What in theology prevent Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox from being simply "Christians"?

dzheremi said:

Didn't St. John serve as priest in Antioch before becoming archbishop of Constantinople?

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Indeed he did. And it was in Antioch where several of his most famous and controversial sermons were preached.

dzheremi said:

Ah, I see.



Makes sense. Didn't St. John serve as priest in Antioch before becoming archbishop of Constantinople?



It's been a long time since I corresponded with any Maronites, but I used to have an older Maronite friend with whom I sometimes corresponded about Church history and liturgical topics, and he once said (probably in response to my incessant needling him about why he wouldn't just become Syriac Orthodox, since he often lamented the state of the Maronite Church, and particularly in ways that made him seem 'envious' of how the Syriac Orthodox had preserved their liturgical patrimony better, i.e., "our liturgies USED to be intoned like Mor Behnam Jajjawi's, but not since ____" -- the Jesuits, or the civil war, or whatever) that one of the things that in his estimation separated the Maronites from the Syriac Orthodox is that the Maronites have a considerably stronger Edessan influence in some of their liturgy, by which he meant East Syrian. I can only assume that he had things like this in mind, though he didn't explain it further. Hmm.



Well this only makes sense, right? They were the apostles to the East Syrians. We don't do the same with the liturgy of St. Cyril/Coptic Mark, but it is common to call him "our apostle" in various contexts, since he is. Apparently, Fr. Shenouda Maher (a man who is greatly respected in matters of liturgy and Coptic history, as well as being an amazing priest) while still a deacon wrote a new Psali to St. Mark for the 1900th anniversary of his martyrdom that refers to him as "our apostle", though I don't know how widespread it is. I kinda hope it is, since the one example I've heard of his new Coptic hymns ("Rashi ensaw niwen") is really cool. A new Coptic hymn ~700 years after the 'death' of the language outside of the Church!

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By the way, your notes on the liturgy of St. Mark and of the Maronites are fascinating and fill me with a certain bliss. I also am envious of the Khiakh psalmody you get blessed with at this time of year. As good as some aspects of the Western Rite hymnody become in the Nativity Fast, for example, the O Antiphons, the Khiakh Psalmody is spectacular in terms of its high Christology and Mariology. The Coptic liturgy really goes out of its way, like few others (the Byzantine, Armenian and Syriac Orthodox) to stress the divinity of Christ and the mystery of the incarnation of God, which is unsurprising since the Church of Alexandria is indeed the Church of Sts. Athanasius the Apostolic and Cyril the Great, and the throne of St. Mark, the lion of the evangelists.

BobRyan said:

I don't know of any Bible text saying that John was a priest. However I am quite interested in that if someone has one.

Or is this a different John from the author of the Gospel of John and Revelation?

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This is St. John Chrysostom, d. 406, the Patriarch of Constantinople regarded as the greatest preacher of the post Nicene Church. Named for and a follower of, but not the same man, as the Beloved Disciple.

Alv Vatzdal said:

I've been growing up in Northern Europe, so as I was faced with conversion from Buddhism into Christianity I eventually met other Christians that told me of Christianity in a distinct Protestant flavor, but I didn't ever feel I was met with a God that first demanded of me to choose between one of 3 different Jesus. And I honestly think it is the same Jesus we all believe in. However tradition and theological disagreement have isolated us all into different pockets of belief, even if this is clearly against Christian tradition itself. I think we are unable to let go of a history where our forefathers have killed other people and themselves been killed for holding onto the distinct theological ideas we've inherited

I've found myself very drawn to "original" Christianity, and I think this is what everyone long for. A source of unpolluted truth. So I've seen Orthodox Christianity as a natural choice, but when I've tried to explore what it mean to be Orthodox I find myself confused because one does not simply say "I am Orthodox" and that's it, but there's various things that is needed to do to be part of this tradition, just like there seem to be ideas that I should for example re-baptize myself to be a uncontroversial Protestant and to be totally safe I should pray to get the gift of talking in tongues, and have seen that among Catholic and Orthodox is a very simple thing that caused a schism and these two are much more open in their longing to become one again.

But before I blunder into something that might break some kind of rules here, are there any single point in history we can track down where Protestantism was inevitable? And likewise in the east-west schism? And please, try to think carefully before writing answers here.

