples of all nations, a fundamental is that a person must experience conversion before he or she is discipled. Christian discipleship means growth in Christ, not growth in physical and psychological violence.

Seems to me you have bought into the secular PC view of "conversion therapy." That is not what the Bible says about Christian conversion - even of homosexuals, adulterers, liars, thieves, idolaters, etc.

Oz

Your distinction between 'conversion' and 'being made a disciple' is unclear. In the Gospel we will read in Church Tomorrow Jesus says 'come and follow after me'. (Mark 1:14-20). To me that is very clear.

The proposed law does not ask Christians to stop being Christian. It does not propose that we may not proclaim the good news of the Kingdom. It does not even say that you can't say Homosexual Acts are Sinful. Sure we have had a level of controversy with a leading sportsperson has been made a Companion of the Order of Australia, whilst she holds strong and outspoken views on the subject, none the less she has not fallen foul of the proposed legislation.

The law in Australia has decriminalised Homosexual Acts. The law in Australia permits two people of the same gender to marry. We as the Church working within this community have a duty and a responsibility, as far as we are able, to work within the law. The Church cannot there carry out a marriage of someone previously married to some one of the same gender without their being either a death certificate or a decree absolute.

We are not being asked to stop proclaiming the Good News. We are not being called to stop recognising that we are made in the image and after the likeness of God. We are being called to stop engaging in or supporting those practices which the law has determined, on medical advice, do psychological and physical harm to our brothers and sisters in humanity. Personally I don't think that is a big ask, and it worries me that some people in the church need a law to stop them doing these things.

Abraham Lincoln suggested that God was against sin. The underlying truth of course is that God loves sinners. All of us!

PloverWing · Jan 22, 2021

OzSpen said:
Seems to me you have bought into the secular PC view of "conversion therapy." That is not what the Bible says about Christian conversion - even of homosexuals, adulterers, liars, thieves, idolaters, etc.

Paidiske is exactly correct. When we say "conversion therapy", we're not talking about Christian conversion. We're talking about a particular practice of psychiatric therapy designed to make a patient lose their ability to feel sexual arousal, through the repeated application of physical or psychological pain. The report that Paidiske linked to back in post #17 gives a good picture.

Religious conversion and conversion therapy are not at all the same thing. The two terms just happen to use the same word.

OzSpen · Jan 22, 2021

SilverBear said:
1 Cor 6 doesn't actually say anything about homosexuality. The inclusion of homosexuality is based on an unsupported translation of a Greek word that has no actual translation. Historically that same word has been translated to condemn masturbation, kidnapping, the use of prostitutes and father daughter incest.

This is false as you need to translate μαλακοί (malakoi) and ἀρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoitȇs) to determine if homosexual is in this verse:

1 Corinthians 6:9,

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men [The words men who have sex with men translate two Greek words that refer to the passive and active participants in homosexual acts]" (NIV).
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practise homosexuality [The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts] (ESV).
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners [μαλακοί], practicing homosexuals [ ἀρσενοκοίτης] (NET).

ho (sic) many homosexuals have you persoanlly (sic) killed?

When will you get an understanding that the OT was an Old Covenant for God's people, the Israelites, and these laws do not apply today. The New Testament does not make homosexuality a crime deserving capital punishment.

This was Jesus' view on sexual relationships: "He said, ‘That’s why a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife. The two will become one'" (NIRV).

Oz

SilverBear · Jan 22, 2021

OzSpen said:
SB,

As a male, were you born with XY chromosomes, XX chromosomes or XYT chromosomes?

Oz

do you think false witness becomes acceptable because you ask an baffling and irrelevant question or is this just an attempt to derail the thread?

SilverBear · Jan 22, 2021

OzSpen said:
PloverW,

Matt 28:18-20 (ESV) states:

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Since Christians are to make disciples of all nations, a fundamental is that a person must experience conversion before he or she is discipled. Christian discipleship means growth in Christ, not growth in physical and psychological violence.

Seems to me you have bought into the secular PC view of "conversion therapy." That is not what the Bible says about Christian conversion - even of homosexuals, adulterers, liars, thieves, idolaters, etc.

Oz

do you have any clue what conversion therapy is?

OzSpen · Jan 22, 2021

Philip_B said:
Your distinction between 'conversion' and 'being made a disciple' is unclear. In the Gospel we will read in Church Tomorrow Jesus says 'come and follow after me'. (Mark 1:14-20). To me that is very clear.

The proposed law does not ask Christians to stop being Christian. It does not propose that we may not proclaim the good news of the Kingdom. It does not even say that you can't say Homosexual Acts are Sinful. Sure we have had a level of controversy with a leading sportsperson has been made a Companion of the Order of Australia, whilst she holds strong and outspoken views on the subject, none the less she has not fallen foul of the proposed legislation.

The law in Australia has decriminalised Homosexual Acts. The law in Australia permits two people of the same gender to marry. We as the Church working within this community have a duty and a responsibility, as far as we are able, to work within the law. The Church cannot there carry out a marriage of someone previously married to some one of the same gender without their being either a death certificate or a decree absolute.

We are not being asked to stop proclaiming the Good News. We are not being called to stop recognising that we are made in the image and after the likeness of God. We are being called to stop engaging in or supporting those practices which the law has determined, on medical advice, do psychological and physical harm to our brothers and sisters in humanity. Personally I don't think that is a big ask, and it worries me that some people in the church need a law to stop them doing these things.

Abraham Lincoln suggested that God was against sin. The underlying truth of course is that God loves sinners. All of us!

Margaret Court (formerly Margaret Smith) and grand slam tennis champion is being slammed for her biblical views that marriage is between a man and a woman. Genesis 2:24 agrees with her; Jesus agrees with her (Matt 19:5); the Apostle Paul agreed with her (Eph 5:31). I agree with her for standing up for what the authoritative Scripture says.

The mass and social media promote the storm of opposition against her. This is fuelled by a PC, secular (godless) attitude.

Oz

OzSpen · Jan 22, 2021

SilverBear said:
do you think false witness becomes acceptable because you ask an baffling and irrelevant question or is this just an attempt to derail the thread?

SB,

I simply asked you a question. Why don't you answer it?

Oz

SilverBear · Jan 22, 2021

OzSpen said:
This is false as you need to translate μαλακοί (malakoi) and ἀρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoitȇs) to determine if homosexual is in this verse:

The Greek word arsenokoites has no known translation. Historically that same word has been translated to condemn masturbation, kidnapping, the use of prostitutes and father daughter incest.

1 Corinthians 6:9,

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men [The words men who have sex with men translate two Greek words that refer to the passive and active participants in homosexual acts]" (NIV).

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practise homosexuality [The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts] (ESV).

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners [μαλακοί], practicing homosexuals [ ἀρσενοκοίτης] (NET).

The meaning of compound words is not derived from the meaning of their root words.

A butterfly doesn't refer to levitating dairy products
A ladyfinger isn't a digit that has been chopped off of a woman
A cathouse isn't a place where felines live

When will you get an understanding that the OT was an Old Covenant for God's people, the Israelites, and these laws do not apply today. The New Testament does not make homosexuality a crime deserving capital punishment.

then why use the Leviticus verses to justify anti-gay hate?

This was Jesus' view on sexual relationships: "He said, ‘That’s why a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife. The two will become one'" (NIRV).

Oz

so who did Jesus marry?

OzSpen · Jan 22, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Is there a link to their accounts, so I can educate myself? If not what was said?

FaH,

I have been a youth, marriage and family counsellor for 33 years and am now retired. I've seen a number of people come to salvation through Christ alone, who have formerly been male or female homosexuals. Jesus saved them and they are going on in their relationship with the Lord.

One friend was in a lesbian relationship for 12 years and she has been redeemed. I direct you to my interview with Jeanette Howard, a redeemed lesbian - a converted lesbian, thanks to Jesus who changes lives. See: One woman’s journey out of lesbianism: An interview with Jeanette Howard.

I have more information in my article: A Christian discussion of homosexuality and sexuality.

Oz

OzSpen · Jan 22, 2021

PloverWing said:
Matthew 28 does not teach us to engage in the kind of physical and psychological violence that is found in conversion therapy.

Please tell us about your understanding of discipleship. Does it help us to grow in the Christian life and deal with behavioural issues?

rjs330 · Jan 22, 2021

kiwimac said:
If we spent as much time dealing compassionately WITH each other as we often do in judgement OF one another then perhaps Christians would not have the name of that we do.

Judgement is such a dirty word for us. But it shouldn't be. If Paul uses it, then it's okay to use for us too.

We need to get out of our own heads here. Judging is not bad when uses in a biblical sense. In fact it's good. But too often our own PRIDE gets in the way. "How dare you confront me about anything" is the cry of the prideful Christian. "Do you think your better than me!?"

Nonsense.

We also have the opposite problem as well. When we come to some WITH pride. With a haughtiness that says "I am better than you because I don't....".

BOTH attitudes are EQUALLY wrong.