Try to explain in a way a child could understand, if that's possible.

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I consider my self protestant because I see a lot of the bible as being symbolic, there was a time, where Catholics believed that the bread and wine eaten at communion literally turns into Jesus's flesh and blood, called Transubstantiation.

Catholic also means all encompassing, because back when Christianity was illegal in Rome, Catholicism was intended to encompass all the pagan religions and make them more Christianized, so people would be less upset about Rome becoming Christian.

Martin Luther (no relation to MLK jr) started the protestant reformation because there was a time where you would "buy" your way into heaven. Martin Luther saw this as very corrupt.

All in all however, the path to God is an individual process, and some paths might help you get close to God, some may hinder, but there is no absolute for everyone.

Orthodox is a lot like the paint job on a car, there are catholic cars, there are protestant cars, but an orthodox car would be a normal color, i.e. true to tradition. An un-orthodox car would be painted in an unusual color, i.e. not true to tradition. Both protestants and Catholics can be either orthodox or un-orthodox, depending on how seriously they take the lessons.

For example: An orthodox Christian will go to church, and un-orthodox Christian might not think going to church is necessary for worshiping God, regardless if they are protestant or catholic.

Hope that helps.

A lot of the divergence and denominational struggles in the church has been more fueled by secular politics with a veneer of theological justification rather than genuine theological disagreements. Though these initial justifications that started as fairly minor points have grown into wide chasms as the polemics have gone on down the century. The biggest dividing line between protestants and the rest, justification by faith alone, is largely a matter of semantics when the typical positions are fully elaborated. But politics cannot be removed, struggles for the monarchies of France, Germany, and England led to bitter division between Catholics and protestants, language barriers such as the establishment of Latin in the 4th century led to particular theologians holding an enormous amount of sway not present in the East, and crusades against the Eastern church both authorized and unauthorized led to far more division between East and West than purely theological concerns. The politics of it all has led to bitterness and strife, as more often than not the question boils down not to who presents the more Biblical case but who can forcibly restrain those they disagree with.

Alex Reynolds said:

I consider my self protestant because I see a lot of the bible as being symbolic, there was a time, where Catholics believed that the bread and wine eaten at communion literally turns into Jesus's flesh and blood, called Transubstantiation.

Catholic also means all encompassing, because back when Christianity was illegal in Rome, Catholicism was intended to encompass all the pagan religions and make them more Christianized, so people would be less upset about Rome becoming Christian.

Martin Luther (no relation to MLK jr) started the protestant reformation because there was a time where you would "buy" your way into heaven. Martin Luther saw this as very corrupt.

All in all however, the path to God is an individual process, and some paths might help you get close to God, some may hinder, but there is no absolute for everyone.

Orthodox is a lot like the paint job on a car, there are catholic cars, there are protestant cars, but an orthodox car would be a normal color, i.e. true to tradition. An un-orthodox car would be painted in an unusual color, i.e. not true to tradition. Both protestants and Catholics can be either orthodox or un-orthodox, depending on how seriously they take the lessons.

For example: An orthodox Christian will go to church, and un-orthodox Christian might not think going to church is necessary for worshiping God, regardless if they are protestant or catholic.

Hope that helps.

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I think the OP was talking about Orthodox Christianity (as in Eastern Orthodox), rather than orthodox Christianity (lower case o, as you referenced).

All4Christ said:

I think the OP was talking about Orthodox Christianity (as in Eastern Orthodox), rather than orthodox Christianity (lower case o, as you referenced).

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Ahh I see, fair enough. However I did have a look, Catholic is the Christianization of the Roman pagan religions, and protestant was actually the protestors of the Catholics. I do not know about Eastern Orthodox but thank you for pointing that out.

All in all, makes little difference (to me spiritually at least) since Jews and Muslims are also Abrahamic faiths.

Alex Reynolds said:

Ahh I see, fair enough. However I did have a look, Catholic is the Christianization of the Roman pagan religions, and protestant was actually the protestors of the Catholics. I do not know about Eastern Orthodox but thank you for pointing that out.

All in all, makes little difference (to me spiritually at least) since Jews and Muslims are also Abrahamic faiths.

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No problem.