When you come to me and tell me I am doing something against the word of God I should LISTEN. That is an attitude of humility.

And before I go to someone about what they are doing wrong I better check myself. Am I doing it out of love and concern or out of haughtiness and pride? If I am then I just need to keep my mouth shut.

So let's not get so freaked out over the word "judge". It's not a bad thing when done according to the word and way of God.

rjs330 · Jan 22, 2021

Philip_B said:
I think the point where I get hung up if that we seem to often identify this as singularly the worst of sins, ye even unforgivable if you listen to some, yet in the end sin is sin. Bishops mishandling the truth about parishes they are assigning clergy to, and mishandling the truth about clergy to the parishes they assign them to may be thought of as telling the truth carefully, or it might just be lying. Would you call this sin? Would you see this as a better sin or a worser sin than someone who is Gay and open about it. I don't want to say that it is not sin, as much as anything I don't understand enough about it.

The scripture that does sit most on my heart is the often recited line form the Lord's Prayer:

forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.

In terms of the function of the Church, be it mission or ministry, we need to be talking about Jesus a whole lot more, and dare I say it, what happens in someone else's bedroom a whole lot less.

When it comes to the subject of this thread, Gay Conversion Therapy being outlawed in Victoria, I support it. One of the reasons I support it is that it seems to me that much of the practice demeans the humanity of Gay people, and in so doing demeans the humanity of our whole society. Now we probably don't scientifically know absolutely if gayness is Nature or Nurture, or just a choice people make. Your arguments make some sense if it is simply choice, however if in some sense if it is Nature, and having spoken at depth to members of my own family who are now in single gender marriages, which certainly for them seems to be Nature, then surely we should be encouraging them to be the best person they can be.

Sometimes I think 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' was a whole lot easier for all of us.

I like what you have to say. I've said it often myself. Engaging in homosexual sex is no worse than any other sin. It's no worse than any sexual sin. And there are believers who have and do engage is sex outside of marriage. Are they better than those who engage in homosexual sex? Not at all.

And if we know the people are involved in premarital sex do we just boot them out of the church and treat the as a pariah? Heaven forbid!

We want them to come to reconciliation with Christ. The sin they are doing separates the relationship with Christ. It doesn't separate us from the love of God, but it does hinder the relationship, we don't want that for us or them.

rjs330 · Jan 22, 2021

Paidiske said:
But Christian conversion is not conversion therapy. They are very, very different things.

Christian conversion would not, for example, include subjecting someone to intense, painful cold, while exposing them to homoerotic stimuli, so that they will learn to associate sexual arousal with pain. That is just one practice I know to have been used with teenagers in recent years.

I think or at least hope all of us would abhor such treatment of an individual. That certainly is not conversion. Heaven help us!

Paidiske · Jan 22, 2021

rjs330 said:
I think or at least hope all of us would abhor such treatment of an individual. That certainly is not conversion. Heaven help us!

But that is what this bill is aimed at! Not all the other nonsense and scaremongering being brought up.

OzSpen · Jan 22, 2021

SilverBear said:
The Greek word arsenokoites has no known translation. Historically that same word has been translated to condemn masturbation, kidnapping, the use of prostitutes and father daughter incest.

SB,

That is not true. The Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon gives the meaning of arsenokoitēs as "a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite" (1957, 109).

"The closest meaning of arsenokoitai over five hundred years of translation was men who took the active role in non-procreative sex. Arsenokoitai did not define what we would call the sexual orientation of a person; it indicated the role played in the sexual act'' (source).

I find no NT evidence that Jesus married.

Oz

rjs330 · Jan 22, 2021

SilverBear said:
The Greek word arsenokoites has no known translation. Historically that same word has been translated to condemn masturbation, kidnapping, the use of prostitutes and father daughter incest.

The meaning of compound words is not derived from the meaning of their root words.

A butterfly doesn't refer to levitating dairy products
A ladyfinger isn't a digit that has been chopped off of a woman
A cathouse isn't a place where felines live

then why use the Leviticus verses to justify anti-gay hate?

so who did Jesus marry?

Paul was actually referring to the septuagint and the levitical verses. His words were deliberately chosen with a specific meaning behind them.

The word was used in ancient greek, but it is extremely rare. The septuagint and the Jewish translators are clear that this refers directly to man on man sex. Which isn't reference only to make homosexuality. It would apply to ANY man on man sex. As I've said before.

rjs330 · Jan 22, 2021

Paidiske said:
But that is what this bill is aimed at! Not all the other nonsense and scaremongering being brought up.

I will take your word for it. If the law is used in another way please let us know.

In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

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