Short (and overly simplified) history - Catholics and Orthodox were one and the same at the start of Christianity. In 1054, the Catholic and Orthodox schismed. The Reformers and Protestants split off from the Catholic Church, and so on. (Note that there also was a schism with the Oriental Orthodox back in the fifth century).

Alex Reynolds said:

Catholic is the Christianization of the Roman pagan religions

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Yeah, nah. This is patently and demonstrably false. I suspect that any evidence you have will end up having its origin in Alexander Hislop’s faux history.

prodromos said:

Yeah, nah. This is patently and demonstrably false. I suspect that any evidence you have will end up having its origin in Alexander Hislop’s faux history.

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This is very true.

JohnDB said:

As the SDA among us argue for their particular single theologies....

The overriding thing keeping the rest of the Protestant/Evangelicals and the Catholics from joining together is the principle of symbiosis.

In 1Corinthians Paul talks about how woman was made for man and man was made for God...
But the relationship between is kinda glossed over today because of the term glory and the concept of symbiosis is lost on us today.

Man is to live symbiotically with woman.
Mankind is to live symbiotically with the Earth.
Mankind is not supposed to live without God...but does in a sinful state.

So when you have those who focus on celibacy for priests and nuns ministering to families and children it causes problems.
They don't have the requisite experience or lifestyle to minister to a large portion of the constituency. They really don't understand the symbiotic relationship.

And it's a core issue of fundamentals of God and man in relationship with each other "Tabernacling" with each other.

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That’s an entirely unscriptural approach given that Paul expresses the point repeatedly that virginity and celibacy are to be preferred to marriage. Holy Matrimony is still a blessed state, but Holy Celibacy moreso.

Alex Reynolds said:

All in all, makes little difference (to me spiritually at least) since Jews and Muslims are also Abrahamic faiths.

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It may be said that all three (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are Abrahamic faiths, but when the claimants wind up believing in different Gods, that's not insignificant.

Alv Vatzdal said:

I've been growing up in Northern Europe, so as I was faced with conversion from Buddhism into Christianity I eventually met other Christians that told me of Christianity in a distinct Protestant flavor, but I didn't ever feel I was met with a God that first demanded of me to choose between one of 3 different Jesus. And I honestly think it is the same Jesus we all believe in. However tradition and theological disagreement have isolated us all into different pockets of belief, even if this is clearly against Christian tradition itself. I think we are unable to let go of a history where our forefathers have killed other people and themselves been killed for holding onto the distinct theological ideas we've inherited

I've found myself very drawn to "original" Christianity, and I think this is what everyone long for. A source of unpolluted truth. So I've seen Orthodox Christianity as a natural choice, but when I've tried to explore what it mean to be Orthodox I find myself confused because one does not simply say "I am Orthodox" and that's it, but there's various things that is needed to do to be part of this tradition, just like there seem to be ideas that I should for example re-baptize myself to be a uncontroversial Protestant and to be totally safe I should pray to get the gift of talking in tongues, and have seen that among Catholic and Orthodox is a very simple thing that caused a schism and these two are much more open in their longing to become one again.

But before I blunder into something that might break some kind of rules here, are there any single point in history we can track down where Protestantism was inevitable? And likewise in the east-west schism? And please, try to think carefully before writing answers here.

Try to explain in a way a child could understand, if that's possible.

Click to expand...

Well I think it’s easier to understand that the Protestant rebellion was going to be inevitable due to the actions of the Roman Church during that time. I’m actually surprised that it didn’t happen in the late 12th century to be honest but it was a Catholic monk who recognized the teachings of the Bible were not being reflected by the church. Now I’m not a Protestant nor am I a supporter of reformed theology but I think it is easy to see that some sort of rebellion was inevitable at some point. As for the tensions in between the East & West that had been growing for centuries probably beginning with the addition of the filioque to the Nicene Creed by Rome in the 7th century if I’m not mistaken. I think the majority of the issues between the East & West could’ve been overlooked which for the most part they were until Rome’s claim to supreme Papal authority which was rejected by all of the other patriarchates and inevitably resulted in being the straw that broke the camel’s back between the Eastern and Western churches. Personally I tend to side with the East on this matter seeing that Rome’s claim wasn’t supported but instead rejected by all of the patriarchates and also considering the sanctioning of the inquisitions which followed shortly afterwards.

...

Albion said:

It may be said that all three (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are Abrahamic faiths, but when the claimants wind up believing in different Gods, that's not insignificant.

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Indeed. Orthodox Protestants, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Christians all worship the same God: the Father Almighty, the Son, begotten before all worlds, begotten not made who became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life.

Jews fail to understand the nature of the God they profess to worship and many believe in Kabbalah, which is a radical theological distortion and also extremely occult. Muslims believe in a God which is of absolute unity and is devoid of attributes, a God who is also neither Love nor Loving, unlike the Christian belief that God is Love. Muslims and Jews do believe they are worshipping the God of Abraham, and that surely counts for something, but the tragedy is they do not know Him.

Jeshu said:

The best is to leave all those religious beliefs for what they are and seek a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Love for God and neighbour gives Him away. Follow Him and what He says, not tradition, it is not the answer, they didn't bring God's peace or rest but our current socio-religous predicaments.

You need the Living Word, our Lord in The Spirit of love within your heart.

Isaiah 30:20-21 "Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”

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How?

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

An oath to sacramental life

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

God provides for everything:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He is the way we must follow!
He is the truth we must believe!
He is the life, life of grace thru the sacraments of the church in which we must live!

Abide in Christ and His church with grace and life provided by God thru the sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Eucharist: (holy communion)
Mt 26:26-39 Jn 6:51-58 1 Cor 11:23-25

Confession of sins:
Jn 20:23

Confirmation
Mt 17:27 Lk 22:32 acts 8:14-17
acts 14:22

Marriage:
Matt 19:4-6

Holy orders: (priesthood)
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru His priesthood in Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 10:1-8 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 acts 1:17 acts 6:4 acts 8:26
2 Cor 5:18 1 Tim 4:14 Eph 2:20

Extreme unction: (anointing with oil)
1 Tim 4:14 James 5:14

The one, holy, catholic, (universal) and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter and the apostles!

———

A sacrament is an outward efficacious sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Jesus Christ himself is the sacrament, as he gave his life to save mankind. His humanity is the outward sign or the instrument of his Divinity. It is through his humanity that the life of the Trinity comes to us as grace through the sacraments. It is Jesus Christ alone who mediates the sacraments to allow grace to flow to mankind.

Christ sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to inspire his Apostles and his Church to shepherd his flock after his Ascension into heaven. "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 17:18, 20:21). Jesus is the Head of his Body the Church (Colossians 1:18). The Church itself is a sacrament instituted by Christ to give grace. Jesus gave us his Body the Church to continue the works he performed during his earthly life. Grace given to us through the sacraments will help us lead a good life in this world and help save us for the Kingdom of Heaven.

The sacraments were instituted by Christ! The Church celebrates in her liturgy the Paschal mystery of Christ, his Passion, Sacrifice on the Cross, Resurrection, and Glorious Ascension. The Greek word μυστήριον or mystery in the Greek New Testament is translated into sacramentum in the Latin Vulgate Bible, from which we derive our English word sacrament (examples: Ephesians 1:9, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:27). The saving effects of Christ's Redemption on the Cross are communicated through the sacraments, especially in the liturgical celebration of the Eucharist.

Ephfourfive said:

How?

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Jesus calls us to have faith in Him which then brings us the Holy Spirit of God in our hearts who teaches us to love God and neighbour which translates to God the son and God the Father making their dwelling in us, as we do the loving.

When we have Jesus in our hearts then we can have a personal relationship with The Living Word dwelling in us. Jesus is my Hero and teaches me every day to love God and neighbour and cleanses my heart from sin. i don't need to serve tradition to get to Him but can love and serve Jesus everyday through the Holy Spirit who knows Jesus and makes Him known.

John 14:15-17
"If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

John 14:23
"Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Jeshu said:

Jesus calls us to have faith in Him which then brings us the Holy Spirit of God in our hearts who teaches us to love God and neighbour which translates to God the son and God the Father making their dwelling in us, as we do the loving.

When we have Jesus in our hearts then we can have a personal relationship with The Living Word dwelling in us. Jesus is my Hero and teaches me every day to love God and neighbour and cleanses my heart from sin. i don't need to serve tradition to get to Him but can love and serve Jesus everyday through the Holy Spirit who knows Jesus and makes Him known.

John 14:15-17
"If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

John 14:23
"Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

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And baptism and the church?